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Does Honor still have a place?


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#21 John Clavell

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:30 AM

One thing people need to remember that what worked in a single player experience wont balance well in a multiplayer game. That is the first rule so what ever happens it has to fit into that box. PGI have said they wont use stick, only carrots. They did indeed discuss how the honour system might be used to help balance the Clan vs Inner Sphere, giving much greater rewards to fighting via Clan honour rules, while giving out considerable less rewards for anyone who did not work within that system.

Also, as far as I know anyway, the Clans would specifically target legs when and if possible (in lore). The idea for them was to down an enemy mech in a condition that it would be totally salvageable. The whole Clan system is based on control of their small resources and minimising their exposure to loses. When forces are deployed, it should be as clear and transparent as possible, though even among the Clans this does not always happen.

#22 Amarus Cameron

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 06:26 AM

View PostVirgil Caine, on 09 January 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Zellbrigen's rules generally get discarded very early on by Clan Players... Most people who select Clans basically say "I get better stuffz!!! wewt" Then they pick a clan with a neato symbol, and behave like Inner Sphere pilots.

The most overlooked rules of Zellbrigen... Everyone knows the single-combat rules, but most people forget these...

1. You cannot move out of weapon range. Which basically means you must always either maintain current range, or close range. If you get inside their AC20's range, you MUST STAY THERE.


Simply untrue, you must stay within a general weapon range. Also if you are 10 tons or more outweighed in tonnage you may bend these rules with no loss to honor, you may break line of sight, you may run behind the enemy, and you may move outside of weapon range. It is on the more powerful mech and its pilot to make you pay for your indiscretions. Now obviously if you win without using the crutch afforded you then you gain more honor.

View PostVirgil Caine, on 09 January 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

2. You cannot intentionally break Line of Sight... which means, no taking cover. No hiding behind hills and stuff like that.


Read the above comment, also depends on the Clan. Wolves had been known to mine the field they would chose when they were about to be challenged and then call that field as the battlefield, other clans would call fowl and it certainly does break the spirit of the law but the wolves put the mines in the battlefield and are now part of it and the other warriors should have paid attention to their surroundings.

Using cover is honorable or not dependent on many situations. In tabletop you had three turns to get back into line of sight before you were declared dezgra, and that could be less if you had a very strict clan, like my own.

View PostVirgil Caine, on 09 January 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

3. If you can fire a weapon, you must fire that weapon. (heat permitting) So you cannot refrain from firing your AC20 at the long end of it's range increment, just to conserve ammo until you close in easy close-in shot. Neither can you refrain from firing your ERPPC's to conserve heat for a closer in alpha-strike with other weapons.


You contradicted yourself, you said (heat permitting) above but then said that you had to alpha...so that is the first mistake. The second is that this is to keep the fight moving and to come to a quick conclusion. If you decide not to fire a weapon because you know you will not hit with it then that is more honorable because the clans abhor waste, if you win with just laser weapons then that is more honorable than emptying you magazines for the sake of it. Again it varies by clan, but the abhorrence of waste is universal, it is just adhered to by varying degrees.

View PostVirgil Caine, on 09 January 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Munchkins love having the best weapons in the game, but almost never use these Rules, using the "Inner Sphere is dishonorable" cop-out.


Understand the rules better before calling people out on them. Also if you as an enemy have shown that you are not worthy of Zellbringen combat then it would dishonor us as warriors to give you the honor of Zellbringen combat. And let us be clear, the Inner Sphere has a military of soldiers...not warriors. They lost their right to complain about Zellbringen a long time ago. If anyone wishes to challenge myself to a duel I or any other Jaguar will always comply...if the challenger is worth it. Sorry but Joe Schmechwarrior does not get an auto duel.

#23 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 06:30 AM

Let's give it up for Amarus! Very well put counter argument for the Clans Amarus. Keep it up...

#24 Threat Doc

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 08:17 AM

View PostThorqemada, on 09 January 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Well, it seems i am dishonourable scum then, but if i can shot a leg i will do.
I simply dont understand why i should destroy a mech when i can preserve most of its value.
The idea is that you're not targeting any specific location at all. Do you aim, yes, of course you have to, but if you are consistently aiming and hitting in the very same location all the time, and it can put down a 'Mech or remove their ability to make war in such a way that removes their ability to continue being a warrior, it's dishonorable, period.

