111 replies to this topic

[Thom Frankfurt]

Razed, on 14 February 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

I'm not sure how the TT rules work for targeting specific body parts but scoring a headshot on a moving target is hard.

Random rolls for the most part. Not too sure how the current rule for targeting a specific section is, would look it up, but I'm lazy.

[Longsword]

PPCs are a great weapon (Especially if you throw one onto a wolfhound.... alot of people dont expect a light mech to shoot a full sized ppc at you)
But Autocannons, Gauss rifles and srms can be just as hard hitting. As can Assault Lasers and Heavy Lasers.

[Razed]

I think, as I've said before, that the real advantage for PPCs will only be realized if you're a good shot. If you can consistantly put PPC shots on top of each other you can wreak havoc on the enemy. If accuracy for you means hitting the same 'Mech most of the time then you're probably better off with ACs or Lasers.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Razed, on 14 February 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

I'm not sure how the TT rules work for targeting specific body parts but scoring a headshot on a moving target is hard.

You need a targeting computer to even attempt it. So its pretty much out until the clans show up.

[Jacob Davion]

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 February 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

You need a targeting computer to even attempt it. So its pretty much out until the clans show up.

Yes, unfortunately. In this case, it is inevitable that some mechwarriors in the story that are going to die will have to face the harshness of the Warhawk. However, if I could possibly salvage one for myself......

[Solis Obscuri]

PPCs are a good weapon, and they should be. They aren't fundamentally unbalanced. A few points:

• Nothing needs to be nerfed yet, nothing has been released yet.
  
• PPCs/ER PPCs are the most heat intensive weapon in MW as of the Succession Wars/Clan Invasion time frame.
  
• PPCs have a terribly slow cycle time
  
• PPCS have a minimum range restriction (ER PPCs don't, but they generate ludicrious amounts of heat)
  
• Prior to the reintroduction of LostTech/ClanTech and Double-strength Heat Sinks, the only I.S. 'mech that can sustain a serious PPC-boat bombardment is the AWS-8Q Awesome, and it sacrifices 10km/h of speed and almost all close support weapons (save a Small Laser) in order to mount the 28 single heat sinks required to do so.
  
• Double-strength Heat Sinks break the balance of energy weapons vs. ballistic weapons per tonnage more than any other technology (especially when the 10 single engine-mounted heat sinks turn into 10 double heat sinks without any penalty to critical slots!)
  
• Weapons convergence means that banks of energy weapons will have a much harder time pinpoint-targetting 'mechs with an alpha-strike in MWO than in previous MW titles.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 15 February 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[Pht]

XGhostbearX, on 13 February 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

I love the PPC. But I find myself using it so much I'm starting to wonder if it's properly balanced. The range is great and most of the time I have at least 2, and by the time the enemy gets to me I've probably been able to get off at least 3-4 alpha strikes. Now my heat is pegged most of the time, and on the occasions when I play assults and I can get 4 er PPC's I have no problem putting someone in the cross hairs giving them a face-full, and watching my mech shut down...I mean who cares cause the enemy's dead....great range, damage, crit space, ton...

Just looking for some thoughts and alternatives

I presume you're discussing the ppc in some implementation of the previous MW video games?

As far as I can remember, none of the previous MW games fully implemented *the* balancing factor of ppc class weapons: heat.



Also, PPC class weapons can explode, doing nasty things to the insides of a 'Mech.

[lsp]

DoT and DPS are not the same thing for the guy who posted earlier in this thread. DoT=Dmg over time DPS= dmg per second.

[Destin Foroda]

As I understand it this game won't be using customizable mechs like we've seen in the video games. This is gonna roll old school MW1 style. The hunchback you just upgraded to has an AC20, two medium lasers and a small laser, and you aren't randomly stripping those parts out and putting in whatever weapons you have on hand.

So with this in mind, the idea of coming to a battle with more than 2 PPCs on your mech is kinda out, and it'll have to be a mech that starts with them. The PPC is damn fine weapon when you're opening up on enemies at a range. It's gonna be more accurate than LRMs and AC2s or AC5s, it's gonna hit like a truck and people are going to recognise it as the threat it is because not everyone is gonna be running around with them. That said, the weapon is probably going to have accuracy issues when you get in closer, fires slowly and spikes heat. Alpha striking in close quarters with PPC boats is a recipie for disaster if your enemy is sporting weaponry that can fire more often and control his heat better.

