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Weapons Manufacturers

Balance BattleMechs Gameplay

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#1 lagartx3

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 11:46 AM

So... im fairly new at the game, and enlgish is not my main language, so before firing your LPL's at me, i want you to consider that this is just a crude idea for a possible game balance mode.

I've never player TT BT, or any of the previous MW games, but I have been reading SARNA since i started playin MW:O, and I noticed that when refering to the lore Loadouts, SARNA usually mentions not only the wepon mounted on a 'Mech, but also its manufacturer, so... why not balance 'Mechs using a combination of SMALL Quircks and compatible weapon systems.

Here is how i've been thinking about it so far:

'Mechs are supposed to perform differently from each other, at least in the lore, but in an Online Shooter we need an adecuate balance, something to put ALL mechs in a more or less even field, so instead of bringing balance to the weapons, wich affect all 'Mechs more or less the same regardless of class, we do it by balancing each individual Chasis by making it able to only carry compatible weapon systems, and then, to each individual Variant, apply a series of small Quircks to Buff o Nerf different weapons or systems according to that Variant strenghts and weaknesses (wether by lore or symply the ammount of hardpoint or intended Playstyle)

So, it would go something like this: KDK-3 its a very powerfull Assault 'Mech, able to carry a great payload on very high hardpoints, so insted of Creating a Whole system of ED to affect all mechs, we just make the KDK Chasis Able to carry only ''X'' manufacturer Ballistic Weapons, wich, in comparisson with other Manufacturer, would have, lets say, a 0.2 higher heat generation per shot, and a sligthly higher cooldown. And before you start furiously tiping, remember, here is where the small Quircks enter the stage, for each individual Variant of the KDK Chasis, the Quircks will change, or maybe on a very special or different variant, the use of Weapons Systems from another manufecturer would be allowed. remember, this would be the idea behind every mech.


What is the point of this???

Instead of Hitting EVERY class and mech with the same hammer while nerfing or buffing A weapon, and then having to apply a lot of Quircks, each individual mech can be taken on!

Oh!! the freaking Kodiak 3 is supper op?? we have to do something to stop Lazor Boating?? the Power of the Dakka side is too strong?? ohh the vypers are under performing??? well, instead of modifiying a weapon that affects all mechs, we just restrict the manufacturer compatible with some mechs, and voila!


yeah, someone will say, but this will decrease variety of builds!!! people will only use X loadout on X mechs... people allready does, and they will always do that, of course there are some loadout more benefical to some mechs, and that is ok, that is the way they where designed, and if THAT specific loadout on THAT specific chasis or variant seems to be too OP, well, you Quirck a little that variant, or restrict that chasis to some specific weapon manufacturers.

the idea is to have balance... and some mechs are supposed to compensate a little more heat generation, or -1 or -0.5 damage points on some weapons systems with their innate atributes, more armor, more twisting, more jumping capabilities, more speed and so on.

Am I crazy?? is this a stupid idea or can it be polished and expanded to be a viable game mechanic???

Edited by lagartx3, 27 October 2016 - 12:06 PM.


#2 Simbacca

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 12:22 PM

Branded weapons has been brought up 3 years ago - when Weapon Modules were first introduced. The only response was to remove the heat penalties for using the weapons modules.

#3 Bombast

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 12:33 PM

Manufacturer perks is a fairly massive balancing issue, particularly when introduced to a game well past its introduction. Too many variables. I know you're trying to use it as a balancing mechanism, but your implementation is basically just 'Quirks 2.0.' Only we'd need to keep Quirks 1.0 as well.

HBS is doing it, though. But a new, predominately single player Battletech game can more easily accommodate this system.

#4 Albino Boo

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

It will make the T1 meta builds even more effective than currently which means kills will come even quicker. Currently PGI is trying to find a way to make mechs last longer. So you are not going to see quirks that go in the opposite direction

#5 DaZur

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 12:46 PM

Personally, I'd like different weapon manufacturers to be represented purely from a cosmetic standpoint.

Would be nice to replace the gaudy "focused laser boxs" in my Rifleman (Vulture) with the right proper elongated barrels... Posted Image

Problem with different manufacturer weapons inferring different quirks etc is that most folks would min/max to the optimum manufacturer's product and we essentially wind up right back where we started.

Edited by DaZur, 27 October 2016 - 12:47 PM.


#6 DAYLEET

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 12:51 PM

Id like a Sarna/Lore text with every mech/weapon you buy rather than just statistic. Dont need to influence anything in the game other than make it a nice looking and interesting to look at. Would put meat on the bones.

