118 replies to this topic

[Syllogy]

Edit: Disclaimer: This post aims to point out the glaring flaws in trying to implement melee combat effectively in this PC Game, not with the accepted canon or Tabletop boardgame.

/rant On

What you people need to remember is that this game is not a pioneering game, it is a concept that has been developed since the original launch of the Mechwarrior PC game. It's First Person Tank Combat Design is Necessary and Inevitable.

Those who can't understand that,need to spend more time watching the Military Channel, and less time in the dadgum Battletech Wiki!

For the last few months, I've seen waves of threads and posts regarding Melee Combat.

Yes, Melee Combat is part of the Table Top.

AND

Yes, Melee Combat is documented in many novels that are considered Canon.

HOWEVER:

Melee Combat is not something that the current build can support.

And for those of you that keep quoting Tabletop rules, I'd like to point out that Monopoly says that I can buy property for $120 and build a house on it for $60. It's an extreme point of view, but I hope that you can understand why I say that Tabletop rules Do Not Apply to Mechwarrior Online.

TableTop Rules are a Guideline for Balance, NOT THE RULESET!

This is not about Canon or Realism, this is about Practicality of Programming and Realtime PC Gameplay.

Even if you disregard that trying to implement melee in any capacity would take (potentially) millions of dollars to concept, program, balance, and animate, it still wouldn't fit with the current target style that has become Mechwarrior for the PC.

If you've seen the videos from Beta, you will notice that MWO plays a lot like Mechwarrior 4. There are a few differences, but the concept is the same: Massive lumbering machines in First Person tank-esque combat.

For all of you people that are pining for Mechs going prone, rolling, side stepping, or doing dadgum Backflips, or any other types of acrobatics that only fits in something out of a bad Japanese Battletech ripoff, please, just let it go.

If an Atlas only travels at 45kph with a torso rotation of a few meters per second, how fast do you think it can swing a fist?

With a First Person Engine, how would you implement freeform combat? This ain't Batman: Arkham City meets Call of Duty.

In the end, the best melee combat expansions that I can see are: Kneeling (slowly), and Skyrim style FPS swinging.

Melee should be largely ineffective (or outlandish) except as a last resort if you are out of ammo, out of weapons, or out of any other options. Consider it a "Fixing Bayonets" option.

A well-placed weapon shot against your mech will set you on your tail, so will a ramming collision, so your tarded (no "re") Axeman will be eating Core Smoke since you decided to load out like a Tard-of-War by bringing an 20 ton Axe to a Cannon fight, when you could have had an AC20 instead.

This generation is so dadgum spoiled and lazy that they wouldn't know anything about Game Design and Programming if it walked up and snapped them in their little pink bras.

There, now you know how I feel.

/rant off

Edit: Update: After 5 pages of the Tabletoppers all screaming the same thing that they do on every thread; understand that what I am talking about is not how it works in Tabletop. It's that the current game cannot support it without being simplied, clumsy First Person Melee combat.

To break it down Barney Style: You'd be looking at Melee combat that would remind you of Elder Scrolls, not Batman: Arkham Asylum. So no "Death from above, put my fist into the cockpit, do a bodyslam-barrelroll-backbreaker-of-doom, and then roll out!"

To break it down SUPER BARNEY STYLE: I'm not saying that Melee can't be done, I am saying that Stylized Freeform Action Melee Combat Sequences aren't an option.

Edited by Syllogy, 29 July 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[VxSaAgE]

+1, would punt a baby seal in support.

[Insidious Johnson]

I disagree, melee ON!

[Galamere]

Sorry you feel that way man, personally, the old Hatchetman was one of my favorite old mechs, but that was the table top, nothing quite said 'bad ***' as much as leaping (jump jets) from behind a hill and pulling a Death from Above on the target, cleaving their right arm off before a salvo of med lasers or light auto cannons ripped open the hull.

Realistic? No, but if were going by that logic then my dropships would be sniping you all with their heavy gauss from orbit while the aerotech craft lay waste to your cities.

