52 replies to this topic

[RedDragon]

To make this clear from the start: This is a genuine question, no PGI-bashing intended (although it may be read that way, I'm aware of this, but I'm trying to keep to the facts).

So we all know that there is not much love for PGI here on the forums or from the player base in general. It's one thing that a Dev team has to cope with players insulting them, hating their game etc.
But what I am genuinely interested in is: How does the team cope with their own product? You may say about MWO what you want - some find it fun, some think it sucks, but it's undeniable that there were many grave mistakes over the last 4 years.

I can't really imagine that the guys at PGI are satisfied with the way the game turned out (CW for example). So as I see it, there are two options:
1) They know that they overpromised and underwhelmed their customers and are sad/sorry about it.
2) They just don't care and really are only inerested in selling us mech packs.

I mean ... Imagine it is early 2013 and CW should have been here by now (see my sig for reference), but they have done absolutely nothing in that regard. It's only in late 2014 that CW beta is launched, and we all know how that turned out.
So how are those things handled in PGI's office? Do you think they are sad they missed all those deadlines? And if so, why did they lie all the time about CW being in production? Or are they really that calculating that they planned it that way?
And I'm not really talking about Russ or Paul, but the common guy at PGI. Do you think they can take pride in their product after seeing Bryan talking 20 minutes about a plan for CW which they must have perfectly known that no one was really working on at that time?
Can they look at the current iteration of CW and really say "Yes, this is the best we could accomplish"?

Just as a reminder, in late 2014, Russ posted the following about the first CW beta:

Quote

This phase 2 release of CW is certainly not the absolute end game product that fulfills every desire of the hard core Battletech player, but I don't want to minimize it either, it's truly a game changer. MechWarrior players have never been able to experience anything like this before. That comment is not meant to take away from MPBT: 3025 that product has my full respect but it was around for a very short window and only playable by a small amount of players who were willing to pay by the hour. Within Community Warfare I anticipate we will see hundreds if not thousands of matches played every day within this concept of fighting for the great factions of the inner sphere with planets changing possession and the map reflecting that.
MPBT: 3025 also had many deeper logistical features that many have expressed interest in, with this main aspect of CW now in beta we will be free to consider all aspects of growing the depth of the combat and look forward to hearing your suggestions.

I am really interested to hear if anyone has an idea how it must be to work for PGI or a company in general that works this way.

[Deathlike]

It's like a presidential election.

You get promises... fed all you want to hear... and then once elected, do only SOME of your promises due to Congressional delays or meddling.

You could apply this to PGI in most of the same way.

[Bombast]

According to sites like glassdoor.com...

https://www.glassdoo...ews-E144886.htm

It's like every other job - Not great, not terrible. Seems like it just has all the typical advantages and problems associated with both small business, and game developers. Nothing really special about them.

And yes, I know, unverified insiders are not the best source. But it's probably as good as anyone is going to get.

As for personal pride and all that... my guess is that everyone is fairly proud of what they, specifically, have done. The problem (As some people think) seems to be what they aren't working on at all.

Edited by Bombast, 27 October 2016 - 03:42 PM.

[JediPanther]

I'm pretty sure they have some great talent working for them but the best talent in the industry can't make a great product with bad management. Two things seem to be in universal agreement about pgi from the forms are:

1. The art assets from Alex,the 3-d modelers,animators and texture artists are really good.
2. Management and communication issues abound in the negativity and has been for years. The only really positive time the community and pgi did some thing great was for the charity fund for sarah. Every year you'll find at least one post of someone wanting to buy or be sold that re-skin of the jenner-d.

[Bud Crue]

OP,

As to the main jab of your post:

You ask about "the common guy" at PGI and how they cope with PGI's past promises relative to the company's performance reality. And in response to that, I gotta say "good luck getting an honest answer". Even if one of these "common guys" (or gal's) deigns to respond, do you really think they would give any other answer than "its great!"

What I think you are really asking however, is what many who play this game and are familiar with PGI's history ask of Russ and co. Namely, "How do you people look yourself in the mirror, given your public record of misleading your customers?" or even more metaphorically: "Do these people (those responsible for the false starts, the blatant misrepresentations, the delusions of grandeur, etc.) smell what they are shoveling?" and tangentially: "Are we idiots for expecting them to do better?"

The short answer is: Yes, they are fine with who they are and what they have done. Russ has publicly stated as much on multiple occasions, and has gone further by stating that we the players and customers should be thanking him for what he has given us (see April town hall of this year). Second part, yes we are idiots or at least horribly misguided and self-deluded for expecting them to do otherwise.

That said, I do take one issue with your post:

RedDragon, on 27 October 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

So we all know that there is not much love for PGI here on the forums or from the player base in general. It's one thing that a Dev team has to cope with players insulting them, hating their game etc.

