111 replies to this topic

[XGhostbearX]

I love the PPC. But I find myself using it so much I'm starting to wonder if it's properly balanced. The range is great and most of the time I have at least 2, and by the time the enemy gets to me I've probably been able to get off at least 3-4 alpha strikes. Now my heat is pegged most of the time, and on the occasions when I play assults and I can get 4 er PPC's I have no problem putting someone in the cross hairs giving them a face-full, and watching my mech shut down...I mean who cares cause the enemy's dead....great range, damage, crit space, ton...

Just looking for some thoughts and alternatives

[fallonsky]

not really. i know that i have taken down people useing that stratagy useing heavy gauss and LRM and SRM's or auto canons. they cant get anough damage done and when they shut down i have a clear shot at anything i want.

[Razed]

In a single player game the argument could be made that the PPC is too powerful but in a team game like MWO I'd say it isn't. Sure you can alpha strike the bejeezus out of someone, maybe take them out quick, and shut down from the heat. Congratulations now that guy's 11 team mates are blowing chunks off your immobilized 'Mech. Even if you don't get forced to shut down you're not going to be firing for a little while during which time the enemy will be blasting you.

[Jack Gallows]

That's still a lot of heat rolled into one weapon, where another 'mech might use more then one weapon to achieve the same goal for less heat or around the same, giving them a higher to hit in a single salvo depending. You're also gambling on them hitting all the time, and a PPC that doesn't hit hurts you in terms of heat generation. You can't tell me you have perfect targeting, and with MW:O it's going to be harder due to torso movement times and weapon convergence. Add in the fact that with a slight sacrifice in range, you can put in two ER medium lasers for WAY less tons and less heat for slightly more damage output tops, and a higher average damage too. Last is an example, other weapons are good examples too.

The PPC is a good weapon, but it's not perfect. Also, if you can't use it's range to an advantage, and if you overheat and kill someone you've got 11 other mechs to worry about....and possibly an artillery round coming your way. It's got a great punch for what it's supposed to be...but it certainly isn't "too good."

[Razed]

I really like the PPC because I tend to be a pretty good shot and the PPC rewards good shots. That being said, Jack Gallows is spot on. The PPC is a high risk/reward weapon and if you miss, especially if you're group firing multiple PPCs, you may very well never get that second shot off. Even if you do manage to ride the heat curve you can still get chewed up by people with faster firing weapons.

[Jack Gallows]

Razed, on 13 February 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

I really like the PPC because I tend to be a pretty good shot and the PPC rewards good shots. That being said, Jack Gallows is spot on. The PPC is a high risk/reward weapon and if you miss, especially if you're group firing multiple PPCs, you may very well never get that second shot off. Even if you do manage to ride the heat curve you can still get chewed up by people with faster firing weapons.

And that's pretty much the idea, smart use of the PPC makes it good, like any other weapon. Combine it with other weapons and you've got a solid mainstay, just like Gauss Rifles and AC/20s.

Another idea that comes to mind is ballistic force. Getting hit with that much energy should rock a Battlemech, but in my eyes that huge Gauss Slug or AC round is going to be more effective at making your gyro crap the bed. Will be interesting to see how much this will effect targeting.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 13 February 2012 - 07:19 AM.

[Razed]

I always like the idea that instead of being rocked so much a PPC hit would make your instrumentation freak out for a second or two.

[Spooky]

XGhostbearX, on 13 February 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

I love the PPC. But I find myself using it so much I'm starting to wonder if it's properly balanced. The range is great and most of the time I have at least 2, and by the time the enemy gets to me I've probably been able to get off at least 3-4 alpha strikes. Now my heat is pegged most of the time, and on the occasions when I play assults and I can get 4 er PPC's I have no problem putting someone in the cross hairs giving them a face-full, and watching my mech shut down...I mean who cares cause the enemy's dead....great range, damage, crit space, ton...

Just looking for some thoughts and alternatives

First of all, it's pretty pointless to talk about the effectiveness of a weapon in MWO, when you aren't even able to play the game yet (this is the MechWarrior® Online™ subforum after all). Secondly, what are you talking about anyway? Your post seems to indicate that there is a reference to an actual game here. CBT? MW2, 3 or 4? MC1 or 2?

Edited by Spooky, 13 February 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Spooky, on 13 February 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

First of all, it's pretty pointless to talk about the effectiveness of a weapon in MWO, when you aren't even able to play the game yet (this is the MechWarrior® Online™ subforum after all). Secondly, what are you talking about anyway? Your post seems to indicate that there is a reference to an actual game here. CBT? MW2, 3 or 4? MC1 or 2?

It's probably MechWarrior 4 he's talking about, grumpy pants.

I would know, I do it too, on the campaign; with enough double heat sinks you don't even have problems with shutting down and overheating unless you get careless, and even then you're probably engaging your enemy from one kilometer or so of range, so it doesn't matter because most of the time they can't even fight back.

It's not so much that the PPC is too good as other weapons possess comparable ranges and firepower with less of a heat issue, it's more like the weapon is too easy to use.
There is no recoil, the projectile travels very quickly with excellent range and accuracy, and will mess up with your target's weapon accuracy on a successful hit, preventing them from striking back.

