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Confused About Is/clan


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#1 Sinkarma

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 02:15 AM

So I've been battling to try understand what exactly is the whole inner sphere mechs/ clan mechs differences and now I've been thrown a curveball in the form of something called clan battle mech?
Okay what I understand is clan stuff is lighter and longer ranged but things like AC-20 fire bursts of shells instead of one big shell.
Lighter but more rigged for long range DPS?
Also most can only upgrade only endo steel or ferrous and cannot change out their engines but can switch around their arms and such...
I also see some clan mechs have fixed heat sinks.

But what is a Clan-battle-mech?
From what I see its a clan mech that can upgrade and change engines like a inner sphere mech but can't change arms but still has the lighter and longer range weapons?

And isn't clan mechs overpowered cause they can mount more weapons cause their weapons are lighter and in so are capable of more damage? Also their xl engines don't kill them if one side torso is blown off so doesn't that mean they have much more survivability?

To be honest I am just trying to learn the pros/cons between the 3 things
I'll be sticking to inner sphere mechs cause the first mech I felt comfortable in was a battle-master plus I don't like how the clan AC-## all shoot bursts instead of how the inner-sphere shoot big shells.

partly cause I have some lag and having to lay down a full swarm of rounds on a moving target is difficult and its easier to have 1 derp and if it hits its the full damage.

But I am kinda sad cause there is no inner sphere ultra-AC-2 or 10

Any help from people to check if I understand things correctly would be very much appreciated.

#2 Tier5 Kerensky

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 02:58 AM

That's a huge question.

There are IS battlemechs, Clan omnimechs and Clan battlemechs.

Clan omnimechs can change hand, side torso, head and leg omnipods, which deside weapon&equipment hardpoints. They can't change engine or "upgrades"(endo and ferro). Some of have both endo and ferro, some other, few have neither. Well at least Dire Wolf has neither, haven't seen others.

All omnimechs have fairly high XL engine. XL engine make Clan mechs generally faster, specially for heavies and assults, not survive better, as comparable IS mechs usually don't have XL engine. Clan Endo and Ferro take 7 critital slots intead of 14 of IS.

Clan Battlemechs are named *** IIC except Kodiak is just Kodiak. They are just like IS battlemechs except have Clan tech.

And yes the weapons and equipment are across the board lighter. They are somewhat balanced by other factors.

#3 Hunka Junk

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:33 AM

Clan stuff is hotter but is generally longer ranged.

#4 Bohxim

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 04:29 AM

The upcoming supernova seems to be 1 too

#5 Dalziel Hasek Davion

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:10 AM

Hello there Sinkarma!

Types of 'Mech

In MWO currently there are three types of 'Mech.

Inner Sphere (IS). The basic 'Mech type. Each chassis-variant has a fixed weapon hardpoints (including numbers of tubes for missiles), and can mount IS weapons and equipment. The engine can be changed within limits (each chassis-variant has a maximum rating that can be used). XL engines are optional. Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous technology are optional. Inner Sphere 'Mechs sometime get Quirks, which can give some chassis-variants substantial bonuses for certain types of equipment, performance, or can make them a bit more robust.

Clan. Each chassis-variant has a fixed weapon hardpoints (including numbers of tubes for missiles), and can mount Clan weapons and equipment. XL engines are optional. Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous technology are optional. Clan technology like ES and FF and XL engines are more compact (take fewer critical 'slots').

Clan: Omni. Each Omni chassis is divided into Omnipods based on the 'Mech 'hit locations'. Each variant comes with the Omnipods for that variant, but the pods can be swapped between variants to alter the weapon hardpoints. However, the XL engine it comes with is fixed and there may be other fixed equipment (jump jets, for example). Flexibility of weapon hardpoint comes with inflexibility in other areas. Can mount clan weapons.

Engines

In the tabletop game, if a 'Mech's engine takes three critical hits, then the 'Mech is destroyed. If a 'Mech's body part is destroyed (eg. side torso) then you lose every piece of equipment in that location. Inner Sphere XL engines had three criticals in side torsos. This meant that any IS 'Mech running an IS XL engine would be destroyed if it lost its side torso.

