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Does Honor still have a place?


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#41 Virgil Caine

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:19 PM

View PostPhelan Kerensky, on 10 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

One problem with that, the ideas that myself and others have outlined will have players that do not follow Zellbrigen not advance. This would NOT be desirable at all, even for those who rushed to Clans for superior Tech. If they get no where and are unable to use the tech because they play dirty they will finally realize how bad they are doing/advancing and leave to IS again or stay and if they cannot advance then they won't be much of a problem for IS anyway... I would say that such a system could very much be worked out and be pulled off...



Question. How do you "code" for "Playing Dirty". How does the computer server know which clanner is playing dirty and which is not? Further, any system created, will be abused. I guarantee that as well. Computers have no ingenuity. Humans with Ingenuity WILL break the system.

The more complex you make the system, the easier it will be to break...

You balance a game by limiting tools, not by limiting behavior.

#42 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:31 PM

Sure there will be those who bypass the computer and still do what they do. However, they will likely be in the minority at that point and most Clanners(especially the well esteemed ones)will fight Honorably and follow the rules. Either way, a system such as this could be very helpful to convince many to fight with Honor and the ones who are willing to take so much time out and have patience enough to figure out how to bypass the system all the time are likely the one who plan to do it no matter what anyway and are Surats who just want to "pawn" everyone and "ruin" the game...

#43 Ralinos

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:47 PM

A public reputation system may help in identifying those who fight with honor and those who do not. Perhaps after battle, opponents could rate another's "honorable" actions. Thus, there's a public system to see how trustworthy someone is from their past actions. This system has its own problems, but it may be an interesting solution.

#44 Virgil Caine

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:05 AM

View PostRalinos, on 10 January 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

A public reputation system may help in identifying those who fight with honor and those who do not. Perhaps after battle, opponents could rate another's "honorable" actions. Thus, there's a public system to see how trustworthy someone is from their past actions. This system has its own problems, but it may be an interesting solution.


Who would vote? Your allies, who you probably joined the game with to begin with, so already have a favorable attitude toward you? I can just see guilds spam-voting each other for free 'honor' (guilds self-promotion voting, yayyyyy)

Your enemies vote? Yeah they're going to be disposed to voting for your conduct after having their butt handed to them. "OMG he beat me!!! DISHONORABLE!"

Sorry, just don't think it's practicable. All you can do is 'encourage' honorable play, there's no way to punish 'dishonorable' play. The best ways to encourage a certain type of play is to use mechanics to do so. If you want clanners to use 1v1 duels, then you need a gameplay system that encourages, rewards, and empowers them to do it.

Another point to illustrate is this. Clan Warriors are allowed to fire upon as many enemies as they wish, so long as none of those enemies has been fired upon by another Warrior. So the one illustration of the light mech hiding while his remaining lance destroys the enemy doesn't wash. The warrior is free to attack the others.

Most importantly, a warrior can return fire against any opponent that fires at them, regardless of previous engagements.

#45 Tilley

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 07:34 AM

Reputation and honor will be public knowledge for the larger more established clans. An example would be everquest where on our server the loot/raiding clans and the full roleplaying clans were well known. I assume it will be the same case in MW:O.

#46 guardian wolf

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:20 AM

View PostAmarus Cameron, on 10 January 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:


I do not normally agree with Wolves but I wholeheartedly agree with what this one is saying.

Although a side note, 'trashborn' is what freeborns call trueborns...we would call him freebirth scum or something of the like

Thank you Amarus, and I yes I was referring to the Freebirth's bad grammar on my part.

View Postflessar, on 10 January 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:



I am an FRR merc, not a clan warrior. I will fight to survive against imposible odds because the person paying me say's to, and because the salvage on the other end of victory makes the next fight that much more survivable. I dont have the luxury of choosing when/where/how/why to fight. I am given the orders outlined in my contract and fufil it to the best of my units ability to do so.

