41 replies to this topic

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Noakei Siegel, on 27 July 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Clan Wolverine, you must be kidding you surat. A clan that commits genocide by employing a nuclear warhead.

you don't read your source material, do you?
Wolverines evacuated everyone from the city and physically destroyed it, leaving the population unharmed; the Snow Raven' 'precious' genetic repository? not so lucky.
Oh and what did the clans do to the surviving wolverine civilians that couldn't escape? forced sterilization, oh how honorable of you all.

[Noakei Siegel]

Do not argue my Snow Raven legacy... Wolverine tried to destroy our complete genetic repository, which equals genocide for a clan. For the freebirth scum of the IS that might be different, quiaff?

[Feindfeuer]

I agree with the OP, as that's pretty much the same reasoning i dislike them (and other similiar factions in other tabletops like 40K space marines for example), but i'm fine with everyone else playing them as long as they enjoy it.... to each his own.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Noakei Siegel, on 27 July 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

Do not argue my Snow Raven legacy... Wolverine tried to destroy our complete genetic repository, which equals genocide for a clan. For the freebirth scum of the IS that might be different, quiaff?

tried? they succeeded, how does your honor system negotiate with a nuclear bomb, heh. Also, its not genocide. One could torch a sperm bank and no one would call that genocide. Genocide is a clear cut specific thing, the bomb was not systematic and Wolverines did not round up the Snow Raven populate and kill them; that would have been genocide. Funny thing that, wolverine does not kill snow raven civilians, but their survivors are sterilized.

[Ashla Mason]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 27 July 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

tried? they succeeded, how does your honor system negotiate with a nuclear bomb, heh. Also, its not genocide. One could torch a sperm bank and no one would call that genocide. Genocide is a clear cut specific thing, the bomb was not systematic and Wolverines did not round up the Snow Raven populate and kill them; that would have been genocide. Funny thing that, wolverine does not kill snow raven civilians, but their survivors are sterilized.

1. The clan honor based system responds to such cowardly antics by initiating a Trial of annihilation. Three guesses how well that went for clan wolverine.
2. It is genocide of the warrior caste (and since clan based society is structured the way it is the warrior caste simultaneously protects and advances the clan this was functionally destroying their future), your attempts to equivocate it notwithstanding.
3. The genetic repository (being as important as it is) isn't stuck in the middle of nowhere, it was located inside of their capitol so yeah: civilian losses were what might be called "staggering".
5. A trial of annihilation is as brutal as it is in order to ensure that the offending clan's taint is permanently removed and can't spread.

Edited by Ashla Mason, 27 July 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Ashla Mason, on 27 July 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

1. The clan honor based system responds to such cowardly antics by initiating a Trial of annihilation. Three guesses how well that went for clan wolverine.
2. It is genocide of the warrior caste (and since clan based society is structured the way it is the warrior caste simultaneously protects and advances the clan this was functionally destroying their future), your attempts to equivocate it notwithstanding.
3. The genetic repository (being as important as it is) isn't stuck in the middle of nowhere, it was located inside of their capitol so yeah: civilian losses were what might be called "staggering".
5. A trial of annihilation is as brutal as it is in order to ensure that the offending clan's taint is permanently removed and can't spread.

show me a source where is says that civilian causalties were 'staggering' and I will assent to that, far as I've read into the matter, the detonation of the nuclear device was physical property damage and destruction of the repository. Again, genocide is the systemic destruction of a given people, genes in a bank are not people, and a single detonation is not genocide. The Jihads nuclear path of destruction is genocide. Best thing about clan wolverine, it was the clans last best hope for sanity, and they were declared apostates and cast out.

[Ashla Mason]

I'm going to post this in an enlarged font, since you appaernetly have trouble reading what I wrote. The genetic repository of a clan is located inside of there capitol city, which has a large civilian population. A nuclear weapon is not a precision tool as it' yield is far too large. You can not target a single complex with it and not effect the surrounding area (not even going to go into fallout complications).

I admire your determination but you're basicly trying to look at the wolverines with rose tinted glasses and attempting to downplay a gross over-reaction by them that resulted in massive collaterol damage.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Ashla Mason, on 27 July 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

I'm going to post this in an enlarged font, since you appaernetly have trouble reading what I wrote. The genetic repository of a clan is located inside of there capitol city, which has a large civilian population. A nuclear weapon is not a precision tool as it' yield is far too large. You can not target a single complex with it and not effect the surrounding area (not even going to go into fallout complications).

