131 replies to this topic

[Durant Carlyle]

This topic is very polarizing. The vast majority either want the designs as they originally were or as they are in Project Phoenix. Then there's a few that want original models, and some that couldn't care less about them.

I would like to see those 'Mechs in the game in whatever form won't get PGI in trouble. Yes, that means I would rather not have them in the game at all if PGI would get sued over their inclusion.

For the record, I very much prefer the Project Phoenix designs.

[Habokku]

Count me in the camp of "Lets redesign ALL the 'mechs!"

I have a soft spot for the old unseen designs, believe me. I also understand and appreciate the redesigns in Project Phoenix, and do like many of them (the Thunderbolt, Battlemaster, and Wolverine especially!) with a very few exceptions such as the Marauder and Warhammer. They look kinda "Meh" but I'd rather have them in that format than not have them at all.

I want every 'mech in Battletech to be reworked using FlyingDebris style of artwork. We have several forum members such as IronHawk just to name one who are producing some jaw-dropping revamps to classic designs in that amazing style. His urbanmech revision is incredible and I for one would like to see many of the old rulebooks and TRO's one day reprinted with the new designs instead of the old. Give the franchise a face lift for the new generation. I love the old designs and artwork but lets face facts, a lot of classic, amazing mechs looks don't reflect their abilities.

But that's just my opinion, take it as you will.

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[WTFClock]

Strum Wealh, on 13 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

The funny thing is, the Stone Rhino/"Behemoth"


Doesn't look that much like the HWR-00-Mk. II Monster Heavy Weight Destroid that it is supposed to be based on:


Sure, both are reverse-joint bipedal walkers... other than that, they aren't all that similar.
The Marauder vs Glaug, I can see having been an issue... but this one?

That second robot, I forgot what it's from. I have a DVD and it's on the cover.

[Jack Gallows]

Halfinax, on 14 February 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Read more carefully, but yes, yes I do know that the Unseen art cannot be used as it violates HG's Licensing rights.

While I'm not saying for certain, due to people possibly not being able to talk about it in depth, PGI said in their reboot blog that the Warhammer wasn't the cause of the delay in production.

They also haven't commented on the unseen/reseen yet, and the FAQ leads me to believe they have something for us in that department or they'd have outright said "no."

[Halfinax]

Jack Gallows, on 15 February 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

While I'm not saying for certain, due to people possibly not being able to talk about it in depth, PGI said in their reboot blog that the Warhammer wasn't the cause of the delay in production.

They also haven't commented on the unseen/reseen yet, and the FAQ leads me to believe they have something for us in that department or they'd have outright said "no."

Again read what I am saying more carefully. It is the artwork that is Unseen or Reseen not the chassis. As long as the artwork does not violate HG's licensing rights those chassis can be used. I never said anything to the contrary.

[maxoconnor]

Rhinehart, on 14 February 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

How can we explain to you "Newcomers" what it was like to open the first ever boxed set of Battletech and see those incredible designs? How much fun it was to move those cardboard cut outs around? I didn't even play table top much but every time I did someone had to be lightning quick if they were going to get that Marauder before me!

Yes I was and am a Robotech fan.Not a Harmony Gold fan specifically because of this issue. It was that universe the drew me to the Battletech Universe and such a wonderful discovery it was. But it never would have happened without those mechs.

Can you imagine picking up that first battletech novel and the devouring the series? I grew up in a small town and ended up going by the local Eckerd Drugstore every week just because somehow the battletech books always ended up for sale in their little rack of novels.

The Mechs were the basis of so many iconic battletech characters and stories, they were the reason why when Mechwarrior 2 and Mechwarrior 2 Ghost Bears Legacy came out I played both of them through several times in the Marauder, Warhammer and Rifleman IICs before I ever bothered with a Clan Omni Mech. Who needed them?

Even for the Clan Fans, the Madcat, arguably the most recognized mech in the science fiction world owes half its design influence to the Marauder.

So what do you want to do, re-write battletech history? You want to take Jaime Wolf out of his Archer and put him in a Bombardier? A Catapult maybe? You want to take Grayson Carlyse's Marauder away and give him what, a Thug maybe? If you read those early novels the unseen mechs are the basis on which these iconic stories and characters were built.