This is fiction, and the point is to have fun. Can it be implemented at this stage? Probably not, but there are those that will long to have their axes sharp and ready, or at least to use my atlas to punt some little 35 tone mech out of the way Hell, it was fun trying to make sure that, if said atlas was going to die, that it fell on the little annoyance that had been nipping at your heels all match

[Jagermech]

Syllogy, on 29 July 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

If an Atlas only travels at 45kph with a torso rotation of a few meters per second, how fast do you think it can swing a fist?

Rough math, at speed probably around 100 kph, which, assuming a 10 ton arm, is equivelent to 5 SUV's ramming the same spot at the same time at highway speeds.

Syllogy, on 29 July 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

This generation is so dadgum spoiled and lazy that they wouldn't know a real Mechwarrior title if it walked up and snapped them in their little pink bras.

Really?

Edited by Jagermech, 29 July 2012 - 06:57 PM.

[TG Xarbala]

Syllogy, on 29 July 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

/rant On

What you people need to remember is that this game is not a pioneering game, it is a concept that has been developed since the original launch of the Mechwarrior PC game. It's First Person Tank Combat Design is Necessary and Inevitable.

Those who can't understand that,need to spend more time on the Military Channel, and less time in the dadgum Battletech Wiki!

You misunderstand, sir. The universe of Battletech and Mechwarrior is not the future of modern warfare. There is no place for 40-foot tall bipedal weapons platforms in an age of guided missiles and information warfare, and such things weren't even conceivable when Battletech was made. Your note about "bad Japanese Battletech ripoffs" cuts a terrible and deep irony that we don't need to get into, but suffice to say that your concerns are a bit backwards.

No. Battletech is not a realistic military wargame, Mechwarrior is not a realistic military simulation.

They are part of a single universe best described in one phrase:

THE FUTURE OF THE SPACE EIGHTIES

battletech.jpg

[Scorpioneldar]

i loved the king crab use the claws for more than lasers

[JP Josh]

my custom atlsas had a mining drill on it and that was my only weapon besides a machine gun 2 tons of ammo and jump jets. i kicked *** in it. i think mining drills wont be in mwo but melee is a must but i can live with it being a while before its implemented.

ps its one reason why clans feared the atlas in close combat cause it had hands it could reach out with and poke the spot where the enemy pilot was thus capturing most of the clan mech.

[Xanquil]

Just because it is a tactic you can't understand or don't like dosn't make it a valid one. The only reason the other mechwarrior games didn't have melee was the game engine. MW:O engine can suport it, and in order to put some of the mechs into the game that will sell PGI will add it. Not on release but down the line. Likely melee will be treated just like another weapon attack, just a real short ranged one.

Just don't be suprised when that Charger hits you at full speed and destroys your left torso with it's fists. Or an Axeman takes your arm right off with that axe of his.

I'm sory if this bugs you but melee has been part of Battletech and thus mechwarrior for as long as it has been around.

[Bear Biter]

I agree with Syllogy that Macross style Kung Fu with rainbows coming out my 'mech's backside is not what Mechwarrior is about

but...

My single most epic memory from the original board game came from smashing my foe's cockpit while using my mech's severed arm as a club -- long after all my AC 20 ammo was a memory. Lumbering and no replacement for a good anti-armor weapon, sure, but widely fun just the same.

that said...I want a bayonet for my AC20.

[Galamere]

Hell, my buddy Lee used to take ten Flea's to the old tourneys, stripped off all the guns and the jump jets, upgraded the engine to the max, affixed a ram plate to the front of them (A legal weapon!) and then put on armor. He'd send them in three at a time and cut the legs off of the other mechs by charging the legs at like 160+ KPH, if a few died, oh well, he had more

Then the organizers changed it so that you couldn't bring more than five mechs, so he was stuck with some of the 'proper' mechs for battle like the OP suggested, only to have the cockpits sniped out by gauss first round every time thereafter. It seems like his 'flea infestation' was cheese, but not the 100 ton tank with three gauss and targeting assist.