Clan XL engines only put two critical engine slots in the side torso and so could survive the loss of one side torso, even with an XL engine. It cannot survive the loss of both side torsos however.

Inner sphere 'Mechs running standard engines are thus more robust in that they can lose both side torsos and, theoretically, keep running. However, the number of remaining weapons on most chassis-variants with both side torsos gone will be few. There are only three potential critical slots left available for weapons in this case - two in the CT and one in the head. Chassis-variants with weapon hardpoints in these locations offer a so-called "zombie build" by mounting weapons here. An energy slot in the CT might allow for a large laser, or LPL, but nothing bigger than that.

Zombie builds can work for some Light/Medium chassis-variants like the Centurion or Hunchback. Heavy and assault 'Mechs will lose so much of their proportional firepower if they lose both STs, that it might be argued they don't make for the ideal zombie 'Mech.

Weapons

In general clan weapons are lighter, longer range, require fewer critical slots. There is also a wider variety of high-tech weapons (streak, LBX, UAC etc.). The tabletop game did little to balance this. MWO, however does introduce some differences in the way the weapons work in-game.

Clan LRM launchers launch missiles in a stream, rather than a lump. This might make them easier to avoid/shoot down.
Clan lasers tend to have a higher beam duration, making it harder to get all of the damage on one section of the target. They run hotter, but offer higher potential damage.
Clan ACs fire salvos, making it harder to get all of the damage on one section of the target.
Clan SRMs do lower damage per missile
Clan missiles and ACs generally have lower "impulse" (ie. less cockpit shake)

Heat sinks

Clan double heat sinks use two, rather than the three critical slots that IS DHS use. Clan DHS have a greater rate of heat dissipation (0.15 vs 0.14 per sink), but lower heat capacity (1.1 versus 1.5). This means Clan 'Mechs and Omnis using DHS reach their heat capacity sooner, but can cool down quicker than IS 'Mechs using IS DHS. This makes it favourable for IS 'Mechs to get into protected brawl situations with Clan 'Mechs because they should be able to sustain a higher rate of fire if they can force the clanner to keep firing. If they try to trade with Clan 'Mechs, giving the (filthy) clanner time to cool between shots, then the limitations of range, the additional clan firepower and targeting systems and their superior cooling rate will probably give them the edge.

Other equipment

Most clan equipment is lighter and many use fewer critical slots. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Clan 'Mechs all come with CASE (Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment), which prevents ammo explosions from travelling between compartments. IS 'Mechs don't come with this as standard. IS 'Mechs often store ammo in the legs and head, whereas Clan 'Mechs will often have it in the same area as the weapon it feeds, or spread across the torso areas and in the arms.

For 1t and 1 critical slot, Clan 'Mechs can benefit from targeting computers which give a variety of benefits.

Clan active probe offers greater range than the BAP.

The future

If MWO develops along the same lines as the tabletop version, then eventually, the Inner Sphere start developing Omnimech designs as well. Most of them look terrible, though.

#6 Nerokar

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 04:43 AM

Dalziel Hazek Davion said nearly everything. There is one thing I would like to add:
Difference in the Ghost Heat penalties.

Do you know this mechanic? You can fire only limited count of weaons in the same group/type at same time.
Otherwise your mech gets more heat.

Clan weapons have sometimes not the same groups and weapon counts as IS counterparts.

IS can fire 3 LPL without penalty. Clan only 2 of CLPL without triggering ghost heat.
Or theoretically a clan mech could fire 6x c ersl OR c spl, wait 0,5 sec and fire next 6 to avoid penalties.
An IS mech could alphastrike its IS counterparts without penalties at all.
Here is the Link with GH Table:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

This mechanic will be replaced "soon" with Energy Drain.
It will change many things but for now you should know how Ghost Heat works.

#7 jss78

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:21 AM

To understand IS battlemechs, Clan battlemechs, and Clan Omnimechs, it might be easier to explain the historical context.

In the 2700s the IS was living its heyday, united in a single Star League. The IS of this day had battlemechs, and the best of them (say elite Star League units) had advanced technologies like Endo, Ferro, DHS, IS XL engines.

Then Star League collapsed in late 2700s. The Star League Defence Forces decided to leave the IS rather than live among the ruins of the Star League, and settled new worlds in the Deep Periphery. There, they would eventually evolve into the Clans. They took with them a ton of Star League era military hardware, including battlemechs.

