137 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

In terms of enjoyment, i simply do not drive dires because i find them extremely unpleasant to play, they are just so freakishly clumsy - im actually fine with the levels of agility we have, though some agility quirks are a bit out of control. i do not think that engine size should be decoupled from agility because i dont think straight line speed is worth all that much in comparison and it would massively devalue large engines, so the effect on the game would be mechs being much slower, much less agile and with much more firepower - not really a good result. boom.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

Go get in like a Mauler or Atlas, THATS how heavy and assaults should handle

Which one? Atlases have large agility quirks and with the 350 engine commonly used are actually a chunk more agile than a Kodiak with a 400 engine.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

So you want mediums and lights to be super worthless? The Mauler is still probably the second strongest assault and still one of the strongest mechs in the game and you want to nerf its competitors in the lighter weight classes, just lol.

No, im just sayin, you wanna be real, the lights in this game would handle more like a Warhawk then like these Dragonball Z supermen thye do now. No, it wouldnt actually turn 360 in 1 1/2 seconds. It wouldnt traverse its torso 180 degrees in 0.75s.

It would take the light about 3s to traverse its turret 180, while the Mauler would probably take about 7-8s to traverse the turret, while the legs might take about the long as well. Mediums would probably be in the 4-5s range and heavies being in the 5-7s range as well.

Leg traverse would probably be in the 2s range for lights and 4-5s range for assaults, with the others being middle of the road. In the end, it would be faster to simply turn the legs then to turn the turret.

Widowmaker1981, on 27 October 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Which one? Atlases have large agility quirks and with the 350 engine commonly used are actually a chunk more agile than a Kodiak with a 400 engine.

A Stock one. The Mauler actually takes a few seconds to traverse left and right. Same with the Atlas.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 27 October 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

means we all immediately jump back to the Bad Old Days of the toaster pastry - not in that everyone will pop their tarts, but in that everyone will use the absolute smallest engine they can possibly get away with in order to fit more damage on their machine.

No they won't, or did you forget that after the Victor was introduced the meta switched right back to BESM? Actually, even with the Highlanders I believe people were running XL325s because of how large CTs were on those things. There has never been an extended period in this game where BESM has not been in full effect, and this definitely includes the days of the Lunchback in Closed Beta.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

No, im just sayin, you wanna be real, the lights in this game would handle more like a Warhawk then like these Dragonball Z supermen thye do now.

They rely on that agility right now to even be remotely useful, so we shouldn't ever go this route, ever.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

There's also considerations to projectile/missile speed as well.

Yes, but moreso for ballistics and PPCs than for SRMs. A reduced speed of projectile will increased exposure time for a target at a given range due to increased uncertainty of a hit. It indirectly impacts the rate of fire, too.

As long as you can't really get away with bringing a mostly homogeneous team *coughMWOWCcough*, it should be fine.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

They rely on that agility right now to even be remotely useful, so we shouldn't ever go this route, ever.

Only because people dont even want to consider things like actual target acquisition time, or anything but pin point shooting, all of which would be more realistic, which would in turn allow mechs to move more like mechs, and lights could be useful without needing to move like Warframe Manics....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

Only because people dont even want to consider things like actual target acquisition time, or anything but pin point shooting

Target acquisition time has no impact on firing weapons, visuals are good enough for that most of the time. This isn't MW4 where you get a red reticle when it is over an enemy regardless of the current visual status.

As for pinpoint shooting, regardless that impacts lights just as much as it does any other mech, it also doesn't remove streaks from the equation either, the lower agility just makes them easier to destroy with streaks.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[JediPanther]

When you are a light mech pilot any thing not moving at 130 kph is too dam slow. 80-90kph claners think they are fast. Only compared to IS mechs that are not lights. Light mechs and speed over 130kph rule.