If I have the luxury of being able to simply fight 1vs1 then I will, but more then likely I will be alpha'd by your entire star the second they see me. And yet you will all pat your selves on the back and talk about how much honor you just gained. I fight for survival and the honor of my word when I sign that next contract, if my future employer's cant trust me to uphold my end they wont hire me. You fight for the lulz and back slaps of *superior race*.

How many times have you read in the books or any where that is cannon, that the clanner didnt close to medium range of close in after letting off a few volleys of long range? Yet all I have seen is constant LRM/ERLL/ERPPC spam fests that refuse to allow a fight to occur and replace it with a massacre. If you want to shout foul on us for violating Zel, why dont you follow the ______ thing first before _______ about us being dishonorable.

And regardless of what you say, the clan's commited the ultimate act of cowardace when Kerensky fled the inner sphere rather then stop the comming succesion wars. He had the power to do so, instead he left and seald the fate of ten's of millions of lives, and started the grand cycle of eugenic's and selective breeding that only histories worst are remembered for. Kerensky chose to back down from the challenge that he had the equipment and personnel to face, and chose the easy path of retreat, though he claims he was taking tools of destruction far from the hands of those that would use them for destruction. Was he refering to his own then? For they were only his to use, nearly none of his soldiers would have abbanoned him then. He just killed the man who tore the Star League apart, he was a walking legend.

So those SLDF members that stay'ed behind were the real hero's, with the courage to continue to face life's challenges, rather then seek an excuse to flee. Many of them went on to lead Mercenary groups that live on to this day and continue to uphold the true Star League's ideals. Not the twisted barbarism that you spout.

(OOC: Btw, the character I play as will have several family members killed/imprisoned by the clan's in the periphery during your initial wave into the innersphere. So he really doesnt like yall. And it doesnt help that the part about the combat observence is what I actually see when playing MW2/3/4 through the years. / Note: This doesnt include the recent Megamek matches where the Clan opposition from WiE has actually played well and closed to within 1hex several times. Lucky HD shots and unlucky Aero-space crashes have insured IS victories thus far, but that likely wont happen much longer)

You never have fought against me, nor any of my old friends then, we would give a fair chance at Zell, but you break the rules then Zell is void, and brawl ensues. I am sorry for your misconceptions about the clans as a whole, as we wardens never sought to invade, we actually did all in our power to prevent it. Remember our Fallen Brethren of the Great Refusal War. And remember who sent you the Wolf's Dragoons, who at first didn't try and help, but in the end our mission was to prepare you for the invasions.

#47 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:30 AM

View Postguardian wolf, on 11 January 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

You never have fought against me, nor any of my old friends then, we would give a fair chance at Zell, but you break the rules then Zell is void, and brawl ensues. I am sorry for your misconceptions about the clans as a whole, as we wardens never sought to invade, we actually did all in our power to prevent it. Remember our Fallen Brethren of the Great Refusal War. And remember who sent you the Wolf's Dragoons, who at first didn't try and help, but in the end our mission was to prepare you for the invasions.


My Trothkin speaks the truth.

#48 CoffiNail

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:53 AM

Wolf was given a position in the Invasion due to being the holders of the Great Father. They also made sure to capture as many planets as possible to give the population less of a burden they knew the other Clans would. This also in turn I am sure was a sort of F-you to the Crusader Clans, as the Wardens who did not want to do it in the first place had the larger territory and the least population conflict.

#49 guardian wolf

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:21 PM

Thank You Phelan, will be taking a moment of silence for our fallen brothers, though I will perform the last wish of my lancemates now, Pardon me for my Mando'a but it was a part of his request, *clears his throat* Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la, ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum, mando'ad draar digur, re'turcye mhi, ner vod.

Edited by guardian wolf, 11 January 2012 - 01:29 PM.