During their long absence, the SLDF-turned-clans continued to refine 'mech technology, developing two key advances:

- omnimechs, with modular arm/torso/leg components which could be replaced to customise the 'mech with far greater flexibility
- various new technologies such as cXL

So the clans might be running either battlemechs -- to various degrees upgraded with new clan tech -- or omnimechs, their own invention.

Meanwhile, IS spent the next centuries warring amongst themselves, and technology stagnated. IS continued to use battlemechs, but various advanced technologies were lost and forgotten. Stuff like XL engines, Endo, Ferro, DHS were only seen in incredibly rare Star League -era 'mechs (and in the very secret military caches of ComStar who, unbeknownst to most, were far more than a communications network...).

So that's the origin of the three different basic 'mech types. Starting in ca. 3020s, you'd finally get a rather rapid (historically speaking) period of technological convergence between clans and IS, with IS rediscovering various lost technologies. IS would eventually -- right around them time where we're currently in MWO -- manage to reverse engineer clan 'tech, and produce the first IS omnimechs.

Gameplay-wise ... the clan 'mechs are supposed to be far superior to IS, during the early days of the clan invasion. IS is supposed to make up for this with numbers and underhanded tactics. Now, this was always a problem for MWO, because as a death-match FPS, we expect all 'mechs to be about equally "viable". So PGI has had to come up with stuff like quirks to level the playing field. It's pretty much the most difficult period for balancing -- either focusing on IS prior to clan invasion, or after the technological convergence was complete, would've been far easier.

Edited by jss78, 24 October 2016 - 05:26 AM.


#8 Koniving

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:45 PM

View PostSinkarma, on 23 October 2016 - 02:15 AM, said:

So I've been battling to try understand what exactly is the whole inner sphere mechs/ clan mechs differences and now I've been thrown a curveball in the form of something called clan battle mech?
Okay what I understand is clan stuff is lighter and longer ranged but things like AC-20 fire bursts of shells instead of one big shell.
Lighter but more rigged for long range DPS?
Also most can only upgrade only endo steel or ferrous and cannot change out their engines but can switch around their arms and such...
I also see some clan mechs have fixed heat sinks.

But what is a Clan-battle-mech?
From what I see its a clan mech that can upgrade and change engines like a inner sphere mech but can't change arms but still has the lighter and longer range weapons?

And isn't clan mechs overpowered cause they can mount more weapons cause their weapons are lighter and in so are capable of more damage? Also their xl engines don't kill them if one side torso is blown off so doesn't that mean they have much more survivability?

To be honest I am just trying to learn the pros/cons between the 3 things
I'll be sticking to inner sphere mechs cause the first mech I felt comfortable in was a battle-master plus I don't like how the clan AC-## all shoot bursts instead of how the inner-sphere shoot big shells.

partly cause I have some lag and having to lay down a full swarm of rounds on a moving target is difficult and its easier to have 1 derp and if it hits its the full damage.

But I am kinda sad cause there is no inner sphere ultra-AC-2 or 10

Any help from people to check if I understand things correctly would be very much appreciated.


Okay, first I should ask are you wanting to know strictly in the sense of this game... or overall?

In the sense of this game, Clan weapons are usually 1-3 tons lighter than IS counter parts, often have longer range, and strictly speaking for this game all non-missile Clan weapons require more "face time" and "time on target". Clan launchers are half the weight of IS counter parts, including IS counter parts not yet in the game, and have equal range except for Streak launchers which have longer range. Honestly I think Streaks should fire their missiles in sequence like Clan LRMs but we'll save opinions for another time. Clan energy weapons typically have the added benefit of additional damage potential. Tapping that requires more time on target however and it is hard to make good use of it.

Clan Omnimechs -- and in the future IS Omnis as well -- have parts that are "locked", these include source-specific pieces of equipment such as MASC, specific heatsinks, etc., as well as engine, structure and armor types. Their armor allocation is also locked in source material and unalterable however that wouldn't work well in MWO so that got left out. PGI has added that jumpjets are to be locked as well. In exchange for this, you can change and customize the hardpoints on them within a selection of interchangeable body parts. (This differs a bit from the lore but we're sticking to MWO here). In making these changes on some Omnimechs, you can also customize your quirks by choosing specific body parts that contain those quirks.