[ChapeL]

Agility should not be coupled with engine rating. Those ( accel, decel, torso and turning speeds ) should be characteristics set on a mech per mech basis. Lights would get more of this logically. Suddenly medioums would not need to cripple what firepower they have in order to feel as nimble as they should... and if done well, heavies and assaults should feel much more difficult to stop and accelerate to a full run due to their enormous mass. A larger engine ( such as on the Kodiak) would only allow them to reach higher top speed.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Target acquisition time has no impact on firing weapons, visuals are good enough for that most of the time. This isn't MW4 where you get a red reticle when it is over an enemy regardless of the current visual status.

As for pinpoint shooting, regardless that impacts lights just as much as it does any other mech, it also doesn't remove streaks from the equation either, the lower agility just makes them easier to destroy with streaks.

Oh no, I meant target aim times, non PP Convergeance and stuff like that, from target to target, the time it takes your targeting computer to compute the firing solution and all that. The Delay there would be between the time you pick up a target, hit R and then your mech begins to draw a solution. No one wants anything but the PP laser/ac/gauss/poptart/w/e meta. Add in all that firing solution/aimtime/cof/ and anything to increase aim time/engagement time and reduce the speed which we can get accurate shots off and you would increase light mech survival. ITs soley this magical ability to instantly have all guns right where you need them at all times that Lights and smaller mechs need to move like Warframe Manics to amount to a hill of beans.

BUt yeah....it wont ever change....we can just keep the game the way it is.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Yes, but moreso for ballistics and PPCs than for SRMs. A reduced speed of projectile will increased exposure time for a target at a given range due to increased uncertainty of a hit. It indirectly impacts the rate of fire, too.

As long as you can't really get away with bringing a mostly homogeneous team *coughMWOWCcough*, it should be fine.

Brawling became much more prevalent once velocity was changed (ironically it hadn't changed much previously before - only splash damage and damage per missile had).

Same could be cause for PPCs, but I don't even want to go back to those discussions (the flat out velocity nerf from our balance overlord killed it overnight after all).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

laser/ac/gauss/poptart/w/e meta

You basically described all weapons but missiles.....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Add in all that firing solution/aimtime/cof/ and anything to increase aim time/engagement time and reduce the speed which we can get accurate shots off and you would increase light mech survival.

By turning the gameplay to that, you will either see the more extremes of extremely static engagements or all out pushes. Not to mention see the population decrease even further because that sort of game is just less attractive, you force it to be even more niche. That sort of gameplay makes for great single player, but not multiplayer.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

Brawling became much more prevalent once velocity was changed (ironically it hadn't changed much previously before - only splash damage and damage per missile had).

Same could be cause for PPCs, but I don't even want to go back to those discussions (the flat out velocity nerf from our balance overlord killed it overnight after all).

Except, with what I stated even brawling weapons get nerfed. What I stated at the top of page two was essentially a global nerf to the output on all weapons such that high agility is less imperative in larger 'Mechs.

You would not get the same result you describe.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Except, with what I stated even brawling weapons get nerfed. What I stated at the top of page two was essentially a global nerf to the output on all weapons such that high agility is less imperative in larger 'Mechs.

You would not get the same result you describe.

I don't think PGI is capable of that though, even under a unicorn based world.

[Duatam]

All mechs too agile for my taste. Since these mechs are so huge, it would feel more "realistic" and immersive for me if they'd move/turn slower.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

I don't think PGI is capable of that though, even under a unicorn based world.

Maybe, maybe not, but what PGI is capable of doing wasn't even in the ballpark of that particular discussion.

It was merely a statement showing that pinpoint convergence doesn't necessarily have to go away for reduced agility to be viable.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Except, with what I stated even brawling weapons get nerfed. What I stated at the top of page two was essentially a global nerf to the output on all weapons such that high agility is less imperative in larger 'Mechs.

You would not get the same result you describe.

Reduced damage output does impact tactical viability however since the less incoming damage a push is susceptible to impacts the viability of that push because once they get within range it should be game over unless the DPS of short range weapons is reduced even further so that the ratio between long range and short range DPS is not maintained.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Reduced damage output does impact tactical viability however since the less incoming damage a push is susceptible to impacts the viability of that push because once they get within range it should be game over unless the DPS of short range weapons is reduced even further so that the ratio between long range and short range DPS is not maintained.