The PPC is a good weapon for what it's designed to be good for. It's a terrifying beam of man made lightning wielded by the heaviest and most potent of battlemechs, but it has it's design limitations just like anything else.

[Fluffinator]

Destin Foroda, on 16 February 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

As I understand it this game won't be using customizable mechs like we've seen in the video games. This is gonna roll old school MW1 style. The hunchback you just upgraded to has an AC20, two medium lasers and a small laser, and you aren't randomly stripping those parts out and putting in whatever weapons you have on hand.

So with this in mind, the idea of coming to a battle with more than 2 PPCs on your mech is kinda out, and it'll have to be a mech that starts with them. The PPC is damn fine weapon when you're opening up on enemies at a range. It's gonna be more accurate than LRMs and AC2s or AC5s, it's gonna hit like a truck and people are going to recognise it as the threat it is because not everyone is gonna be running around with them. That said, the weapon is probably going to have accuracy issues when you get in closer, fires slowly and spikes heat. Alpha striking in close quarters with PPC boats is a recipie for disaster if your enemy is sporting weaponry that can fire more often and control his heat better.

The PPC is a good weapon for what it's designed to be good for. It's a terrifying beam of man made lightning wielded by the heaviest and most potent of battlemechs, but it has it's design limitations just like anything else.

If you can't customise and build your mech then they have gotten rid of 50% of what makes the game fun...no way to test your build and ability to make something better=boring

[Prosperity Park]

I think it's possible that we might see weapon swapping in the future... but that's speculating on what the Dev's said in an other post and we all know that wanton speculation eventually turns into a great depression.

[Mason Grimm]

Fluffinator, on 16 February 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

If you can't customise and build your mech then they have gotten rid of 50% of what makes the game fun...no way to test your build and ability to make something better=boring

Sadly, it would also make MechSpecs.com fairly useless BUT I have faith!!!!!!!! I am guessing they have a system up their sleeve that will make most of us sit back and go "Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooah!!! AWESOME"

[ghostbear]

I think the heat and weight balance out the PPC nicely.

[SilentObserver]

ghostbear, on 16 February 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

I think the heat and weight balance out the PPC nicely.

Until you introduce double heat sinks. Then everything is thrown out of wack.

Which is why i wished the game was coming out in 3015 and not 3049.

[Namwons]

id like to remind that they said we will have thermal vission . so if your running hot, your a target. like the after glow of the PPCs of the warhammer in the deshler vid

[TheRulesLawyer]

SilentObserver, on 16 February 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Until you introduce double heat sinks. Then everything is thrown out of wack.

Which is why i wished the game was coming out in 3015 and not 3049.

There are a whole lot less balance issues when you play ghetto tech. DHS are the single worst thing to happen to battletech IMHO.

[MaddMaxx]

We need some of these babies. We can afford to replace them every couple years no worries.

Quote

"
Non-standard subtypes

Besides the normal Star League era double heat sinks used throughout the Inner Sphere and the advanced Clan version, a number of experimental or prototype technologies existed at various times with slightly different capabilities. However, it should be noted that none of these proved viable for mass production or deployment.
[edit] Double-Strength Heat Sinks

Relying on corrosive liquid metal coolants instead of advanced radiators for efficiency, Double-Strength Heat Sinks were developed by the Federated Suns near the end of the Third Succession War at the Friden Aerospace Park research installation on Hoff. Unlike regular double heat sinks, they could be combined with standard heat sinks at leisure and were actually used as refit kits, replacing individual regular heat sinks. In this, they were plainly superior to regular double heat sinks, sharing none of their drawbacks.^[6] (It remains unclear whether or not they could be mounted in the engine.) However, they were too brittle and hard to maintain for more than a few years' worth of function.
When the Draconis Combine invaded Hoff in 3022, some 'Mechs among the defenders were equipped with functional prototypes of this type but they are believed to have been destroyed in the fighting. Neither the Federated Suns nor the Draconis Combine ever used these exact same Double-Strength Heat Sinks again after the battles on Hoff.
[edit] Corrosive Coolant Experimental Double Heat Sinks

In the late 3030s, the nascent Federated Commonwealth deployed another kind of experimental double heat sinks with corrosive liquid metal coolants. Obviously developed from the prototypes deployed on Hoff, they could also be combined with regular heat sinks but could not be mounted in the engine, and were three times as big (although still had the same mass)^[5][7]. Like their predecessors, maintenance problems meant they decayed within only a few years and were unsuitable for widespread deployment, although they did give the Federated Commonwealth a brief advantage in its early days^[3].