Does it make sense to remove a leg and down a 'Mech as quickly as possible? Yes, you bet it does. Does it allow the warrior losing the leg to maintain their honor, to give them the best, most fair, opportunity to continue in the combat, being defeated on the most fair basis possible? No. It's not about the 'Mech, it's about your opponent.

Let's put it another way. If I remove YOUR 'Mech's leg, put you down, and you go into limbo, get kicked back to the lobby of the game, is it going to matter to you that your play time just got reduced to a few minutes rather than the full combat period? Especially if you have the delusion that your crap don't stink on the battlefield, and some twitcher just put you down in the first few minutes of the match?

Quote

no i dont understand the honour of destroying what can be preserved!
That's because it's not about the 'Mech! It's about the pilot. Honor is for people, between people, not machines.

Quote

Well, to speak out my question - you Clanners wont force IS-Scums like me to play obeying to your values of Honor?
I'm not a Clan player, but I think I will answer, anyway... I don't think they're going to have time to worry about forcing anyone else, nor would anyone else have the time, to force anyone to do anything, except perhaps to lose.

Honor is corporative only in its definition by the community and its chosen adherence by the individual. Honor is not determined by the individual, typically a warrior, it is determined by the community, including the warriors, and it is obeyed by individuals, not the community. It is like a set of laws, as written, which are generally, notice I said GENERALLY formed because of individuals who do something unsavory, malicious, or harmful to another. The community, by judges and law-makers, forms the law to help guide society in the right direction, a direction chosen by the majority, even if pushed by a lawmaker and enacted by their peers, generally. Those who fail to obey what the community has wrought as law and good will, are penalized and, generally, shunned by the community having formed the laws. There are also those who, given the opportunity, would disobey they law, and they are just as bad, just as guilty, as those who've broken the laws, they just haven't been caught, prosecuted, and penalized for it, yet. Honor is another form of law, whose only real penalty is the shunning by the community.

In the days of MechWarrior 2 and 3, laws about legging, heading, back-shooting (not shoting), firing on shut-down or prone units, were made to allow the WARRIOR on the other side to have as much fun, as good a time, as possible before being taken out by an enemy pilot by skill, not pin-point accuracy. The reason those rules, spoken or unspoken, monitored or not, were formed was because those previous games allowed for pin-point accuracy, the twitcher mentality and 'skill' being formed from that, although, as with the Ares Conventions, those rules only lasted a couple of years. I do not believe we will have that problem in this game; if you aim anything but a laser at a specific location, and there's no terrain in the way, and you aim at a leg, you'll be a good deal more likely to hit the ground around the 'Mech, rather than the leg.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 10 January 2012 - 08:18 AM.


#25 Thorqemada

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:01 AM

Well, in the many books i have read i had become the feeling that its usually very difficult to hit a mechs leg and only the best of the best pilots cold do that with their superior skills compared to their opponents.
I am totally against having a Mech jump an be able to hit with pinpointaccuracy while jumping or for a short time after the landing bcs imo while jumping or landing or moving or being hit the mech would make many unexpected contortions and its simply impossible to jump snipe and jump leg, or leg and whatever which is so popular among some players.
There is only pinpointaccuracy if a mech stand still and gets not hit by anything and has time to aim carefull.
I mean the weapons should have a slight lag bcs of the mass the mech is a big pile a ore which should make it lag, etc.
So imho legging should be no option bcs of the difficulty controling a mech that precise outside of carefull laid out ambushes.

Edited by Thorqemada, 10 January 2012 - 12:14 PM.


#26 guardian wolf

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:33 AM

View PostGeist Null, on 09 January 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

i find the clan rules silly at best. theres no room for honor in a numbers game. take out a leg you get more salvage. take out a mech from an ambush position with zero risk and you dont have to pay repairs. kill an ejected pilot and maybe he cant see which way you left the area with a deathcam or maybe stop his ability to spawn in a new mech. everyone loses in a war. so the only victory anyone can truely achieve is winning with the smallest margin of loss.

*shakes his head* Don't you understand, that is why we use the honor rules, to makes sure that the mech isn't totally destroyed, and I'm sorry you don't have the steel to come out and face me like a warrior, but remember this trashborn, I'll let you break the rules of Zellbrigen, and when you do, you will have unleashed the worst thing not only on yourself, but also your comrades, total annihilation.