While I don't "love" PGI, I am very happy that they have given us this game. I really am. I say that with no sarcasm or irony. I really enjoy the basic game play of MWO. I just really wish there was more to it. My likeing of the game however is tinged with bitterness precisely for the reasons you allude to in your OP: because the game we have is a mere hint as to what was promised. Oh well, the past is the past. I once gladly threw money at PGI for the fun of CW phase 2, and will gladly do so again...just as soon as they give me a CW experience that is indeed closer to what they promised (see my comment about being self-deluded above ).

[rolly]

I love reading about the CoN's. They seem to have more grains of truth than the fawning in the Pro's section.

Of particular note:

[color=#404040]Cons[/color]
Small budgets and team size limit scope. Development
on a live product brings many developmental challenges. Free to play principles hamstring features.

Cons
- could use more communication
- There were some stragglers who would come in late and put in minimal effort. There are still some, which is frustrating to see, but most of them have left.
- more team bonding events (not just big company events)
- usually its 40 hours week easy but in the last 2 years its been OT, OT, OT towards end of the year.. spread it out!

Overall, it does seem there is some significant improvement from 2015 to now.

Edited by rolly, 27 October 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Unless you actually work for PGI, you cannot answer the question.

[Lyoto Machida]

RedDragon, on 27 October 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

To make this clear from the start: This is a genuine question, no PGI-bashing intended (although it may be read that way, I'm aware of this, but I'm trying to keep to the facts).

So we all know that there is not much love for PGI here on the forums or from the player base in general. It's one thing that a Dev team has to cope with players insulting them, hating their game etc.
But what I am genuinely interested in is: How does the team cope with their own product? You may say about MWO what you want - some find it fun, some think it sucks, but it's undeniable that there were many grave mistakes over the last 4 years.

I can't really imagine that the guys at PGI are satisfied with the way the game turned out (CW for example). So as I see it, there are two options:
1) They know that they overpromised and underwhelmed their customers and are sad/sorry about it.
2) They just don't care and really are only inerested in selling us mech packs.

I mean ... Imagine it is early 2013 and CW should have been here by now (see my sig for reference), but they have done absolutely nothing in that regard. It's only in late 2014 that CW beta is launched, and we all know how that turned out.
So how are those things handled in PGI's office? Do you think they are sad they missed all those deadlines? And if so, why did they lie all the time about CW being in production? Or are they really that calculating that they planned it that way?
And I'm not really talking about Russ or Paul, but the common guy at PGI. Do you think they can take pride in their product after seeing Bryan talking 20 minutes about a plan for CW which they must have perfectly known that no one was really working on at that time?
Can they look at the current iteration of CW and really say "Yes, this is the best we could accomplish"?

Just as a reminder, in late 2014, Russ posted the following about the first CW beta:



I am really interested to hear if anyone has an idea how it must be to work for PGI or a company in general that works this way.

You forgot option #3...PGI sets their goals REALLY low and 100 people playing CW is a huge success based on their expectations prior to the release.

[RedDragon]

Bud Crue, on 27 October 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

OP,

As to the main jab of your post:

You ask about "the common guy" at PGI and how they cope with PGI's past promises relative to the company's performance reality. And in response to that, I gotta say "good luck getting an honest answer". Even if one of these "common guys" (or gal's) deigns to respond, do you really think they would give any other answer than "its great!"

What I think you are really asking however, is what many who play this game and are familiar with PGI's history ask of Russ and co. Namely, "How do you people look yourself in the mirror, given your public record of misleading your customers?" or even more metaphorically: "Do these people (those responsible for the false starts, the blatant misrepresentations, the delusions of grandeur, etc.) smell what they are shoveling?" and tangentially: "Are we idiots for expecting them to do better?"

The short answer is: Yes, they are fine with who they are and what they have done. Russ has publicly stated as much on multiple occasions, and has gone further by stating that we the players and customers should be thanking him for what he has given us (see April town hall of this year). Second part, yes we are idiots or at least horribly misguided and self-deluded for expecting them to do otherwise.

No, I am really more interested in hearing about the "common guy". I am pretty sure about Russ and Paul by now and how they think/work. But naturally, I don't expect an actual answer from an employee.
The question was more aimed at the thoughts of the forumites and their view on how it must be to work there.
Yes, we all say that PGI is evil, "want to buy another mech pack" etc. But do we really think that all those guys at PGI behave the same way as Russ for example? I.e. they program something half-assed, publish it and when nobody likes it, it's the fault of the players? I can't really see that.
On the other hand, I also can't imagine to work at a place where the daily motto seems to be something like "We tried, and we failed". Even when I try to look at the development of MWO with an unbiased view, I really can't see a single thing (except for Alex' art maybe) where I'd say "Yes, that worked out from the beginning". On most things it's not even "Yes, that worked at all"...

[S 0 L E N Y A]

I am sure it is great if you are named Russ or Paul.

All you need to do is keep making mech packs for all these idio... I mean customers,,, and you get to keep the lights on!