Can't you understand that for us long and true fans the idea of quitting on these designs is not only ridiculous but somehow seems heretical?

Sure, what's the rub, its only a game, right? who cares, right? Ask a true New York Yankees fan how they'd feel about changing the name of the team to the Patriots. Or how about a Washington Redskins, Atlanta Braves or Cleveland indians fan about changing their teams to Native Americans?

You just don't get it. I guess you never will.

I am not saying it's reasonable. It really isn't.

But the day I give up my dreams of piloting my Marauder again I fully expect two things will happen.

First, Battltech will cease to mean any more to me than most other science fiction franchises.

Second, after giving up my dream I expect General George S. Patton to appear to me in a dream and call me a coward. Or maybe at least John Wayne.

HERE HERE!!!!!
You summed up my thoughts exactly my friend. I too could not retroactively remove the iconic mechs from the stories I loved when I got into the game. Grayson Carlyle will always pilot a Marauder, Jamie Wolf an Archer and Natasha Kerensky a Warhammer.
I don't mind a FlyingDebris remake of the mechs, because he has done a fantastic job so far, I just hope its a redraw based on the original versions, not the project phoenix versions because they went too far on some of them.
I just want my Ostroc

[Marauder3D]

I hear folks saying they are sick of this topic: just let it rest and see what happens. I sympathize and understand your sentiments completely.

That being said, I worry that if we don't keep threads like this on the first page, Piranha won't know how strongly we want the inclusion of these mechs, in whatever artistic form they feel best (read: entirely safe from litigation) about. These mechs are such a part of the fabric of the universe, I think we need to keep threads like this alive, and let folks know what we want, and why.

The day Piranha makes an announcement regarding a decision on these mechs, one way or another, is the day I'll be able to let this rest. Until then, this wheel is going to continue to squeek, squeek, squeek.

Besides, how could you ever feel a recon lance without some "bug*" mechs?

Cheers All





*Bug= Locust, Stinger, and Wasp, 3 of the most ubiquitous models in all of the inner sphere. Unforgiving 20 ton mechs that are fast, but if you get hit by almost anything bigger than a machine gun, heaven help you.

[Vexgrave Lars]

OK.. to clarify...

Those "Physical characteristics" of the image of each of the "unseen" cannot be (or for safety sake against licensing issues, wont be) used in MWO and will be altered (completely redesigned), while the overall "concept" of each mech (An Archer with 2xLRM20s etc...) will be in there, simply with a far different look. Because FD, or Flying Debris, is already remodeling the designs.

This while the mechs may be different looking we can expect some iteration of those mechs in the game, as decided on by the devs.

Which means, the cannon will stick, COL Wolf has his Archer, its just not the classic HG looking Archer.

Bliss!

I can live with that and will shut up now.

Thanks!

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 15 February 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Paladin1]

SMDMadCow, on 14 February 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

The whole reason that Project Phoenix exists, to make it so we have an image to associate with the names again and one that can be used freely and however it's needed to be.
If they are included, then they will get the Flying Debris treatment and they will look different.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I wish people would stop bringing this topic up.

See, here's the problem though. The Reseen aren't an actual replacement for the original Unseen, the Reseen are actually a newer model of the Unseen chassis, which means that we still need a replacement for the Unseen at this point in the time line. If FD is allowed to step up and fill that void by creating a new version of the Unseen to take their place, more power to him but we have to keep the timeline in mind here. It's been stated, catagorically, that the Unseen 3025 versions of the designs in question still exist and that the Reseen versions are just the designs that have been built since Project Phoenix was launched (around 3063 IIRC).

Trust me, the TT gamers have wrestled with this issue and the 2750/3057 Warship art issue since they first appeared.

[Marauder3D]

Paladin1, on 15 February 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

It's been stated, catagorically, that the Unseen 3025 versions of the designs in question still exist and that the Reseen versions are just the designs that have been built since Project Phoenix was launched (around 3063 IIRC).