#27 Amarus Cameron

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:58 AM

View Postguardian wolf, on 10 January 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

*shakes his head* Don't you understand, that is why we use the honor rules, to makes sure that the mech isn't totally destroyed, and I'm sorry you don't have the steel to come out and face me like a warrior, but remember this trashborn, I'll let you break the rules of Zellbrigen, and when you do, you will have unleashed the worst thing not only on yourself, but also your comrades, total annihilation.


I do not normally agree with Wolves but I wholeheartedly agree with what this one is saying.

Although a side note, 'trashborn' is what freeborns call trueborns...we would call him freebirth scum or something of the like

#28 Stormwolf

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:48 PM

Here is the wall of text I promised, I didn't spellcheck, so bare with it.

Most of the people in the thread think that the Clan honor rules are a stupid way of handicapping themselves, but really it is a way to balance out gameplay with the Inner Sphere players. There are also some rewards to be reaped along the way.

I'll divide this into a number of chunks that are somewhat easier to read.


Clan tech and mech deployment
You see, Clan tech is rather overpowered compared to IS tech in the TT. This was horribly toned down in the previous Mechwarrior games. A Atlas AS7-K is actually weaker then a Timber Wolf/Mad Cat Prime for instance. The most powerful IS assault is barely a match for a high end heavy Clan mech. I'm not even gonna mention the other weapons, but just look at those Clan Er Large Lasers. Those things can shave of quite a bit of armor before the Atlas even comes into firing range of its own weapons, it would quickly negate any armor advantage the Atlas initially had.

The advantages of better tech allows a Clan player to take on multiple IS units in a fight. But you might think "hey that's unfair and unbalanced", keep in mind that the Clan side is going to deploy less mechs then the IS side. It will probably be one star (5 mechs) vs 2 lances (8 mechs) or maybe even 3 lances if BV comes into play.

Now many of you will think that even 8 light/medium IS mechs can't beat 5 Dire Wolves/Daishi's. Well, you are right, but there is a way to ensure a fair fight from the start.
It is called bidding, during bidding a number of Clan commanders try to one up each other by fielding less and lighter mechs. The commander with the least mechs and/or tonnage will win the bidding. I recon that bidding will take place ingame by just having individual players pick lighter mechs (or mechs with less BV) during the mech selection.

Anyway, the warriors who didn't bid down can't enter the battle because they field too much tonnage. Having to rely on a 100 ton mech all the time without bidding down is a sign that a warrior is not skilled enough to fight in a battle that is not to his/her advantage.
It will annoy the hell out of munchkins that they can't use their 100 tonner to stomp on a couple of 25 ton mechs.

In past games like MW2 you got a ton of honor points by fielding a mech lower then the suggested tonnage. I assume that honor points would work in similar ways to loyalty points for IS factions. So you are really opening up possiblities and unlocking all the cool goodies by being honorable.

So honorable behaviour starts before you even start the mission.


Honor rules in combat
The part people talk the most about in this thread. Honor rules are far more flexible then you think. Amarus Cameron explained the individual rules far better then I could have, so I won't be taking them apart here.

People have voiced their opinion that it is foolish to play with honor rules. Sure, I'll give you that it isn't the most efficient way of fighting, but it is important for Clan players to progress beyond "grunt" levels.

It isn't all that hard to play under honorrules, you only need to know how to play them. Now let's shamelessly lift some text from the Total War book:

Quote

You are playing the Clans in a scenario with Honor Level
1. You have one Daishi and your opponent has four ’Mechs:
a Banshee, an Orion, an Atlas and a Spider. The Spider
challenges the Daishi to a duel, which the Daishi accepts. The
Spider then uses its superior movement rate to hide behind hills
and heavy woods so that the Daishi never gets line of sight to
it. Meanwhile, the other three members of the Spider’s lance
pound the Daishi to dust. The Daishi cannot retaliate because
its player must adhere to Clan honor, which in this case means
he can only attack the ’Mech that challenged him to a duel. He
vainly attempts to chase the Spider, while “off -limits” enemies
destroy his BattleMech.


