155 replies to this topic

[Seth]

I saw this image in the update today, and the thing that stuck out the most to me was the tier 7 line that said you could decrease the convergence time. That implies there is a convergence time to begin with and is a first for a MechWarrior game. A lot of people on here have debated one way or another in favor or against instant weapon convergence. Personally, I'm relieved to see this and I'm interestedto see how this is implemented.

[Rayge]

I've never heard the term convergence. After a bit of research, convergence is when you basically aim from two points so that the rounds will cross in the middle, right? On WW2 era planes that had the weapons in both wings, the weapons would be set so that the rounds cross at 300-400 meters ('fixed convergence').

Since there is a convergence speed, I'm assuming that in the game, the arm weapons will take time to adjust automatically depending on the range to target. That means that if you fire too fast after moving the reticule onto a target, the rounds won't actually hit the center point, they'll instead flank the target. If that makes any sense.

Good catch, Seth

[Clark]

Keep in mind this isn't even a prototype. They are using it as an example.

It does raise a question though.


In World War II fighter pilots would have their guns set to a convergence point. Say at 300 meters or so and up a few degrees to help lead the target. At that point, the bullets would meet at that point in space to increase their damage potential.

Could we manually set the convergence default, so that the skill helps the speed that the Battlemech changes the convergence point to meet the target? For instance I could set my weapons to 180 meters and if a mech gets to within 100, it takes a second or two for the guns to adjust to the target position, but if I line up the shot at near 200 meters I don't have to wait.

Edit: Woops, posted at about the same time.
I really hope the above skill chart is what they are going to do though. It's an elegant solution to the targeting problem that people have been arguing about on here since day one.

Edited by Clark, 03 February 2012 - 02:33 PM.

[LakeDaemon]

"Convergence" could mean where your fire cross paths preferrably on the target or it could be the time it takes for your weapons (arms and torso) to rotate and align on a new target before and your hud showing the weapons have converged in the reticule.

Yeah looks like a mech system upgrade to whatever the standard time it takes for your weapons to converge on your reticule when you move, rotate your torso and arms to a new target so 2.5% per level would be 25% faster at elite level 10. Thats awesome. The whole skill tree aspect of MWO is a great leap forward for MechWarrior.

Excellent.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 03 February 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Rayge]

Clark, on 03 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Could we manually set the convergence default, so that the skill helps the speed that the Battlemech changes the convergence point to meet the target? For instance I could set my weapons to 180 meters and if a mech gets to within 100, it takes a second or two for the guns to adjust to the target position, but if I line up the shot at near 200 meters I don't have to wait.

Trying to figure this out, Clark. We aren't going to use 'fixed convergence' in mwo as far as I can tell, because that tree gives a bonus to 'convergence speed.' It doesn't take time to adjust your convergence if you have fixed convergence (it's fixed!). Instead I believe that the convergence will be automatically adjusted at a set rate for each mech. This merc XP ability would reduce that time.

Edited by Rayge, 03 February 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Mchawkeye]

This is great news. something that has been talked about on the forums for a while, as a way to deal with alpha strike issues and laser weaponry being over powered in terms of game balance.

I literally cannot wait to see if this holds true and how its implemented in the game....

[GaussDragon]

I want to see how it works in the game before I really make an opinion on it. In principle, I can't say it's something I'm disposed to liking. If convergence times aren't laughably slow, I may be able to appreciate it, who knows. I'll have to wait and see.

[CPTAmerica]

I for one think it's a great way to implement a "hit location" type of aspect from the table top game into the video game. This way if you alpha strike an opponent with your crosshairs over his head, it doesn't necessarily mean you just pounded the living snot of him. You might still hit the shoulders, arms, etc. Now, I'm not saying that I would go for a full body "hit location" chart for non converged weapons but, definitely like where this seems to be going.

[Wraith-1]

This is a very interesting reveal, I wonder if the convergence will adjust automatically, forcing you to take more time to line up a shot properly, or if it will be controlled by the player...

[SilentObserver]

Wraith-1, on 03 February 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

This is a very interesting reveal, I wonder if the convergence will adjust automatically, forcing you to take more time to line up a shot properly, or if it will be controlled by the player...

I'm sure its automated. I don't have enough switches on my joystick to add "adjust convergence range" keys

[Solis Obscuri]

I was pleased to see this as well (along with DFA!)

I'm curious about the "Targeting Info Decay Time", though. Relating to info shared from Command/Scout units, maybe? It sounds like getting a target solution isn't going to be instant process in this game, which should be a nice tactical change from so many of the previous MW titles.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 03 February 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Yah, at this point it just means that the guns won't always fire where you have your reticle. This could be aim point lag similar to WoT or it could reference cone of fire type systems. At the very least they are going to have some system in there that prevents pinpoint accurate snap shots. At least they are addressing it in some manner. That's hopeful.

[Seth]

Solis Obscuri, on 03 February 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

I'm curious about the "Targeting Info Decay Time", though. Relating to info shared from Command/Scout units, maybe? It sounds like getting a target solution isn't going to be instant process in this game, which should be a nice tactical change from so many of the previous MW titles.

That concerns how long information you had on a mech that is in your LOS remains on your HUD after that mech goes behind cover and you loose that LOS.

The convergence could potentially affect arm mounted arm mounted weapons as well as torso mounted ones since I believe the torso mounted ones are mounted on gimbals and able to slew around a little bit.