[Deathlike]

RedDragon, on 27 October 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

No, I am really more interested in hearing about the "common guy". I am pretty sure about Russ and Paul by now and how they think/work. But naturally, I don't expect an actual answer from an employee.
The question was more aimed at the thoughts of the forumites and their view on how it must be to work there.
Yes, we all say that PGI is evil, "want to buy another mech pack" etc. But do we really think that all those guys at PGI behave the same way as Russ for example? I.e. they program something half-assed, publish it and when nobody likes it, it's the fault of the players? I can't really see that.
On the other hand, I also can't imagine to work at a place where the daily motto seems to be something like "We tried, and we failed". Even when I try to look at the development of MWO with an unbiased view, I really can't see a single thing (except for Alex' art maybe) where I'd say "Yes, that worked out from the beginning". On most things it's not even "Yes, that worked at all"...

I would say there are two versions of this...

What a White Knight would say said:

So, they're in a wonderful place, filled with unicorns a lifesized Urbie (or some sort of R2D2) with developers bandying about encouraging the rest of the team on their wonderful work.

When a feature is ready to be produced, it gets all the TLC it deserves.

If all the mean people say something about it, we'll get back to working on it at least 60 to 90 days... because they need to get a move onto the "next best thing" for MWO.

What a Black Knight would say said:

So, they're working in some awful place... akin to the place in "Dads" (a cancelled tv show) where the "big 3" are hovering over every person... making sure they aren't slacking off.

When a feature is ready to be produced, it is done a haphazard matter... enough to call it "minimally viable" w/o enough basic testing that would've created a "durr this needs fixing immediately" response... and needing a hotfix like every new game on being released on day 1 (needing a patch).


If all the vile ForumWarriors and nasty tweets aren't enough, the other members of PGI (not of the big 3) plead with Russ to give it a bit more TLC because it needs to "suck less", but get a "nope" and get told to work on the next project immediately. A dartboard is revealed and used to determine when it actually gets fixed (from "60 to 90 days" to "next year").

If this is close to anything, lemme know.

[Tristan Winter]

(May as well make jokes, since nobody has any information)

[TLBFestus]

Russ, Bryan and Paul know what they promised, what they gave us and don't give a cr@p.

The regular Joe who works there goes to work, does their job, and doesn't care, but in a benign way.

[jss78]

Who knows. Whatever little we see in the streams, it seems like a nice place.

I think what we can objectively say is that there have been some cases of publicly stated goals, which the guys on the ground did't really have the means to deliver. Now this describes, in my experience, at least half the employers out there, regardless of sector. Nothing dramatic here.

[El Bandito]

From what I have seen on their paltry balance effort, it seems the top management alone makes balance decisions. Rest of the staff's input seems to be discarded.

[kesmai]

It depends on your prowess in sports.
Trust me.
If you are an avid dart player, you will have a wonderful time.
Also scrabble comes to my mind for whatever reason...

[SQW]

My feeling is that PGI is one of those workplaces where you go into the punch the clock and get paid to feed the family. Resources is limited and the management holds all the major decision making power.

There'll no goals or inspiring leadership to make the employees feel like they are part of something bigger.
There'll be no energy left after 4 years of so so development.
There'll be no future advancement opportunity since MWO is all PGI has and given their past history, trying to branch out will inevitably end in failure.
On the bright side, expectation will be low; the only way to go from rock bottom is UP....or stay in one place.

Basically like 60% of the jobs out there.

[a gaijin]

If this post is actually about "broken promises" then I kind of think you ought not to bash PGI so badly because look what happened with No Man's Sky.
PGI may not be delivering everything you (OP) want for your schedule, but over the years I have seen this game develop. Not at the pace I would like either, but still is developed into the best multiplayer MW game to date.


Edited for Siri's stupid typos. I will never buy another iPhone

Edited by Star Commander Horse, 28 October 2016 - 02:18 AM.

[RedDragon]

Star Commander Horse, on 28 October 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

If this post is actually about "broken promises" then I kind of think you ought not to bash PGI so badly because look what happened with No Man's Sky.
PGI may not be delivering everything you (OP) want for your schedule, but over the years I have seen this game develop. Not at the pace I would like either, but still is developed into the best multiplayer MW game to date.


Edited for Siri's stupid typos. I will never buy another iPhone

It's not only about broken promises, I only picked CW as the most obvious example. You could also look at their history of breaking the game with every major patch, the forum debacle where they censored and deleted General Discussion to silence their players, or the recent case about unit emblems and PGI not respecting intellectual property. The list goes on and on.

And as I pointed out in the OP, it is not about whether you like the game ore not - saying it's "the best multiplayer MW game to date" is a highly subjective view that is certainly not shared by all players. That's why I'm talking about provable facts, not the ingame experience.

[Mycrus]

What glassdoor doesnt work for you?