For one thing, MechWarrior 4 doesn't take the minimum firing range of the PPC into account, making it sort of unnecessary to mount close range weapons when your primary weapons are PPCs.
Although according to the lore it is possible to disengage the safety mechanisms which restrict the minimum range of the PPC, doing so would expose the 'Mech to damage from the very weapon it mounts; again, this is completely ignored in MechWarrior 4.

At least on MechWarrior 3 you'd fry your computers if you tried to fire a couple of them all at once, not to mention they were less accurate than the ones seen in MechWarrior 4, even with the moving reticle in MechWarrior 3.
Anyway.

XGhostbearX, on 13 February 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

Just looking for some thoughts and alternatives

The PPC boating strategy would be less viable in MechWarrior Online, at least according to the developers, as, unlike the previous games, modern computer technology allows for the rendering of complex maps with lots of objects which can be used for cover from PPCs, for example, which they intend to use as an incentive for players to mount more diverse weapons in their 'Mechs.

The PPC would still be a good weapon, but you would want to mount something else for more enclosed terrain and shorter ranges, if PGI just manages to pull off what they're proposing to do.

[Spooky]

Lorcan Lladd, on 13 February 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

It's probably MechWarrior 4 he's talking about.

He should clarify that, otherwise this is all pointless. Well, even then, why are we discussing MW4 weapon balance here?

Lorcan Lladd, on 13 February 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

For one thing, MechWarrior 4 doesn't take the minimum firing range of the PPC into account, making it sort of unnecessary to mount close range weapons when your primary weapons are PPCs.

In any Mech game, the point would be to have higher DPS weapons (which most close range weapons are). Also in MWLL at least, there is at least self inflicting damage, when the PPC hits a target at point blank range.

Edited by Spooky, 13 February 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Spooky, on 13 February 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

In any Mech game, the point would be to have higher DPS weapons (which most close range weapons are). Also in MWLL at least, there is at least self inflicting damage, when the PPC hits a target at point blank range.

There; it's pretty viable to implement, then, and I can't see the developers not doing it, being in accord to canon and pretty good for balance as well.
Not sure I follow you on DPS, though; what are you suggesting?

To increase rate of fire for all weapons or just try to make short-range weapons more effective?
Because you could always group a chain of Machine Guns and Pulse Lasers - so I assume you'd like them to be powerful and useful individually rather than only when fired in groups...?

[Spooky]

Lorcan Lladd, on 13 February 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

There; it's pretty viable to implement, then, and I can't see the developers not doing it, being in accord to canon and pretty good for balance as well.
Not sure I follow you on DPS, though; what are you suggesting?

Yes, it would definitely make sense to have these kinds of effects in MWO as well. It's very simple in MWLL really, the PPC hast a certain blast radius and everything in it gets damaged a certain amount, no matter if its your own Mech, an allied Mech or an enemy Mech (though in MWLL there is reduced friendly fire damage. On that note, has friendly fire been discussed yet for MWO?).

Lorcan Lladd, on 13 February 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Not sure I follow you on DPS, though; what are you suggesting?

To increase rate of fire for all weapons or just try to make short-range weapons more effective?
Because you could always group a chain of Machine Guns and Pulse Lasers - so I assume you'd like them to be powerful and useful individually rather than only when fired in groups...?

What? No, I was just pointing out, that the point of equipping a Mech with short range weapons alongside PPCs, even though PPCs might not have a minimum range, is to have more DPS for the same amount of tons, heat, or weapons space, depending on what you want to look at, at close range.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Spooky, on 13 February 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Yes, it would definitely make sense to have these kinds of effects in MWO as well. It's very simple in MWLL really, the PPC hast a certain blast radius and everything in it gets damaged a certain amount, no matter if its your own Mech, an allied Mech or an enemy Mech (though in MWLL there is reduced friendly fire damage. On that note, has friendly fire been discussed yet for MWO?).

There were some polls created by community members to determine how popular friendly fire would be, if implemented; the results were rather positive.
http://mwomercs.com/...ld-you-like-it/

Other than that, I don't seem to remember the developers making any definitive statements about it; they may have mentioned it in the narrative of a play test or not, I don't really remember, and it may have been a fictional tale at that, but...
...In general, it seems likely that at least some toned-down friendly fire would get implemented.

It's just another issue that hasn't really been answered, perhaps because it's taken for granted, I don't know, but it's more likely to be announced on 'Mech Warfare month, anyway.

Spooky, on 13 February 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

What? No, I was just pointing out, that the point of equipping a Mech with short range weapons alongside PPCs, even though PPCs might not have a minimum range, is to have more DPS for the same amount of tons, heat, or weapons space, depending on what you want to look at, at close range.

Ah, okay, then.
Excuse me for my confusion, I am occasionally a little derpy - this kind of loadout has always been effective as far as raw firepower is concerned, it's just that the open ranges in the maps of older MechWarrior games made them pretty weak, tactically.
Well, unless it was a set of ER Large Pulse Lasers or X Large Pulse, but those were even more heat-intensive than the PPCs.