Clan and IS Battlemechs do not have the above restrictions. However hardpoints are absolute and cannot be changed.

Balancing the IS are a number of factors, including but not limited to... significantly higher PPFLD across the board. The lack of "burst" or additional "beam" time on its direct fire weaponry allows the IS weapons to be able to shoot faster as cooldown doesn't start until the burst/beam is done. This is before quirks even are taken into account, which when they are range issues are often somewhat mitigated and/or weapons shoot even faster.
For example the typical UAC/20 might churn out 100 damage in about 9 seconds including burst times.
The typical unquirked AC/20 which does not have a double fire mechanic, will get out 60 damage in 8 seconds.
The usual quirks for ballistic fire rate will get it to make that 60 damage in 6.8 seconds.
A dedicated quirk can bump that between 6 seconds or in the absolute best case quirk, 60 damage in 4 seconds.

Unlike the UAC/20 which needs 4 shots to do 20 damage, in the form of 5, 5, 5, 5...
the IS AC/20 fires a single projectile that instantly does a minimum of 20 damage and if any of that applies after armor is gone, it could do up to 29 total physical damage (assuming a successful triple crit which is 60 component damage), all in one spot for a single projectile.
The UAC/20 can only do crit component damage of up to 15 per bullet (and 7.25 maximum structure damage per bullet) and more often than not will either fail to do so or just get five component damage which means the bullet will do between just 5 or 5.75 damage to structure.

Ultimately... IS weapons are seriously OP... if you can get close enough to use them.
That's the big issue... Most people can't get close enough. As such, many believe the two sides are pretty well balanced. I'm a bit on the fence, and my preference for IS mechs and weapons is a bit influenced by the facts that IS weapons are far more efficient and that the IS has the only weapon pairing that will instantaneously kill any mech on any side, regardless of weight class; a pairing so deadly that it is the only weapon punished with 600% additional ghost heat, while the next most punished weapon combination only gets 40% additional ghost heat.

Far as engines, Clans generally have larger and thusly easier to destroy side torsos and the thermal punishments after losing a side torso combined with the additional heat for Clan weapons... is crippling enough to accidentally suicide if you're not careful. (Personal opinion; it still isn't as crippling as Battletech's punishment for the same scenario when using level three rules and heatsink taxing.)

Everything here of course is entirely exclusive to MWO as a game.

If you want to know the differences outside of MWO, as in the source game Battletech or the lore I'd be happy to provide those differences too.

Edited by Koniving, 24 October 2016 - 03:30 PM.


#9 Sinkarma

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 03:36 AM

Oh wow there is so much to read @,,,,,@
Thank you people for posting this really helps.
I also appreciate the bits that are related to the lore and not just MWO.

I really like lore

But Now I think I am much less confused. And I think I'll definitely be staying with my IS mechs... that clan range looks inviting but the heat issues doesn't. Plus now that someone explained the disadvantages of clan XL engines I feel a lot better. just a lil sad that the clan mechs all have such snazzy blue interfaces ;....; clan op! nerf clan interface! :P

#10 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:12 AM

Quote

In the tabletop game, if a 'Mech's engine takes three critical hits, then the 'Mech is destroyed. If a 'Mech's body part is destroyed (eg. side torso) then you lose every piece of equipment in that location. Inner Sphere XL engines had three criticals in side torsos. This meant that any IS 'Mech running an IS XL engine would be destroyed if it lost its side torso.

Clan XL engines only put two critical engine slots in the side torso and so could survive the loss of one side torso, even with an XL engine. It cannot survive the loss of both side torsos however.

Inner sphere 'Mechs running standard engines are thus more robust in that they can lose both side torsos and, theoretically, keep running. However, the number of remaining weapons on most chassis-variants with both side torsos gone will be few. There are only three potential critical slots left available for weapons in this case - two in the CT and one in the head. Chassis-variants with weapon hardpoints in these locations offer a so-called "zombie build" by mounting weapons here. An energy slot in the CT might allow for a large laser, or LPL, but nothing bigger than that.