[Johann Devalis]

I'm betting that is alot like the WOT "aim time" setup. While aiming in WOT there is a circle that shows where your round will go. It'll go anywhere within that circle. Going full speed over rough ground while traversing your turret makes the circle larger, but when you stop and hold your aim still the circle size goes down significantly.

I am all for this, as it is more accurate to the battletech "lore' and will prevent terrrible pop-tart-alpha-strike-legging tactics.

[Alaskan Viking]

About WWII fighters and convergence.

This happened because the machine guns were in the wings, ~ 10 feet apart, so they were angled slightly to have a tight grouping at X distance. But the P-38, had twin engines and it's weapons in the nose, instead of the wings, and thus had NO convergence range, it was a tight group at all practical ranges, so my question is; will torso weapons have zero convergence time?

this is what a am talking about:



See, no convergence issue.

Edited by Alaskan Viking, 03 February 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Alaskan Viking, on 03 February 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

About WWII fighters and convergence.

This happened because the machine guns were in the wings, ~ 10 feet apart, so they were angled slightly to have a tight grouping at X distance. But the P-38, had twin engines and it's weapons in the nose, instead of the wings, and thus had NO convergence range, it was a tight group at all practical ranges, so my question is; will torso weapons have zero convergence time?

this is what a am talking about:



See, no convergence issue.

I'd expect they'd still have to sight in on the target according to its range and elevation. After all, even torso mounted weapons aren't all going to be straight down the centerline of the cockpit POV...

[Clark]

Rayge, on 03 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Trying to figure this out, Clark. We aren't going to use 'fixed convergence' in mwo as far as I can tell, because that tree gives a bonus to 'convergence speed.' It doesn't take time to adjust your convergence if you have fixed convergence (it's fixed!). Instead I believe that the convergence will be automatically adjusted at a set rate for each mech. This merc XP ability would reduce that time.

Right, I get that. I was just speculating.

There would be a default of some sort. Three main possibilities include: 1. Infinity, 2. Off to the side, 3 some default convergence. And then it would take time for the guns to automatically adjust to where they are needed. For instance, if the default is infinity, (the guns just point straight ahead from the gun and not the sight) then the arms would have to turn inwards to bring them to bear. The skill to adjust convergence speed changes how fast this process would take.

My idea was that if we could set the default, then it adds another layer to the game. If the focal point of the guns is preset to 300 meters, then it takes time for the convergence to move to 100 or 900. So a hunchback could set it's default to 100 meters and a Panther could set it to 270 meters. So if that Panther closes to it's optimal range, it wouldn't need to wait to fire. If, however, a Hunchback pops up only 100 meters away, then it will take time for the computer to bring the PPC on its arm to the convergence for that range.

Does that explanation make any sense? It's just an idea I was toying around with, but I think it would be interesting to implement.


Edit: I just really really really hope this isn't like WoT where there's a circle that converges to your target.

Edited by Clark, 03 February 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[autogyro]

Johann Devalis, on 03 February 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm betting that is alot like the WOT "aim time" setup. While aiming in WOT there is a circle that shows where your round will go. It'll go anywhere within that circle. Going full speed over rough ground while traversing your turret makes the circle larger, but when you stop and hold your aim still the circle size goes down significantly. I am all for this, as it is more accurate to the battletech "lore' and will prevent terrrible pop-tart-alpha-strike-legging tactics.

Sounds like that's what the chart is saying - it'll take some time for the reticule bloom to subside.

[Orzorn]

autogyro, on 03 February 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Sounds like that's what the chart is saying - it'll take some time for the reticule bloom to subside.

Actually, the way I imagine it is that there is the Intended Reticule, and the Actual Reticules. The Intended Reticule is where you are telling you mech you want to fire at, and the Actual Reticules appear for each weapon in the active group. The Actual Reticules will lag behind the Intended Reticule, so you must either wait for the Actual Reticules to line up with the Intended Reticules, or if you fire then the shots will go in the direction of the Actual Reticules.

If you watch the original reboot trailer, you can see something like this happen.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=orhOvbfyyJw#t=1m56s
(if that link doesn't skip time, go to 1 minute, 56 seconds)

That part illustrates part of what I mean, although the weapon convergence would probably happen a lot more in the game than it does in that video.

[Phades]

Orzorn, on 03 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Actually, the way I imagine it is that there is the Intended Reticule, and the Actual Reticules. The Intended Reticule is where you are telling you mech you want to fire at, and the Actual Reticules appear for each weapon in the active group. The Actual Reticules will lag behind the Intended Reticule, so you must either wait for the Actual Reticules to line up with the Intended Reticules, or if you fire then the shots will go in the direction of the Actual Reticules.

If you watch the original reboot trailer, you can see something like this happen.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=orhOvbfyyJw#t=1m56s
(if that link doesn't skip time, go to 1 minute, 56 seconds)

That part illustrates part of what I mean, although the weapon convergence would probably happen a lot more in the game than it does in that video.

Assuming this is the implementation, it has (somewhat) less to do with the fact that you are pointing more than one gun at something and more to do with the turret speed of each independant weapon system set as active.

Good, bad, or ugly, depends on the implementation and how much of it takes the skill out of the player's hand to line up a shot compared to say missile lock or leading dumb fire missiles. If they do it poorly, on the turreting aspect, then there will be a definate missile bias. If they do it really ugly, then it will bias the game further simply to chain firing single shot big guns for the best possible effect.