I admire your determination but you're basicly trying to look at the wolverines with rose tinted glasses and attempting to downplay a gross over-reaction by them that resulted in massive collaterol damage.

fixed that for you, makes you seem less...'shouty.' You still have not provided me with the location of the rebel bas- I mean you still have not given me the page in the lore saying that the entire population or the majority of the population was wiped out. I'm arguing from a position of 'what's in the lore.' I also told you that once you give me the details then we can settle this, but until then I'm using the lore I know which dictates that the city was evacuated before detonation. It would also help if either one of us could cite the population of said city. There's also no 'rose-tinted' glasses, I'm just countering what you say by using the lore of the game.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 27 July 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Well, the Wolverines did drive all the citizens out of the city and used a low yield nuke, this is in Warriors of Kerensky page 12.

At any rate, destroying a Clan genetic repository is like denying a Clan its future, nasty stuff.

[Haruyuki]

Stormwolf, on 26 July 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

The Successor States can't even have a meeting without two heads of state declaring war on each other.

I'm not a clan supporter or hater... but I will point out one thing... Nevermind holding a meeting. They can't even hold a wedding without a declaration of war taking place! LOL... *pats old Max Liao on the back* There there, maybe you should have held the wedding instead... haha~

[Ashla Mason]

Thank you stormwolf, Just checked my copy and found that casualties would have been low due to the forced evacuation.

That having been said, the destruction of the city and the genetic repository crippled the clan to a degree that they never truly recovered.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

@storm: thanks for the confirmation.

Ashla Mason, on 27 July 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

That having been said, the destruction of the city and the genetic repository crippled the clan to a degree that they never truly recovered.

heh, that I can agree on, but hey 19 other clans backed the wolverines into a corner, and they put their Inner Sphere thinking caps on. Also, what about the duplicity of the Ghost Bears?

[Burnsidhe]

Jaroth Winson, on 26 July 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Funny how he posted this in the Clan section. I smell a troll.

Funny how the sticky at the top of the forum says, "All Clan topics go here." Isn't that amazing?

[Jaroth Winson]

Funny how topics like this have, in the past, been stated by devs, should be in the IS section. Isn't that amazing?

[Spectre Six]

I am a warrior of Clan Wolf.

This may go against everything I stand for, but until the clans invade, I will not harm any of you unless I am fired upon first.

[Taigen]

Jaroth Winson, on 27 July 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Funny how topics like this have, in the past, been stated by devs, should be in the IS section. Isn't that amazing?

Well, you and some other got baited by the OP trolling post and you and some others did bite.
There are 2 types of people frequenting this board: 1. People who are interested in Clans. 2. Trolls
As long as there are people from group 1 biting into this kind of threads started by group 2, then the trolls will always start new threads like this or some other similar ones that have been locked before. Stop feeding them , if you see this kind of threads next time, would help to simply put a "Troll Alert" for others , so they don't get baited.

[CCC Dober]

Yeah, just bury this thread and move on. Trolls gonna troll and haters gonna hate, that's their job.

[Elsydeon]

Noakei Siegel, on 27 July 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

Do not argue my Snow Raven legacy... Wolverine tried to destroy our complete genetic repository, which equals genocide for a clan. For the freebirth scum of the IS that might be different, quiaff?

Thankfully, the Not-Named Clan forgot about the backup on Strana Mechty. However, yes, it is a form of genocide to prevent people from having offspring. It just has a veil of nobility in that you are not slaughtering civilians.

Actually, thanks to wisdom of Khan Stephen McKenna, we did recover by being the Clan that decides if you get off-world or not by having enough WarShips to fight two Clans simultaneously and win.

[SakuranoSenshi]

No, genocide is killing a 'people' their future is something that can be debated endlessly but eliminating biological material is not genocide, genocide requires actual murders. It's a serious word with a specific meaning not to be thrown around lightly, albeit we're talking about fictional people and fictional events.

[Skylarr]

Burnsidhe, on 26 July 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Evil? Not particularly evil. But the Clans are no better than any of the Inner Sphere realms.

I'm surprised that Nicholas was allowed into the SLDF. A basic psych test should have shown his mental instability. Even so... Nicholas was not near the top of the chain of command. Even the 'second exodus' he led was very likely against orders.

Nicholas was 20 when the Exodus happened. He should have just graduated from the military academy. He had not attended Officer's Training School. Using rules in A Time Of War, page 73, it states all Mechwarriors go through a 2 year period of training and would graduate at age 18. Military Science, advance studies in Tactic, would take up another 2 year. Then Officer Training School takes another year.

Quote

Nicholas Kerensky (May 4, 2764 - October 7, 2834)

Quote

In 2784, after months of deliberation and reading the signs of a imminent war, Aleksandr gathered all of the surviving SLDF and offered them the choice to depart the Inner Sphere in a self-imposed exile. 80% of the remaining SLDF choose to follow him.

Both the IS and the Clans have had people who did barbaric events just to further their needs. Lets stop bringing up the past.

Edited by Skylarr, 02 August 2012 - 11:13 AM.