Quote

Plus now that someone explained the disadvantages of clan XL engines I feel a lot better.


Actually Clan XL engine is the best of both worlds. If there cross tech was available 99% of the IS players would switch to cXL while none of the Clans would take the STD engine in their Omnimechs, though one of the Clan battlemechs could and do use a STD engine to fit 2xGauss Rifles in the side torso, the Kodiak 3.

A 300 engine rating
is/clan STD engine = 25 tons - Kill mech by destroying it w/headshot / both legs / center torso

XL engines are lighter, allowing a mech to field more and/or heavier weapons and increased speed, valuable when engaging or disengaging the enemy.

isXL engine = 15.5 tons - Kill by destroying it w/headshot / both legs / center torso / ONEside torso
cXL engine = 15.5 tons - kill by destroying it w/headshot / both legs / center torso / both side torso

Most of the IS battlemechs comes stock with a STD engine. A few Heros/etc do come with an isXL engine. An isXL engine makes the battlemech a glass battlemech, in that his opponent only has to target and destroy ONE side torso instead of two. In MWO there are not actual engine crits like the board game has. In the board game a mech is disabled if it has 3 engine crits, be one crit in the RT, one crit in the CT and the final engine crit in the LT without destroying the engine sections. imho, that is the biggest imbalance between the two techs.

Corrected - bad copy/paste!!

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 25 October 2016 - 04:00 PM.


#11 Rogue Jedi

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 08:40 AM

Tarl got the XL engine types confused, an IS Mech with an XL engine goes down to loosing 1 side torso, a Clan XL survives loosing 1 side albeit with some mobility and heat penalties

Bottom line is the Clan XL engine makes for a far more durable Mech than the IS XL but the Standard engine (same stats for Clan or IS) is the ultimate engine for durability

#12 Void Angel

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:23 PM

It bears mentioning that the effective durability of an XL-equipped Inner Sphere Battlemech depends a lot on its shape. My Shadowhawk 2H runs an XL engine quite well - Hunchbacks, not so much.

#13 S 0 L E N Y A

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:52 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 25 October 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

It bears mentioning that the effective durability of an XL-equipped Inner Sphere Battlemech depends a lot on its shape. My Shadowhawk 2H runs an XL engine quite well - Hunchbacks, not so much.


correct. Not just the shape per se, but rather where PGI has determined the mechs hit boxes to be.

Some mechs are very good at shielding and spreading damage, others not so much.

#14 Koniving

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:04 PM

View PostSinkarma, on 25 October 2016 - 03:36 AM, said:

Thank you people for posting this really helps.
I also appreciate the bits that are related to the lore and not just MWO.

I really like lore


Gimme a bit of time and I'll share the lore about the same things, which will give some insight as to why things are the way they are... and what PGI got right versus what PGI got wrong either due to lack of knowing or due to "gameplay balance" or due to their personal preference. It's a fair bit of the three.

For example ACs being big tank cannons instead of large caliber autocannons was a personal preference that PGI's CEO wanted. That guns be big and feel big.... though because of that the concept of a cannon that weighs 14 tons, fires a cannon shell that is 570 lbs, and only has a full effective range of 270 meters and is slower than a bow and arrow...makes virtually no sense. And if you ever wondered that, it's because that isn't how it is supposed to go. The ranges in the source material (Battletech) are "expected accurate ranges" in which "the average gunner can be expected to consistently land hits in a tight firing group on a stationary target approximately 12 meters tall or long without undue difficulty." Except in the case of lasers, in which it really is the expected range to both hit and be fully effective without diminishing returns.

The real range of an autocannon in Battletech is up to 2,000 meters, however the likelihood of actually hitting your intended target, short of it being a warship or dropship of significant size, is so close to non-existent that well... lets put it this way, every army in the world rates weapons for both "effective" (aka accurate and usable), "maximum effective" and finally "maximum" range. The maximum range is how far it will go, with zero expectancy to actually hit what you wanted. So yeah.

Edited by Koniving, 26 October 2016 - 12:09 PM.


#15 Void Angel

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:37 PM

And a larger-caliber autocannon having a shorter effective range is exactly opposite of how that stuff really works - but they needed to balance the weapons, and it's 80s science fantasy, so...