That was kind of what I said over the last couple of pages.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

By turning the gameplay to that, you will either see the more extremes of extremely static engagements or all out pushes. Not to mention see the population decrease even further because that sort of game is just less attractive, you force it to be even more niche. That sort of gameplay makes for great single player, but not multiplayer.

BEcause players arent capable of anything else. They arent capable of engaging their brains and making use of the situation. Only washing, rinsing, repeating the absolute easiest solution they can devise.

Its never about actually thinking of a tactic, strategy or otherwise, and employing it. Its just, find w/e gun is the most "OP" and putting it on repeat until PGI nerfs that particular gun then move on.

The players of this game especially, seem like they cant play anything short of "aimbot". Where if they had to aim, and counter the movement of the mech's swaying while it walked, or having to slow down around a corner and NOT taking a corner at 120kph, they would completely be incapable of playing the game at all. Its why there is always such a huge push against any kind of change that takes the game away from the PP convergeance, super agility, physics and law defying mechanics this game has. The Light mechs that can turn 360 degrees 3x in 2 seconds. The completely 120% stabilized and always instantly aiming guns, no matter what the situation. All these mechanics that defy all logic and reason.....even by the Sci Fi world that is Battltetech. This game just simply ignores every feature of existance ever.

By the logic of this particular game, our cars would be able to take corners while doing 80mph and not even miss a beat. Stopping distances for trains would be 15 feet, not 3/4 of a mile. A hip fired, duel wielded pair of LMGs would be completely pin point accurate from 1000m out. Our cars would be able to pull 0 turn donuts. This game defies all the laws of life, never mind a game world....

No game or community have I seen to attached to this magical world...where even hinting at adding anything that takes the game a little closer back to reality is just seen as absolute taboo...

No, despite all the advances in technology, even tanks today arent pin point accurate, they have like 1-3m spread at 1700m while stationary. Never mind on the move. Now you have a mech carrying weapons in its arms, not at all centralized to the targeting computer, guns in the torso, guns and missiles up on mounts above and around the cockpit. None of it is centralized, and now your RUNNING at 150KPH, swaying around as you run and somehow it would be completely 100% pin point accurate....

The more I got to thinking about it, the more I have read about how actually NOT pinpoint even modern tanks are, and the more I read things pertaining to how objects work in reality, the more hilarious this game becomes....and the more ******** this community looks for thinking it should stay like this. Then the only comeback that can ever be used is how they simply dont like the CoF mechanic, or aim time, or any of those mechanics would ruffle the meta of the game and they would maybe have to change tactics...or how it would just shift the game to another type of "meta"......

The real people holding back MWO is the playerbase. PGI are derpy, but the real problem is they cant come up with any system that wont upset the apple cart of reality defying horseshit mechanics we have in this game.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 27 October 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

BEcause players arent capable of anything else.

No, it has less to do with capability and more to do with what they enjoy, because I know I wouldn't enjoy that sort of gameplay in a multiplayer game. I'm sure I could do it if I actually cared, but I doubt I would which is the point.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

Its never about actually thinking of a tactic, strategy or otherwise, and employing it. Its just, find w/e gun is the most "OP" and putting it on repeat until PGI nerfs that particular gun then move on.

Yeah, sure it is that simple, that's why there is such a large skill gap between teams like EmP and those like CWI, SWOL, HHOD, etc.

I'm not saying there is crazy amounts of strategy in this game that put it on par with something like Dwarf Fortress, but this game does involve tactical thinking because that is what separates good players from the bad, not the mechlab or twitch ability.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

reality defying horseshit mechanics we have in this game.

I don't know if you noticed, but this is a game and most game mechanics tend to defy reality, cuz you know, it's a game. Game design and reality are not the best of friends.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 11:19 AM.