Oh boy, it doesn't look good for the Dire Wolf pilot here. Now a smart Clan pilot would have declined the Spider's challenge for being too light and simply challenged the entire lance to take him on. Fighting 4 mechs at the same time is going to net you more honor then pounding a lone Spider into dust. All of this is within honor level 1, the strictist honor level of all. Now I doubt that honor levels will be implemented in such a fashion. It still shows that no matter how strict you are, you can always find ways to keep the game balanced.

I bet that some of you must be thinking right now that a confrontation with a number of Clan warriors could get tricky since they outrange all of you. Better use artillery like Arrow IV's to take them apart from long range, they don't have anything like that. Well you are wrong, we have these neat little mechs called the Naga and Bowman. They have both been around for 70+ years when we reach 3050.

There is a reason why mechs like the Mist Lynx A carry a TAG even when it is frowned upon. It is a Smoke Jaguar design no less, so even the strictist of the strict can be flexible in its use.

Furthermore, there are a number of non-canon rules floating around on the web, I got this list from http://ppc.warhawkenterprises.com

let's have a look

A Warrior will never fire on a 'Mech already engaged with another opponent. This means that no double teaming or gang banging allowed.

Sure, but there are exceptions to this rule. The engaged mech could challenge you to join the fight (not very likely for IS players). A trial can turn into a grand melee if one side keeps breaking the honor rules, in that case anything goes.

Dishonorale opponents can also expect this treatment.

A Warrior will at no time initiate physical attack, such as charging, punching, kicking, or clubbing.
Only in the event that a Warrior has no more weapons at his or her disposal, may the he or she engage in physical attacks.

Clans merely find physical attacks distasteful, but will not shy away from them.
We are talking about guys here who played with combat knives instead of Lego when they were growing up.

Following these basic guidelines ensure that a Clan Warrior will fight with honor. There are other conditions to RoE, that individual Clans will follow. For example, depending on the Clan, a Warrior may or may not be able to:

Fire on a retreating 'Mech

You may not fire upon a mech that was granted hegira (the right to withdraw honorably), anything else is fair game. Besides, Clan warriors would think that they'd be doing the fleeing mechwarrior a favor by giving him a honorable death.

Fire on a shutdown or fallen 'Mech

You seriously deserve to be shot if you allow this to happen. Now a shutdown mech that doesn't have a pillot in it is a different story, any true Clan warrior would allow the mech to power up to engage it in a fight.

Fire at the rear of a 'Mech

I bet this one has to do with the retreating mech we discussed earlier. Seriously, the back of the mech is as valid a target as any other part.

Target the head of a 'Mech

I salute you if you if you are capable enough to get one of these shots in. It isn't as easy as you think to hit a moving mech in such a spot.

Now there has been mention of not targetting the limbs of a mech, but it has origin that can be traced back to MW2. You see, there is a cheatcode that will allow you to see the bounding spheres of a mech. The bounding spheres of the limbs are quite massive and will take damage even when you don't directly target the 3D model. People stopped targetting them because they always hit. I'm sure that today's tech is a bit more advanced, not every shot is going to hit the leg of a moving mech.

Now, I mentioned some technicalities of combat there. But the most important aspect is that you gain tons of honor by proving of how badass you are.

So, go into battle pick your targets and blast them with your superior range weapons so they know that they have picked to fight. And be smart about who you challenge. Those two Catapults behind that hill would be excellent targets for fast Clan mechs who circle around the brawler mechs to engage the artillery before they can fire.


Rank, Bloodnames and tournaments
The more observant people here will have noticed that there are a ton of Jade Falcon fans with the name "Pryde" in their username. There is quite a bit of backstory to this specific Bloodname, but I don't feel like writing a summary of the Jade Phoenix Trilogy here.

Clan warriors do not have real last names, the Clan name usually replaces the spot of where the last name would be (Phelan Wolf for instance). The Bloodname is important for Clan players to get ranks higher then Star Captain, which ingame should give you quite a number of options.

The Bloodname is the grand prize, in the lore the most powerful warriors of a Clan won bloodnames. Those warriors were deemed worthy to have their DNA added to the genepool from which new Clan trueborns are created. Ingame it is proof of how good you are, honor is everything here.