#50 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:36 PM

View Postguardian wolf, on 11 January 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

Thank You Phelan, will be taking a moment of silence for our fallen brothers, though I will perform the last wish of my lancemates now, Pardon me for my Mando'a but it was a part of his request, *clears his throat* Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la, ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum, mando'ad draar digur, re'turcye mhi, ner vod.


Not gone, merely marching far away, I'm still alive, but you are dead. I remember you, so you are eternal. A Mandalorian never forgets, Maybe we'll meet again, my Brother.

#51 guardian wolf

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:47 PM

Phelan, you know Mando'a?

#52 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:51 PM

Yes my friend, I and fluent in Mando'a and also follow the Resol'nare... I am a Mandalorian. Your mourning in Mando'a is and always shall be fine with me...

Edited by Phelan Kerensky, 11 January 2012 - 01:52 PM.


#53 guardian wolf

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:07 PM

Thank you ner vod, it is nice to know I am not alone here. I learned it just after I played RC and started to read the books. Any way back on topic.

#54 Virgil Caine

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 05:05 PM

Something I never understood about the Clans was this. Virtually every clan weapon has a range advantage on the Inner Sphere counterpart. Don't they find it dishonorable that they basically get to shoot first in the vast majority of engagements? Kind of ticks me off. I mean what kind of honor is there in massively overwhelming a technologically inferior opponent. Batchall notwithstanding, it seems pretty silly.

Mad Cat Prime Pilot --- "I challenge you to honorable single combat!" Selects his dual LRM 20s, and dual ER Large Lasers
Shootist Pilot -- "Yeah, right..." Looks at his single ER Large Laser, still outranged by the clan variant.

#55 Thorqemada

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:04 PM

Well, some good explanations here how Clan Honor works and what is meant and why.
But i was irritated that having a good aim should be sort of cheat as i was not aware that there was a MW2 cheat for easy legging.
I am curious how it will work out to fight you clanners when you finally arrive.

#56 Sturmbb

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:13 PM

it wouldnt be clan without honor.

#57 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 12:21 PM

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

@ Tilley
@Thorqemada

Legging is not dishonorable. People complained about it in MW3 but there was no hard rule to prevent it, only in specific units. If anyone remembers the invasion of Somerset (if you saw the 1st Somerset Strikers Battletech Animated Series) the 1st enemy mech taken down by Star Colonel Nicolai Malthus of Clan Jade Falcon was a leg shot <a href="http://www.youtube.c...sjkMeU#t=02m30s" target="_blank">leg shot</a>. He disabled the mech quickly & moved on to his other 2 opponents. Clansmen take pride in being able to aim at & destroy specific parts on an enemy mech.

#1. My job as your enemy is to shoot your mech. A leg is a part of the mech.

#2 Legging an opponent has a tactical advantage to it. I will present 2 examples:

a. Light/Scout mechs are known to be low on the side of firepower but high on the side of speed & tend to normally run circles around heavy/assault mechs (& some mediums as well). Legging such a mech robs it of its only advantage; speed. It is now easy pickings for you or anyone on your team. This piece of logic does not only apply to light mechs which leads me to

b. You are engaged with a mech, you have gained the upper hand & an enemy mech notices you & decides to come to the aid of his/her teammate. If he/she does not have extremely long range weapons he/she will have to come in close or at least to a medium distance to engage you. Destroying one of that mech's legs buys you valuable time to either 1. finish off your current target then ready yourself for the approaching mech or 2. move to a suitable area where you can have both mechs in your FOV to deal with them appropriately or 3. have your teammate deal with the incoming mech while you continue to take apart your current foe.

@VirgilCaine
@Cyber Carns

Having reviewed the two Field Manuals listed I find what you say to be accurate & vaild. However regarding Total Warfare, while accurate it cannot be valid as it relates to TableTop games.

If I choose to hold fire until all my weapons cycle in order to shoot off an "Alpha", what makes that dishonorable?

