159 replies to this topic

[MPcdn]

Hi all

I am suprised by the limitations when adding weapons to a Mech. I will explain. To me a weapon is a weapon, if you have the space you should be able to put any weapon in it. Right now weapon loadout slots a limited to being a beam or projectile. This takes away some of the fun weapon loadouts. Think 10 machine guns on a light or two guass on an Atlas the variants are unlimited.

On one more note weapons loads should show in game, if you take a PPC off you should not have a big tube showig in game.

Edited by MPcdn, 19 July 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Tokimonatakanimekat]

Quick. Delete your post before moderator wake up. This is NDA breach you doing here.

[Thontor]

limitations promote diversity in my opinion

MW2, and MW3, and to some extent MW4.. turned into everyone boating the weapon of the month or whatever... Everyone in either laser boats or missle boats.. BORING

I agree that changing weapons in the mechlab should change the appearance of your mech in game. At least they are making the variants have a unique look

Tokimonatakanimekat, on 19 July 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Quick. Delete your post before moderator wake up. This is NDA breach you doing here.

I didnt get the impression that he was actually in beta.. nothing in there is stuff we don't already know from available information and videos

Edited by thontor, 19 July 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Sarah McCallum]

MPcdn, on 19 July 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

To me a weapon is a weapon

Well, there's your problem. There are two relevant issues with this:

1) A weapon is not a weapon. There are a number of factors that come into play. Where's the ammo? How is the ammo fed into the weapon? Can the mounting point support the weight of the weapon and the recoil forces when fired...etc...etc. These are real-life concerns. It's why you do not shove a JDAM into the internal bay of an F-35.

2) Balancing the game mechanics. I'm sure the developers examined the feasibility of making the mechlab an all-you-can-eat buffet. I imagine it would be ridiculously simply. They opted not to and I'm sure that's for a good reason. In terms of game play they know more than either you or I.

[ThunderMax]

MW3's MechLab did not have hard points, it was very fun but with MW4 I quickly got used to the limitations and adapted.

[Sarah McCallum]

If we're trying to stay true to the time frame you should not be able to modify your mech. Any variant would have to be purchased individually and take a spot in your hangar. A modular design in 3049 where can be swapped out of a single chassis is rather unheard of.

[Seabear]

By limiting the type of weapon that may be mounted in each spot, the "flavor" of the chasis is retained. The key to diversity will probably be the variants that will be available as the game proceeds. Limitations calls forth the ingenuity in folks. Think of the restrictions as a challenge and have fun.

[MPcdn]

I am not in beta {hope to be} but I am just going off what I have read. If I am wrong and changes have been made then great.

[light487]

When you "add a weapon" it needs to connect to things.. you can't just reach out from the inside of your cockpit and "pull the trigger" physically.. so it needs to be connected to, at the very least, some connections that allow you to pull the trigger from inside your cockpit. With some weapons, there are a bunch of critical systems and connections that need to exist for you to connect them. Energy weapons require different systems to ballistic weapons and so on. It's more than just a "hardpoint".. it's a certain type of hardpoint. It's like trying to plug a HDMI plug into a USB hole... they are very similar but not the same and even if you did manage to somehow jam it in there, it still wouldn't work.

Edited by light487, 19 July 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Bearibis]

From playing the tabletop and some of the pc mech games I am happy for the hardpoints to promote diversity of weapons and above all avoid exploits. I remember on the table top version someone put 30 ish to 50 ish small lasers on a 100 ton mech and was definitely OP. I don't remember the exact details because we are talking late 80's/early 90's. Yes it only worked in short range but that's not my point, they want a balanced game not one were someone can squeeze on a dozen LRM20's and no armor etc.

I agree the mech 'should' change apearance but then this is beta so give them time for that. Just remember if there is an exploit someone will find it and use it that is one of the reasons for beta testing.

[MPcdn]

I was thinking that if a small lazer can be mounted then why not a machine gun? Or If a PPC can be mounted then a guass should fit?

[Landeraxe]

MPcdn, on 19 July 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

I am suprised by the limitations when adding weapons to a Mech. I will explain. To me a weapon is a weapon, if you have the space you should be able to put any weapon in it. Right now weapon loadout slots a limited to being a beam or projectile. This takes away some of the fun weapon loadouts. Think 10 machine guns on a light or two guass on an Atlas the variants are unlimited.

Actually, once you understand skill-trees and mastery, you'll see why multiple variants are good.

MPcdn, on 19 July 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

On one more note weapons loads should show in game, if you take a PPC off you should not have a big tube showig in game.

Agreed!

[Curbstomper]

Tokimonatakanimekat, on 19 July 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Quick. Delete your post before moderator wake up. This is NDA breach you doing here.