[Destin Foroda]

Fluffinator, on 16 February 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

If you can't customise and build your mech then they have gotten rid of 50% of what makes the game fun...no way to test your build and ability to make something better=boring

We'll have to see what happens. Everything I've read from the devs so far makes me believe that customization of the actual battlemechs themselves is going to be very limited. Honestly I have no problem with this. Customization and all of that jazz was good for single player games and random MP matches where mechs were nothing more than skins and everything else was free reign.

But I don't play multiplayer games for customization. I play them to kill ****. I couldn't pimp my mechs in MW1 and the old battletech games, I couldn't pimp my guns and soldier in Counterstrike and Day of Defeat, I can barely pimp my tank in BF3. Yet all are glorious games in their own right and FPS's have huge multiplayer acclaim. Customization isn't necessary to make a game good, but nor does it hurt to have some wiggle room. I doubt the devs will leave the community high and dry on customization, but I get the feeling that a lot of folks aren't gonna like what they see. That's okay by me. If things don't work out that way then that's okay too.

Edited by Destin Foroda, 17 February 2012 - 04:04 AM.

[Longsword]

I agree with Destin- look at the mech skill tree example they posted. It shows various mech "variants" you can unlock by progressing through it.
In battletech, a mech variant is the same mech with a different set of weapons/heat sinks.
This has several advantages:
1# Its closer to the canon- in canon the variants where what existed, mechwarriors rarely did much weapon customising of their own.
2# Its much easier to balance- instead of a million combinations of weapons per mech, its just a few combinations.
3# It will be difficult to make mechs that are plain overpowered with silly weapons loadouts.
4# You get rid of the problems with a player mounting 5 lasers on an arm that only shows a single gun barrel on the mechs model
Also, they are replacing the weapon customisation with something more in line with the role/team focus they are aiming for- the module slots that you put modules in that are unlocked by your pilot role skills. Add that to pilot skills/mech proficiencies giving bonuses to certain things, and you have a fairly good system. Also, it is likely the paint jobs/decals will be more customisable than previous mechwarrior games.

The only mechs that should be able to swap their weapons outside of buying/refitting to a preset variant are omnimechs.

[ice trey]

In the tabletop game, it's just right. Slightly greater reach than the Large Laser for slightly more heat, and has difficulty tracking targets at very short ranges. It ends up being a lighter and safer option for light and medium 'mechs than heavier weapons like the AC 5 or 10, but any more than one and you're investing massive amounts of tonnage on heat sinking if you want to fire more than one at the same time without dangerous heat-gauge creep

In the computer games, that's the question. I've yet to see the computer games properly address issues with the PPC. Mechwarrior 4 was terrible for it because the coolant system pretty much gave you one or two volleys of whatever you wanted without taxing your heat sinks - meaning players would strip out heat sinks to put even more guns on and pop-tart their way to success (And who cared if they ran out of coolant, because by that point they will have scored two or three one-shot kills, a more than acceptable ratio). Mechwarrior 3 had similar issues, but I can't comment on it's multiplayer experience as I had no access to multiplayer capability until much later on. Mechwarrior 2, again, can't say anything about multiplayer, but game glitchiness did indeed make the PPC a god-mode weapon due to putting 15-points of damage on multiple locations, and having unlimited range.

The problem is not the weapon system itself, but in how the programmers write the code for it, and the system around it. If the program writers are smart about things and recognize that Mechwarrior is a game that seperates itself from the pack with heat management, therefore taking out the easily exploited coolant system, then it'll be a huge step in the right direction.

Edited by ice trey, 17 February 2012 - 04:54 AM.