The rule regarding weapons range refers to the range of ALL weapons on YOUR mech. Also an UAC is a ballistic weapon that works best at mid to close range. I am not going to fire at the max range just to hit you & again the Table Top cannot hold for the video game. Where is the dishonor in using my weapons as effectively as possible in order to achieve peak performance & maximum damage?

Regarding line of sight, that is also a Table Top rule & cannot hold in a video game. Please remember that in the BT Universe battles vary based on conditions & terrain. I am not going to look in each novel to quote an example for you because this post is big enough already, suffice it to say moving out of line of sight is perfectly acceptable. The easiest example to give is moving behind cover to let enemy fire cause you no damage.

Also regarding mechs that are shut down: in the first book of the Jade Phoenix Trilogy (Way of the Clans), Joanna instructs Aidan, as well as the rest of the cadets, thusly:

Quote

Peri finished the torso drill and Joanna addressed Aidan. "Cadet Aidan. Check your heat scale. Does it
show up normal? Respond."

On the intercom, cadets always had to wait for Joanna's order to respond before they could press and hold down the blue button next to the 'Mech throttle and actually speak to her. He had expected the communication restrictions to be relaxed once in a 'Mech, and it surprised him to learn that he could still not speak to Joanna or any other officer without permission to respond.

"Heat scale normal," he said and released the button.

"As it should be. I tell you to check only to make sure you realize the most important cockpit rule.
Never—not in the heat of battle or the excitement of fixing an enemy 'Mech in your sights, lining it up, and using your most skillful assault plan, your best array of weaponry in the fancy blasts and pulses that have become your battlefield specialty—never, never forget that you must be continually conscious of the ribbons of information revealed on the heat-scale gauge. A 'Mech is like a living being; it is like the horse of the cavalry, the camel of the desert warrior. You must continually care for it, not push it too much, not allow it to become overheated. Just as those animals speeded up the time, and in many ways, expanded the territory over which wars could be conducted, so the BattleMech—and especially the OmniMech—has quickened and enhanced the possibilities of ground warfare. But even with the improved heat-sink
technology of the OmniMechs our scientists have provided us, we can still disable our own 'Mech, making it a sitting duck for others, or even get it blown up and ourselves with it, because we get so caught up in being a hero that we forget the patterns of awareness that a 'Mech pilot must maintain at all times. These patterns include the knowledge of your own 'Mech as well as the situation of the fellow warriors of your Star or Star Cluster. This warning is for all of you. Cadet Peri, you understand this, quiaff? Respond."


If Clan warriors are not allowed to shoot at shut down mechs why is there concern regarding the mech overheating? It cannot be that they have to worry about other Clans not following Zellbrigen because the Trial would be declared null & void & the offending Clan would be tainted as dezgra (remember Honor Levels came into effect for encounters with IS forces) & it could not be worrying about IS pilots because in the novel at the time Aidan is training, the invasion had not begun. I can only draw two conclusions from this:

1. Each pilot is responsible for managing his/her own heat. If you cannot properly pilot your mech, shoot your weapons & control your heat, that is YOUR problem.

2. The rule about shooting mechs that are shut down had to relate to mechs not currently engaged in combat & were waiting for an oppurtunity to engage. What adds to my argument is the penalty invoked in a Trial of Position where a cadet is given three targets & is to engage them one at a time. If the cadet shoots a mech that is not engaged in combat, the Trial turns into a melee.

e.g. If a cadet was fighting his first opponent & shot the third opponent whether accidentally or intentionally, all three of his opponents could engage him at once.


There are loopholes however; the classic example being the second book in the Jade Phoenix Trilogy (Bloodname). To describe it as briefly as possible, Clan Jade Falcon bid certain elements in their battle with Clan Wolf. A DropShip carrying mechs, supplies & ammunition was deployed to a certain area. Clan Wolf fighters disabled the DropShip damaging almost all the equipment stroed within. (if I remember the details correctly) The Wolves scored a crippling blow at the beginning of the campaign.