You need to be sponsored by a Clan warrior to even compete for a bloodname. Lame players who never played honorable would never even be considered for this. The initial picks here would likely come from the devs, later we would have bloodnamed players sponsor other candidates. There is a option for people to enter who weren't sponsored by entering in the grand blood name melee (which is a complete meatgrinder).

After that we have 1 on 1 tournament fights, it is just you and the guy you are fighting for all these battles. Win this and you are among the elite of the elite in a Clan. In the lore this had a ton of advantages. Ingame it would be a way to unlock mechs and field more troops in a mission.


Now, let's say you are a guy who went from lowely Mechwarrior to bloodnamed Star Colonel. Don't you think it's awesome that you achieved all this and got tons of cool stuff along the way?

Any munchkin will quickly be outperformed by Clan players who stick to honor, the rewards will be worth it. Don't play honorably and you're probably nothing more then a meatshield for the rest since you have the heaviest mech and a bad reputation with the IS players.


And if you are really at a loss about the things I mentioned, then I suggest reading these trilogies:
http://www.sarna.net...ood_of_Kerensky
http://www.sarna.net...he_Jade_Phoenix

#29 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 04:03 PM

Awesome explanation StormWolf. I really hope people understand that, if they don't then I don't think we are getting it through to them period. And, yes, please do not shout trashborn around for the reason it is anti clan... The only other thing I would add to what StormWolf has said is that not only do individual clans have different interpretations of Zellbrigen, but seperate Clusters, Galaxies, and even smaller units can have their own interpretations of them. This means that even if a certain clan allows firing on fleeing mechs one of their trinaries or even mechwarriors may choose not too because they do not believe it fits...

#30 Petroff Northrup

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 04:08 PM

Honor should always be followed, one must always remember tht not everyone has the same code of honor though, especially among clans, Clan Hell's Horses for example is less likely to setup a battle to fight you in a series of zellbrigen duels and instead will allow you to do so, then refuse your requests and proceed to flank you with tanks.


As for honor rules directly, there are both written and unwritten rules for honorable combat, I always say go with your gut, if it feels wrong, it likely is and you should remain true to your honor.

Edited by Petroff Northrup, 10 January 2012 - 04:09 PM.


#31 flessar

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 05:06 PM

View PostStormwolf, on 10 January 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

*eyes go cross*



I am an FRR merc, not a clan warrior. I will fight to survive against imposible odds because the person paying me say's to, and because the salvage on the other end of victory makes the next fight that much more survivable. I dont have the luxury of choosing when/where/how/why to fight. I am given the orders outlined in my contract and fufil it to the best of my units ability to do so.

If I have the luxury of being able to simply fight 1vs1 then I will, but more then likely I will be alpha'd by your entire star the second they see me. And yet you will all pat your selves on the back and talk about how much honor you just gained. I fight for survival and the honor of my word when I sign that next contract, if my future employer's cant trust me to uphold my end they wont hire me. You fight for the lulz and back slaps of *superior race*.

How many times have you read in the books or any where that is cannon, that the clanner didnt close to medium range of close in after letting off a few volleys of long range? Yet all I have seen is constant LRM/ERLL/ERPPC spam fests that refuse to allow a fight to occur and replace it with a massacre. If you want to shout foul on us for violating Zel, why dont you follow the ______ thing first before _______ about us being dishonorable.

And regardless of what you say, the clan's commited the ultimate act of cowardace when Kerensky fled the inner sphere rather then stop the comming succesion wars. He had the power to do so, instead he left and seald the fate of ten's of millions of lives, and started the grand cycle of eugenic's and selective breeding that only histories worst are remembered for. Kerensky chose to back down from the challenge that he had the equipment and personnel to face, and chose the easy path of retreat, though he claims he was taking tools of destruction far from the hands of those that would use them for destruction. Was he refering to his own then? For they were only his to use, nearly none of his soldiers would have abbanoned him then. He just killed the man who tore the Star League apart, he was a walking legend.

So those SLDF members that stay'ed behind were the real hero's, with the courage to continue to face life's challenges, rather then seek an excuse to flee. Many of them went on to lead Mercenary groups that live on to this day and continue to uphold the true Star League's ideals. Not the twisted barbarism that you spout.