[Ixar]

Without a dedicated melee weapon (ala Hatchetman) I can see melee combat being impractical. But if you have a mech DESIGNED around the concept of running around the battlefield like a crazy juggalo then it would be capable of some of the more improbable things you're talking about.

I wouldnt advocate allowing kung fu in mechwarrior, but allowing melee combat in mechs designed around melee combat only makes sense.

[Galamere]

Syllogy, on 29 July 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

For all of you people that are pining for Mechs going prone, rolling, side stepping, or doing dadgum Backflips, or any other types of acrobatics that only fits in something out of a bad Japanese Battletech ripoff, please, just let it go

This was something else rather amusing, you do know that Battletech and Mechwarrior were rip offs in of themselves right? From the very thing you're mentioning, Macross/Robotech.

Edited by Galamere, 29 July 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[Seraphax]

Oh my, melee is a must. If i can give you damage from running into you, imagine the fun you could have smashing axes into the back of someones cockpit or punt kicking that annoying light down to the valley below!

[Tyzh]

My walking tanks are walking tanks and nothing more! I curse you and your fantastical views on kicking and punching! There is no room for fantasy in my giant stomping robots! No room at all!

!

[Derek Victor]

I can see a melee mech being viable although some changes will obviously need to be made first for it. First and foremost I would agree that you'll need mechs designed around that form of combat for it to be used much at all. Mechs that are designed to use their ACs, lasers, etc. aren't going to have much in the way of ability to attack when it comes to melee combat. Especially the mechs that don't have any "arms" to swing to speak of. You'll also want to work on the maps to make sure that it isn't unbalanced one way or another for melee mechs to take on a standard mech. Since I would imagine that since a melee can have more armor than a standard mech since their only weaponry is going to be their mass and/or some melee weapon such as an axe you don't want to make it too easy for them to sneak up and get in close on a non melee mech. Overall an interesting idea though.

[Iron Harlequin]

Oh great and wise arbiter of MWO give us more reasons why melee shouldn't be in game.....

[MajorLeeHung]

yea hi! Im sorry who are you again? oh wait your a troll. Please move on. kthxbai

[Burnt Nipples]

The only Mechwarrior campaign i played in the clan invasion period I piloted a Berserker. Most the campaigns I played were in the 3030s and kicking always came up. I honestly can't think about battletech as a property without melee combat, even though its largely been ignored by the games.

That said I'd like to point out a number of things:
1. Melee combat makes range more of a counterplay mechanic. Medium lasers and other short range weapondry in battletech are silly efficient, the potential for the mech to close with you and kick your leg off helps introduce some degree of counterplay to the jump on your face with a mech with 100 machine guns, or tons of srms, or tons of medium/small lasers.
2. Melee combat, in particular kicks, are a relevant way to make legs matter more in a fps tank adaption. In TT legs matter cause you aren't calling shots, in a FPS its reasonably sane to avoid shooting the heavily armored area that continues moving.
3. Melee combat allows for more interesting equipment and a small number of rather distinctive mech designs that can't rationally be included without it. The Axeman, Hatchetman, Berserker, and No-daichi are all very distinctive Battletech designs that read less like generic anime mechs than many others.
4. Melee combat can and has been done well before in FPS style games, try Xenoclash. Would it appeal to everyone, probably not, but it could make matches much more interesting.
5. Melee combat gives a way for crippled but not destroyed mechs (all weapons destroyed, or ammunition depleted) to remain relevant in the game until they are destroyed.

I understand chance of inclusion seems slim, and some people react negatively towards melee but I think it adds alot of potential value to the property.

Edited by Burnt Nipples, 29 July 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[Radgor Ryan]

LOL OP. I almost took you seriously till you said bad Japanese Battletech ripoff...

Macross was indeed first, big, and awesome. While I have played BT for 25+ years, I certainly know if it wasn't for Macross I doubt BT would have gotten off the ground. Nobody would have bought into the rubbish artwork from CityTech. That's why the Unseen are so important to us. Guess you weren't around then.