Forum Q&A actually has a specific question involving putting ppcs on a catapult, and talked about how the different hardpoints worked. No NDA breach here

[Landeraxe]

MPcdn, on 19 July 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I was thinking that if a small lazer can be mounted then why not a machine gun? Or If a PPC can be mounted then a guass should fit?

Hardpoints represent more than a place to set a gun. An energy hardpoint would have a power supply routed to the point, whereas a ballistic hardpoint would have a system in place to supply ammunition to the hardpoint from other places on the mech. Missle hardpoints have exhaust venting/shielding, and missile loading hardware. Some mechs have multiple hardpoints available per location for greater choice, but if you think about it, there has to be infrastructure for each weapon type before it could be used from that location.

[ChargerIIC]

Sarah McCallum, on 19 July 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

If we're trying to stay true to the time frame you should not be able to modify your mech. Any variant would have to be purchased individually and take a spot in your hangar. A modular design in 3049 where can be swapped out of a single chassis is rather unheard of.

Not certain if being sarcastic or....

Modifying mechs was pretty common. Especially in the lore. Yen-Lo-Wang is probably the most famous example as it was modified extensively in one of the earliest novels. Archer Christifori'sCeaser went through several changes as well. Even many of the variants mentioned in the Technocal Readouts are the result of kits that were purchased by a mechwarrior and used to change the base model.

[PewPew]

I think the weapons you see on the external of a mech are just the outer armour. The tubes/barrels are actually armored cases. I mean, of course you would armor them. Otherwise, 1 shot to the barrel and your weapon is done for.

[Rashhaverak]

Your analysis is missing a significant advantage to the system you are decrying.

Anyone who played Chromehounds will tell you, the mechlab that they had in that game had nearly no limitations. If you were within weight and size tolerances, then it let you build the mech. You might have thought that allowing for infinite variety would result in the huge diversity in mech designs being played.

But that is not what happened...

The flaw in such a system was that all of the mech designs devolved into one primary and highly successful min-max design. Nearly everyone ran the same mech build. Two of the biggest guns you could put on the fastest chassis that would hold it. Any other design got eaten by the twin BFG design, and every match turned into the same match. Tactics and strategy went out of the window. The game bombed. It was a real shame to, because in the weeks before the twin BFG became dominant, the game was actually pretty fun.

The mechlab design and limitations should prevent such a de-evolution from happening to MWO. Mechs can only be optimized within a window that should allow each to have strengths and weaknesses, vice one single overarching mech design that beats all.

[MPcdn]

Rash good point but i have read the game will limit with slots, why have two kinds of limitations.

[IcePho3nix]

Landeraxe, on 19 July 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Hardpoints represent more than a place to set a gun. An energy hardpoint would have a power supply routed to the point, whereas a ballistic hardpoint would have a system in place to supply ammunition to the hardpoint from other places on the mech. Missle hardpoints have exhaust venting/shielding, and missile loading hardware. Some mechs have multiple hardpoints available per location for greater choice, but if you think about it, there has to be infrastructure for each weapon type before it could be used from that location.

Which, again, is why there are different variants. This is simply where someone went "You know, I'd rather this mech had this entire assembly moved over here," or " Damn, I like this machinegun, but I'd like a laser here even better!" Because the systems and assemblies to control and mount specific kinds of weapons and electronics are all so different, it becomes more effective to simply rebuild the mech, more or less from scratch, the way you want it.

[Bodha]

MPcdn, on 19 July 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Hi all

I am suprised by the limitations when adding weapons to a Mech. I will explain. To me a weapon is a weapon, if you have the space you should be able to put any weapon in it. Right now weapon loadout slots a limited to being a beam or projectile. This takes away some of the fun weapon loadouts. Think 10 machine guns on a light or two guass on an Atlas the variants are unlimited.

On one more note weapons loads should show in game, if you take a PPC off you should not have a big tube showig in game.

1. Weapon hard points provide a need for diversity in mechs. Without it you only need 1 mech for each weight which comes to only 17 mechs total. This game would be sad with only 17 mechs. This to me is more important than point #2 b/c I want the devs to make diversity a keep feature of the game. I would be ecstatic if there were valid reasons for all the mech designs from TT pre clan to get into the game. Sure the stock panther is too slow for a light scout mech, and too light to be a true brawler, but if costs are taken into account and resource management were to be a factor that mech suddenly begins to shine.
2. Weapon hard points also provide a convenient way of walling off the min maxing laser boats ideas which is a really big deal. Without that limitation people will eventually drift more and more to these setups and tbh they were not terribly fun since lack of diversity reduces the amount of stuff you can learn about the game.
3. Your point about the models reflecting the weapon loadout is very valid and I hope the dev's are dealing with it. For all I know they may have already done it, or they may be working on it as we speak.