#7 XtremWarrior

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 01:08 PM

View PostDaZur, on 27 October 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Personally, I'd like different weapon manufacturers to be represented purely from a cosmetic standpoint.

Would be nice to replace the gaudy "focused laser boxs" in my Rifleman (Vulture) with the right proper elongated barrels... Posted Image

Problem with different manufacturer weapons inferring different quirks etc is that most folks would min/max to the optimum manufacturer's product and we essentially wind up right back where we started.


Manufacturer's Quirks could be as low as 0.2 more damage on a Med Las for 0.2 more heat / 1 more HP for longer cooldowns (random examples), anything less than 5% would hardly break the game and still give us some flavor. Also Clans and IS manufacturers would be different, so those little quirks would be easy to balance IS/Clan wise.

The trouble I see is that it might need quite some work for not much content.

Edited by XtremWarrior, 27 October 2016 - 01:09 PM.


#8 Barantor

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 01:34 PM

View PostSimbacca, on 27 October 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Branded weapons has been brought up 3 years ago - when Weapon Modules were first introduced. The only response was to remove the heat penalties for using the weapons modules.


It was brought up before the game was even in open beta, then again after that, then again during the R&R, then again when CW was talked about, then again when CW was redone.....

It just doesn't seem to be something that PGI cares for at all. Pity.

#9 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 03:40 PM

View PostDAYLEET, on 27 October 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Id like a Sarna/Lore text with every mech/weapon you buy rather than just statistic. Dont need to influence anything in the game other than make it a nice looking and interesting to look at. Would put meat on the bones.


Sounds great but I doubt PGI has the staff for that.

#10 lagartx3

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 04:25 PM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 27 October 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

It will make the T1 meta builds even more effective than currently which means kills will come even quicker.

why? the idea is to balance all mechs, some wich are now underperforming would get acces to some wepon manufacturers that can help marginaly increase their performance, and current meta mechs, would have acces to other manufacturer limiting their current over-performing, bringing them to a more even field.

and thats the beauty of it, you take on each mech on an individual level, giving them access to different weapóns systems and manufacturers

#11 lagartx3

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 04:38 PM

View PostDaZur, on 27 October 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Personally, I'd like different weapon manufacturers to be represented purely from a cosmetic standpoint.

Would be nice to replace the gaudy "focused laser boxs" in my Rifleman (Vulture) with the right proper elongated barrels... Posted Image

Problem with different manufacturer weapons inferring different quirks etc is that most folks would min/max to the optimum manufacturer's product and we essentially wind up right back where we started.

Yes, and no, the idea is that anyone can play their mechs to their optimal capabilities, wich people always will try to do, but them again, using this type of system, that "optimal" standpoint may change from pilot to pilot, some Mechwarriors will use "X" brand LPL and have a shorter more powerfull pulse but a higher heat gen, and others will use "T" brand LPL's (that assuming that the chasis they are using has acces to multiple manufacturer weapon systems, wich not all mechs should be able to) but ultimately there shouldnt be any chasis highly over-performing the others.

#12 DAYLEET

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:43 PM

View PostLyoto Machida, on 27 October 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

Sounds great but I doubt PGI has the staff for that.

Cant prove it but last i heard, PGI was developing a video game and had people at their employ. They probably can add stuff to the game. Theres a UI guy thats for sure and thats pretty much a UI job with a side of copy/paste.

#13 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 08:37 PM

View PostDAYLEET, on 27 October 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Cant prove it but last i heard, PGI was developing a video game and had people at their employ. They probably can add stuff to the game. Theres a UI guy thats for sure and thats pretty much a UI job with a side of copy/paste.


I stand by my statement...the people with the ability to copy/paste text from Sarna are no longer employed at PGI. You'd think they'd have done it by now if they had the technical capability.

Does Tukayyid have planetary info yet? Lulz...

#14 martian

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 11:18 PM

View Postlagartx3, on 27 October 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

Am I crazy?? is this a stupid idea or can it be polished and expanded to be a viable game mechanic???


It would simply add just one additional layer, that would need additional balancing, to the already poorly balanced game.

#15 lagartx3

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 06:31 AM

View Postmartian, on 27 October 2016 - 11:18 PM, said:


It would simply add just one additional layer, that would need additional balancing, to the already poorly balanced game.