Still, that technology won't be available at launch, and also taking the developer statements into account, it seems as though there is a lot of potential for smaller, short-range weapons to make a comeback of sorts.
Good thing, too.

Edit for going dangerously off-topic.
Well, so, no, I don't see that the PPC will be in any way overpowered in this game, though it should remain a great weapon in the situations it is best suited for.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 13 February 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[Cyote13]

Spooky, if the devs deliver on what they seem to want, it is not going to simply be a DPS fight, range is going to have a big part to play, and generaly heat is going to be a balancer as well as weight and hopefully crit space. Yes there will be a lot of trying to figure out the min/max and all, but hopefully it will be complex enough that different play styles will be viable.

[Kael Tropheus]

Damage aside, its still a slow firing one shot weapon. A fast mech will be able to get in under minimum range and pummel your rear. It will have a harder time tracking fast moving targets, especially if they know how to move. I think damage combined with heat, minimum range and slow recharge time are good compensators. They will be next to useless in city fights as will almost any minimum range type weapon. Plus the IS version at least doesnt have the damage to one shot an opponent.

[XGhostbearX]

sorry. Yes this was more towards MW4...however, I brought it up because since getting on here I decided to go back and play mech cmdr 2. I can load out bushwackers with 3 PPC's and zeus's with 4 ER PPC's (all with mostly full armor). why should I load anything else when that is clearly the best weapon....though yes the minimum distance didn't matter in 4 and not so much in cmdr. And yes I think the best anwser is it's easy. However, the biggest thing for me is ammo for multiplayer this may not matter, you only need enough ammo to last through 11 enemies at most, but in a mission where the size of the opponet is an unknown quantity, that counts for a lot. Now in MW4 when I was playing in the Arena, my loadout was way different (leaning towards AC's and SRM's) but only because I knew the number of mechs and the ranges weren't long. Also many structures were in the way.

Now don't get me wrong, ER LL and gaus's are fine and I really have nothing against them. I find missles to be a bit pointless with AMS (though given a few cat's you can get gang raped by LRM20's) Love the LBX10...under 300M...never really found a use for the flamer or MC gun...

As far as multiplayer goes...so I just killed one of their guys and now I'm shut down and they kill me......ok...knight takes queen. If I'm able to put a big hurting on the opponets team at the outset of the game, I'd take it. I'd be able to get 2 vollys of fire in before they get within 600M.

I hope the game/gamers take this into account...if you get caught out in the open someone's gonna light you up.

Not trying to start a riot with this, just wanted to point out that I always found this to be an easy tactic and I hope it gets fixed in the game (through skill tree or terrain or self injury).

**I like the idea that a gaus will turn you where as a PPC shot may not hit as hard.

[XGhostbearX]

Another thing I'm curious about is the structures on the map. From the trailer it showed that buildings can be destroyed. Well if I know going in that I may get jacked up in a given area, whats to stop me from unloading on the city? I mean screw urban warfare if some hunchback is gonna jack in the box me, I'll just level the dam place so I can see them comming. Now I understand that I can't level the whole city, but still if I can some how funnel them...and who knows maybe this will become a legit tactic....small mech running fast gets building on top of it, or just debris to trip on...

Edited by XGhostbearX, 13 February 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[XGhostbearX]

Kael Tropheus, on 13 February 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Damage aside, its still a slow firing one shot weapon. A fast mech will be able to get in under minimum range and pummel your rear. It will have a harder time tracking fast moving targets, especially if they know how to move. I think damage combined with heat, minimum range and slow recharge time are good compensators. They will be next to useless in city fights as will almost any minimum range type weapon. Plus the IS version at least doesnt have the damage to one shot an opponent.

You can make the recharge argument for any one shot weapon. having a minimum range is good.

[Spooky]

Cyote13, on 13 February 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Spooky, if the devs deliver on what they seem to want, it is not going to simply be a DPS fight, range is going to have a big part to play, and generaly heat is going to be a balancer as well as weight and hopefully crit space. Yes there will be a lot of trying to figure out the min/max and all, but hopefully it will be complex enough that different play styles will be viable.

I am not saying that it will be only a 'DPS fight' like in MMORPGs or anything like that. The abbreviation DPS sometimes seems to have such a negative connotation for some people . What I was saying was merely, that weapons like (ER)LBLs, (ER)PPCs etc. have a long range and high burst damage, but they generally do less damage over time ('DPS') than weapons with shorter range (when talking about the energy weapons in BattleTech).

[Geaux Tiger]

PPCs have definite trade offs when it comes to heat and minimum range. This balances them fine when cover and terrain is taken into consideration. MWLL has alot of maps that are open, long ranges. But, little dips in the terrain or a boulder here and there on those maps make all the difference in negating long range weapons if you use them while moving.

Seems the developers are taking things like this into account fairly well. A huge alpha at range doesn't work too well against an opponent who knows how to use the terrain to thier advantage.

Now, if you are going into a known close range enviroment, like a city, and bring nothing but long range weapons....well you deserve what happends to ya