#16 S 0 L E N Y A

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:39 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 26 October 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

And a larger-caliber autocannon having a shorter effective range is exactly opposite of how that stuff really works - but they needed to balance the weapons, and it's 80s science fantasy, so...


kinda sorta. Going to depend on a lot of other factors as well. Ballistics are not THAT simple.
45 > 22, but 45ACP only has a small fraction of the effective range of .223 remington.

Also, keep in mind that as per lore/table top "ACX" is not a specific type of weapon, but rather a classification of a weapon that can deal out X damage at Y range. So a single AC may a single barrel large caliber weapon, it could also be a battery of smaller caliber weapons linked together or having a higher cyclic rate.

Bottom line, if you can suspend your belief enough to swallow the concept that a giant robotic tank is the premier form of a modern combat, then believing a little fluff about how autocannons work in game should not be that hard.

#17 Void Angel

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 02:06 PM

Bullet weight, barrel length, and how much gunpowder you shove into the cartridge have an effect as well. But there's a reason that the M249 SAW doesn't have anywhere near the effective (or maximum) range of the M2 Browning, even though they're the same general kind of weapon. And - while the Battletech flavor text certainly indicates that the damage rating isn't indicative of actual caliber - the destructive power of the weapon with the longer effective range is greater than the shorter-ranged, lighter shells, which was what I was getting at.

As for suspension of disbelief, well... that's almost my point. =) Letting fluff and "how it's supposed to work" get in the way of a good game is impractical and silly.

Edited by Void Angel, 26 October 2016 - 02:21 PM.


#18 Void Angel

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 02:16 PM

Actually, I screwed up when I double-checked my numbers. Hang on... Maximum and effective ranges are both greater for larger calibers within a weapon class, in general.

Edited by Void Angel, 26 October 2016 - 02:18 PM.


#19 Koniving

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 03:27 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 26 October 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

And a larger-caliber autocannon having a shorter effective range is exactly opposite of how that stuff really works - but they needed to balance the weapons, and it's 80s science fantasy, so...

Technically, BT does have that factor correct.
Take Mech Rifles -- which actually are based on 21st century tank cannons.

The Light Rifle has the shortest accurate range, and can do 3 damage in a single shot against structure, but it isn't sufficient to penetrate armor of a BAR (Barrier Armor Rating) above 7, and Mechs and most tanks have a BAR of 10 by the 2900s or earlier. Light Rifles are very light, too, between an AC/2 and a medium pulse laser.

The Medium Rifle has longer accurate range, can do up to 3 damage against armor with a BAR of 10, but 6 against structure and armor of a BAR of 7 or less.

Then finally the Heavy Rifle (given at end) has the longest accurate range of the Rifle family. The only example I've found in the novels (for the 2900 to 3050 time period that I'm reading into) lists the Heavy Rifle as 190mm (where the largest IS AC/20 is 185mm), specifically has it as a slow firing, single shot weapon that had to be manually reloaded by the mech carrying it. On impact it delivers a total of 9 damage (BAR 7 or lower as well as against structure) or against more modern armor the damage is 6. Higher than an AC/5, though the weapon is only 8 tons as well, with equal accurate range and fewer uses per ton. It is worth noting the largest caliber AC/5s come in is 120mm, which is also the most common caliber for ACs 5, 10, and 20. (AC/2s don't go above 90mm).

So smallest Rifles have the shortest range and Largest rifles have the longest range, and the largest Rifle is of a larger caliber than the biggest Inner Sphere AC/20.
Spoiler

And yet, the ACs have it backwards...

The reason is that the ACs are generalized as "giant machine guns."
The GM Whirlwind/5 of the Marauder 3D is considered to be "painfully slow" at a firing rate of 3 to 4 shots per second (MWO has its AC/5 at 1 shot every 1.5 seconds; even with the quirks and stuff it still doesn't go down to more than 2 every second, and the UAC/5 still can't get to 3 shots per second). However, in Battletech most mechs have half the armor and half the structure of MWO, yet live considerably longer. BT handles this by having the shots scatter through dice, however this is supposed to handle dodging, blocking, aim difficulties and cover...while keeping in mind that we're people with lives and we can't throw dice to account for every single shot that could possibly be fired (some AC/20s pump out 100 shots in a single second; looking at you Pontiac 100). So while the tabletop is heavily FLD (front loaded damage), and MWO is PP (pinpoint) FLD, actual Battletech lore is neither of these. That heavy caliber AC/5 of 120mm awesomeness, is pumping 3-4 shells per second and those 3-4 shells actually deliver approximately 1.67 damage per shell. All of which for only a single unit of heat.