(OOC: Btw, the character I play as will have several family members killed/imprisoned by the clan's in the periphery during your initial wave into the innersphere. So he really doesnt like yall. And it doesnt help that the part about the combat observence is what I actually see when playing MW2/3/4 through the years. / Note: This doesnt include the recent Megamek matches where the Clan opposition from WiE has actually played well and closed to within 1hex several times. Lucky HD shots and unlucky Aero-space crashes have insured IS victories thus far, but that likely wont happen much longer)

#32 Tilley

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 07:31 PM

I have enjoyed the responses thus far and it appears that honor still holds a place in Mechwarrior combat. I understand that some may choose to disregard such highly trained philosophies and will choose death instead. To them, I wish all of the best luck. Once they realize that individual honor is really just a way for one pilot to show his true skill, the masses may turn our way. Clan honor is another story and more of a set of guidelines to be followed without prejudice. I look forward to an honorable battlefield, one that seeks to eliminate scum from the atmosphere and invite glory to the arena. My regards gentlemen....

{B.L.} MadMaxx Alpha Commander (retired)

#33 Virgil Caine

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:17 PM

My post was about specific rules of Zellbrigen, not "Honor" per se. All rules are open to interperetation, I'm simply saying that what happens generally is that most Clan Players will say "ooh big shiny" and be completely uninformed of Clan honor systems or any of the rules of Cellbrigen whatsoever.

The players that 'do' recognize "Honor" often interperet 'dishonorable' to mean 'something my opponent does that puts me at a disadvantage.'

My post about ERPPCs/Heat. "Heat Permitting" means blowing yourself up by overheating is stupid, so obviously you don't do that. But, weapons have different ranges of course, odds are the opponent is going to come into your PPC range before he comes into your SRM6/AC20 range isn't he? Not using the PPC's, which would build up heat on your mech at long range, and thus limit the number of combined closer ranged weapons you could fire together later is not allowed, there is simply no reason to not fire the PPC if you have the range. Further, if you know you 'cannot' hit with the weapon, then you are by definition not in range...

Never said anything about 'you must alpha'. Nevertheless the rule is a part of Zellbrigen, if you can fire a weapon you must. Meaning you cannot lie in wait for a 'perfect' shot, if the enemy has presented any shot at all. Rule was made to prevent ambush tactics.

As a side note, Clan Mechwarriors are not trained to assume they will miss, they take the hard shot because it proves they are the best. To refrain from the challenge, is cowardice.

As a completely other point: I reserve the right to decide what I define as Honor.


Virgil's Code of Honor.
Rule 1. Peacemaking is Honorable. War, by definition, is not.
Rule 2. The goal of a warrior is to end it the war as quickly as possible, and return to Honorable Peace.
Rule 3. Combat is unfair, harsh and vile, If you do not have the stomach for combat, do not create pretty rules to make it easier to stomach, Leave the field.
Rule 4. I will destroy my opponent and his means to wage war in any and every way I possibly can, by whatever means I can muster, and in as timely a fashion as I am able, and with as excessive force as I can muster to dissuade him from returning to combat.
Rule 5. I will bring my friends, and we will work together. Comraderie is the only shred of honor that can come out of war, and I will preserve that.

Edited by Virgil Caine, 10 January 2012 - 09:46 PM.


#34 Ravn

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostVirgil Caine, on 10 January 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Further, I reserve the right to decide what I define as Honor.

I think you mean to say, you reserve the right to define your own set of ethics. Honor is the ability to hold to one's own or collective set of ethics. To seem honorable, you need to meet the code of ethics others judge you by.


Edited by Ravn, 10 January 2012 - 09:49 PM.


#35 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:51 PM

View PostVirgil Caine, on 10 January 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

My post was about specific rules of Zellbrigen, not "Honor" per se. All rules are open to interperetation, I'm simply saying that what happens generally is that most Clan Players will say "ooh big shiny" and be completely uninformed of Clan honor systems or any of the rules of Cellbrigen whatsoever.

The players that 'do' recognize "Honor" often interperet 'dishonorable' to mean 'something my opponent does that puts me at a disadvantage.'


Ok mate... First of all, this thread is about ensuring that clanners fight by honor so as to balance the game as much as follow BT Lore. The ideal setup for Clans and IS is to reward Clan players who fight by Honor and punish(or simply not reward)Clan players who do not. The thing you seem to miss is that almost every single Clan oriented player in here(Myself included)is pushing heavily to have the clans need to adhere to Honor rules. These kind of rules would also help weed out the ones who rush to the clans or w/e because they want the best tech and/or mechs as they would soon find out they weren't really getting anywhere and advancing to the good stuff for clans when they play dishonorably.