And that is the point! By branding weapons we replace our weapons system with a more dinamic one, wich would have more variants to consider for PGI to change on the spreadsheet, but then, by limiting the acces to certain 'brands' to specific chasis the balance issue becomes simpler, take for example the most ranted mech in the last months, the kodiak. it has 4 ballistic hardpoints on the highest part of its torso, making it an extremely efficient poker-sniper-brawler-poptarter, or whatever, yess, it is powerfull, so insted of limiting all mechs by balancing the way balistics behave, or the way all CUAC-5 or 10 behave, well, just make the KDK only compatible with ''X'' brand ballistics, wich, due to the way the engineers designed the amunition belt feeder to the weapons chambers, fire with a sligtly higher cooldown rate, compared to other brands ballistic systems...

oh but that is just Quirking, you can say... But no, simply for the fact that this ''X'' brand ballistic weapons systems, will be the same for multiple mechs that can use said brand and those Chasis over perforing with ballistics will be limited to that Brand as well... IF with the limitation imposed via branded weapons systems the mech still over performs by a large margin other mechs in its weigth class, then the specific variant small Quirks may be aplied, in order to even the odds in the battle field.


Look, what im proposing its not a flawless simple to implement method, off course there are some balance issues in the game, but IMHO the problem is both a mix of over performing variants, and a pretty stale playstyle adopted by most Mechwarriors in the battlefield, "The Meta"' wich isnt likely to change if all weapons behave the same amongst all mechs...

what im proposing its a system that not only makes the balancing more close to each individual variant without the use of massive quircks, AND a system that also could bring a much needed diversification in builds and playstile, wich in turn could shift our stale Meta...

Yes, ultimately there would be more parameters to modify, but then again, PGI wouldnt have to think about making THE srm6 fair to ALL IS mechs (wich is a nigthmare of a task) and then Quirking mechs, it would rather just need to make for example, Mechs with traditionaly over performing missile hardpoints to be able to only use "T", "X" and "Z" Brands ballistic systems due to compatibility, and such.

And that is the whole thing goes focused to a particular issue:

When you have an online FPS like COD or CS, you balance the weapons, beacuse all players have the same character capabilities, everyone runs jump and docks the same, but when you have different weigth classes, with a very different feeling for each Mech within its class, you are not supposed to make the weapons the same for everyone, or even modify its behavor with no penalties, like it hapens when PGI just quirks a locust with a -50% energy cooldown

#16 martian

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 06:54 AM

View Postlagartx3, on 28 October 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

oh but that is just Quirking, you can say... But no, simply for the fact that this ''X'' brand ballistic weapons systems, will be the same for multiple mechs that can use said brand and those Chasis over perforing with ballistics will be limited to that Brand as well... IF with the limitation imposed via branded weapons systems the mech still over performs by a large margin other mechs in its weigth class, then the specific variant small Quirks may be aplied, in order to even the odds in the battle field.

So instead of nerfing or balancing one particular OP 'Mech, you will create dozens of weapons and equipment items, effectively multiplying the original problem. You are not only having to balance 'Mechs against each other, now you have to balance 'Mechs and all possible combinations of weapons and equipment against each other. Congrats.


View Postlagartx3, on 28 October 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

"The Meta"' wich isnt likely to change if all weapons behave the same amongst all mechs...

You can't destroy the Meta, you can only change it or move it. To nerf one OP 'Mech, you have created an enormously sophisticated system that would complicate everything. And for what? If your nerf of Kodiak is relatively small, players are going to ignore it. If your nerf of Kodiak is big, people will simply move to the second best 'Mech. That's all.


View Postlagartx3, on 28 October 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

what im proposing its a system that not only makes the balancing more close to each individual variant without the use of massive quircks, AND a system that also could bring a much needed diversification in builds and playstile, wich in turn could shift our stale Meta...

So instead of assigning a 'Mech some negative quirk, you are going to force it into using one underperforming weapon type that will act as - surprisingly - negative quirk.
Exactly as you are saying here:

View Postlagartx3, on 28 October 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

Yes, ultimately there would be more parameters to modify, but then again, PGI wouldnt have to think about making THE srm6 fair to ALL IS mechs (wich is a nigthmare of a task) and then Quirking mechs, it would rather just need to make for example, Mechs with traditionaly over performing missile hardpoints to be able to only use "T", "X" and "Z" Brands ballistic systems due to compatibility, and such.


Sorry, but I do not think that doubling the complexity of everything - to achieve exactly the same results that we already have or we could have (with some negative quirks) - is the right way.

Edited by martian, 28 October 2016 - 06:54 AM.


#17 Fragnot

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 07:52 AM

Love the idea from a lore/cosmetic angle, but have to agree with others that it would only add an additional layer of complexity for balance purposes.

Borderlands did an excellent job making weapon manufacturers a compelling part of the game IMO; but they weren't balancing for pvp.

I want a MALIWAN ERLL that sets Mechs on fire!





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