@Kay Wolf
I do agree that not only Clan warriors can be considered honorable but please tell me what is left to be desired regarding Clan honor.

@Geist Null
Honor always has a place; the question is where do YOU put it? Is it on the back burner or is it foremost on your mind? Your post states where you are.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 15 January 2012 - 12:58 PM.


#58 Choronzon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 02:32 AM

Regarding the question of how honor will be carried onto the battlefield:

Rather than just having individual players fighting under the banner of a Clan or Faction, I would like to see individual units underneath each banner. Perhaps a Mechwarrior would have to earn the right to fight under a more prestigious unit and would need to demonstrate his or her ability to stay true to that units guidelines.

There will always be those of us who want to follow the lore as closely as possible and there will always be those who completely disregard it and just want to blow stuff up. And there is nothing wrong with that. However, I do think that there will be ways to;

A - keep the two groups separate

and

B - allow each group to enjoy the game in their own individual manner.

When the time comes, I would like to fight for the Clans. However, I would like to earn that right. Once I have earned it, I intend to fight only alongside those who share the same system of beliefs as I. I acknowledge that there will be those under the same banner with different ideals to me, I simply will choose not to accompany them into battle. Hopefully I can earn a position fighting in an honourable unit so that I can strive to further the ideals of my company and my Clan.

See you on the battlefield.

Edited by Choronzon, 17 January 2012 - 02:32 AM.


#59 Amarus Cameron

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:36 AM

View PostRavn, on 10 January 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

LOL, says the Smoke Jaguar. Experts in moral relativism.

Edit: Awww, he got deleted.


You do realize that Battletech is essentially a grand experiment in moral relativism?

#60 Bren

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 02:22 PM

View PostVirgil Caine, on 10 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Question. How do you "code" for "Playing Dirty". How does the computer server know which clanner is playing dirty and which is not? Further, any system created, will be abused. I guarantee that as well. Computers have no ingenuity. Humans with Ingenuity WILL break the system.

A few years ago, I would have been on board with you. But after playing Teamfortress 2 and seeing some of the requirements for achievements there, Clan Honour being coded into a game certainly isn't outside the realm of possibility. I'm not sure how familiar with the game you are (so these might not make any sense), but here are a few examples:

a) Heavy Achievement Soviet Block - While invulnerable and on defense, block an invulnerable enemy Heavy's movement.
b) Engie Achievement Frontier Justice - Have your sentry kill the enemy that just killed you within 10 seconds.
c) Spy Achievement Joint Operation - Sap an enemy Sentry Gun within 3 seconds of a teammate sapping another.
d) Medic Achievement Trauma Queen - Deploy 3 Ubercharges in less than 5 minutes, and assist in 5 kills during that time.

The complexity of achieving some of these Teamfortress milestones is definately on par with most, if not all Clan rules of engagement. I think it's doable.

View PostVirgil Caine, on 10 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

You balance a game by limiting tools, not by limiting behavior.


What Bryan Ekman (Owner/Creative Director of Piranha Games Inc) had to say:

One of the cool things about the Clans is, if you actually play-or RP-the Clans correctly, it actually creates a lot of artificial limits and a natural order of balance in the universe. That's one thing that we're looking at examining as part of MWO is in bringing in some of those restrictions that the Clans have as a part of their honour system to help balance out combat, and the fact that they have far superior weaponry than the Inner Sphere does.

One of the things is, since MechWarrior Online is all about 'carrots' (rewarding players for activities that they do well) if a player is a Clanner and he goes up against an Inner Sphere target, if through an in-game action says "I'm gunna challenge you, I'm gunna fight you one on one" and actually achieves that, we can reward him appropriately. Whereas, if he just picks random targets, destroys a bunch of people and maybe gangs up on people, he doesn't get rewarded as much.

Let's get the players to play optimally, the way we want them to play, and encourage behavior that we want them to do, and give them rewards for doing it that way, rather than just letting them do whatever, and rewarding them for that as well.





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