To be completely honest with you, there are many Clan players here, including myself, that WILL Adhere to the rules of Zellbrigen and WANT other Clan players to be forced to or be punished/not get anywhere.

Edited by Phelan Kerensky, 10 January 2012 - 09:54 PM.


#36 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:53 PM

View PostRavn, on 10 January 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

I think you mean to say, you reserve the right to define your own set of ethics. Honor is the ability to hold to one's own or collective set of ethics. To seem honorable, you need to meet the code of ethics others judge you by.





This is another reason why having many Clan players like myself, Amarus, StormWolf, and many many others who WILL follow Zellbrigen is a great thing. We can pressure those that do not. A human being wishes to fit in, you would not believe the power of man's craving to fit into groups. This will help conform everyone in the Clans(or most at least)to follow Zellbrigen. This is good for the game in the sense of fluff/Lore and also balance for both the Clans and IS...

#37 Ravn

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:04 PM

LOL, says the Smoke Jaguar. Experts in moral relativism.

Edit: Awww, he got deleted.

Edited by Ravn, 10 January 2012 - 10:05 PM.


#38 Virgil Caine

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:05 PM

View PostPhelan Kerensky, on 10 January 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:


Ok mate... First of all, this thread is about ensuring that clanners fight by honor so as to balance the game as much as follow BT Lore. The ideal setup for Clans and IS is to reward Clan players who fight by Honor and punish(or simply not reward)Clan players who do not. The thing you seem to miss is that almost every single Clan oriented player in here(Myself included)is pushing heavily to have the clans need to adhere to Honor rules. These kind of rules would also help weed out the ones who rush to the clans or w/e because they want the best tech and/or mechs as they would soon find out they weren't really getting anywhere and advancing to the good stuff for clans when they play dishonorably.

To be completely honest with you, there are many Clan players here, including myself, that WILL Adhere to the rules of Zelbrigen and WANT other Clan players to be forced to or be punished/not get anywhere.

View PostPhelan Kerensky, on 10 January 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:


This is another reason why having many Clan players like myself, Amarus, StormWolf, and many many others who WILL follow Zellbrigen is a great thing. We can pressure those that do not. A human being wishes to fit in, you would not believe the power of man's craving to fit into groups. This will help conform everyone in the Clans(or most at least)to follow Zellbrigen. This is good for the game in the sense of fluff/Lore and also balance for both the Clans and IS...



I admire your intent, but in practice I highly doubt this will happen.

You are a fan of the game outside the context of a 'competetive online mech combat game'. Knowing about the lore, and the aesthetic mechanics of the game, you understand the necessity for the ideological differences of the clans/inner sphere as a balancing aspect of the board game.

Thing is most gamers don't care. They want what mechanically gives them the greatest edge, They will see clan technology as superior, and select it, and not care about all that nonsense. As a matter of fact, they will go out of their way to troll, and be even more dishonorable just because you infringed on their "I get to be the best" mindset. What will end up happening, and mark it down. Is that those clanners who insist on "honor" and such, will end up being ridiculed by the rest, rather than the inverse.

When it comes to Massively Multiplayer games, you cannot use limitations on player behavior as a balancing tool. It simply does not work. Players will do whatever they can get away with. What you do, is limit the tools available for them to use. So, the more team-work based information-warfare, combined arms tools go to Inner Sphere. The more individual-achievement oriented self-empowering abilities go to Clans.

#39 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:09 PM

One problem with that, the ideas that myself and others have outlined will have players that do not follow Zellbrigen not advance. This would NOT be desirable at all, even for those who rushed to Clans for superior Tech. If they get no where and are unable to use the tech because they play dirty they will finally realize how bad they are doing/advancing and leave to IS again or stay and if they cannot advance then they won't be much of a problem for IS anyway... I would say that such a system could very much be worked out and be pulled off...

#40 Ravn

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:16 PM

Exactly. The bidding system for instance. Zell after the drop will be much harder to monitor. How do you monitor fair play in game without breaking the flow of the game?





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