GM Whirlwind/5's actual stats in Weapon Variant specific gameplay. (One variant of the largest possible caliber to find AC/5s in). Shoots 3 shots per second (but requires 3 seconds to change cassettes/magazines; that detail is only important if you have an extended magazine quirk in BT).
Standard AC/5 stats (this is generic for "something in the category") (includes any variant from the 40mm to the 120mm and treats them as 'generically the same' to simplify gameplay, can shoot anywhere from 3 minimum to a little over 20 shots in known examples; Battletech the computer game by Harebrained has it firing exactly 25 shots.)
Heavy Rifle stats (generic stats for "something in the category"). 1 shot, all the damage.

All three weapons, 8 tons.
Posted ImageNote: This article is dated but was used as the basis for the AC explanation in the 2006 tech manual... The article is written in 1987, while the game was still pretty fresh and really new which is why I favor it as some might say "but that's just a new company saying it". Nope, been that way since well before the 90s.
What has changed since then... is the caliber range for ACs was changed from 20mm minimum (instead of 30mm) to 203mm max (instead of 185mm).
Rifles on the other hand are still 1 to 2 shot weapons in 10 second time slices. Unlike standard and UACs which take a jam penalty risk, Rifles take an accuracy penalty on the second shot if you try to fire them twice in a single turn in level 3 rules. Far better than permajam, that's for sure.

Edit:. If ACs just shoot a lot more -- and while I failed to mention it the AC 5 range may be 40 to 120mm, the ac/10 range is 80 to 120mm -- then what is the difference between ac/5, UAC/5 and ac/10 if all of them could do ten damage in a 10 second time slice?
An ac/5 is expected to do 5 damage.. UAC/5, which for the IS is one ton heavier has an ultra fire mode to double the rate but malfunction rates are noticeable and could jam the weapon. You can keep an ac/5 firing and "nearly" double it's output but the chance for failure is much higher, like melted/warped barrel or other issues.
So what about the ac/10? This 12 ton monstrosity is intended to fire At Least twice as fast as the ac/5 for any identical caliber between the two versions and can, if pushed to its limits, fire as fast as the expected rate of an equal caliber ac/20.
What I don't get is these guns pay for their firing rate gains when pushed in jam risks, while only the Rifles pay for double shots in accuracy. However I think part of this is that ACs are already punished in range for their firing rates and adding more across ten seconds wouldn't really make it any worse. Furthermore, you can always adjust and correct the aim of a fully automatic or multi-burst firing weapon... but once you fire a bolt action rifle you can't correct before the reload, and you have to lower, prep and raise a bolt action rifle back into position, accounting for part of the accuracy penalty for Mech Rifles.
Whelp, the ac/5 would have the hardest time doing this.

Edited by Koniving, 26 October 2016 - 04:07 PM.


#20 Koniving

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:43 PM

So Void, while normal weapons of similar firing rates get better accurate and max ranges, the effective accurate range deteriorates due to increases in firing rate among similar calibers (basically double going from 5 to 10, or quadruple going from 5 to 20), or in the case of blatant size increase, well here is 203mm... great range in a stable platform with lots of propellant and a long barrel and a stable platform, however mechs are not stable stationary platforms, and ACs specifically state they use significantly less propellant and smaller projectiles than Rifle shells to help facilitate their firing rates.



Of interesting note, me and several other lore nuts debated long and hard over every interpretation of the LB-X and what seems agreeable is that they have more propellant than ACs, their standard shells are probably slower firing and heavier hitting than regular ac ammo, so closer to but not quite rifle shells... and their cluster ammo while debatable if they fragment in the barrel or after firing (there is documentation agreeing with both methods), the cluster shot does in fact explode on contact akin to cluster bombs from a similarly loaded missile.







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