I know that you are absolutely right on this issue. However, if you were Piranha, and (huge IF here) you agreed that you wanted to include all of these iconic mechs in a way that:

1. Expediently AND
2. Inexpensively AND
3. was unlikely to give rise to litigation

THEN, the best way to do that is just to say that for the purposes of MW:O, the Project Phoenix art is the model that exists in 3049, and move on with FD from there.

This is because 1) you don't need to reinvent the wheel and make new art as a starting point. 2) since the art already exists your only costs are sunk costs (FD is already your artist). 3) Project Phoenix designs are images owned entirely by the Battletech intellectual property.

Maybe not a popular route, but probably the easiest and quickest for the above reasons.

[Mason Grimm]

Personally I am okay with most of the Reseen designs. I am slowly wrapping my head around them and have been for a few years now. I actually kind of dig the Marauder reseen (which is why I own 2 of them from IWM as well as a Marauder II mini)

Frankly, they can retcon the entire thing if they want to and I'll support it. Why? because mechs are in the heart not necessarily in the skin?

You could paint up a little red wagon, mount an AC2 on that bad boy and call it the Marauder and I would still love it BUT if you were to take the original "Officer Pod" that the "Unseen" was based on and call it Twinkle Toes Sparkle Super-Shine? I would not be such a fan.

Ya know?

[Adridos]

Yeah, I'm fine with most re-seens, too. There are just some mechs that have a place in your heart and you expect something from them. Like Warhammer, for example. As much as we would like to forget about it, or make a version that guys over at Harmony Gold will like, there is no way to do it, because the design is perfect now, nothing can make him better. And also there are the reseen versions which look so bad and anime. Take my favorite mech, for example. I know it has anime shapes like hands and some other stuff and I would be glad if they made a good redesign of it, but their re-seen version just looks awfull. Take a look and tell me this thing looks more real than the one in the Japanese anime.



I know, there are some bits to like about it (I posted the prettiest one I found), but it just doesn't fit alongside other mechs we have and needs a redesign badly. To sum it up, he maybe looks good as a miniature, but in the game....

[Kartr]

I thought the reseen were unseen again because they were still to close to the HG owned art.

Personally I think FD needs to come up with some art for them, something HG can't claim looks like what they own. We know it'll look good too because FD's doing it. Last thing we need is some more Anime looking junk.

[Jack Gallows]

Halfinax, on 15 February 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

Again read what I am saying more carefully. It is the artwork that is Unseen or Reseen not the chassis. As long as the artwork does not violate HG's licensing rights those chassis can be used. I never said anything to the contrary.

Oiy. Do you take me for being daft? When I say chassis, I include the ARTWORK that makes up it's look. So...what I said stands and this comment from you is off. PGI said the artwork was not the cause of the delay, and there was NO issue with Harmony Gold over the art of the unseen Warhammer showing up in the video.

Thanks.

Also, for the rest of the thread, the funny thing is is that Harmony Gold may or may not even have the right to tell anyone off anyway, as it's kind of a legal snafu right now as to who can actually do what. They don't actually own the specific rights to the visuals, so it's a sticky situation that's more complex then trying to survive a day at the Celestial Palace.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 15 February 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Halfinax]

Jack Gallows, on 15 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Oiy. Do you take me for being daft? When I say chassis, I include the ARTWORK that makes up it's look. So...what I said stands and this comment from you is off. PGI said the artwork was not the cause of the delay, and there was NO issue with Harmony Gold over the art of the unseen Warhammer showing up in the video.

There were a number of differences between the Warhammer in the original announcement trailer and the Unseen Warhammer. This I think is where there is some confusion between us. There was a Warhammer Chassis in the trailer, but it was fairly different from the old Unseen Warhammer.

[Marauder3D]

Jack Gallows, on 15 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Also, for the rest of the thread, the funny thing is is that Harmony Gold may or may not even have the right to tell anyone off anyway, as it's kind of a legal snafu right now as to who can actually do what. They don't actually own the specific rights to the visuals, so it's a sticky situation that's more complex then trying to survive a day at the Celestial Palace.

This is what I gathered as well. Unfortunately, it only takes a few hundred dollars to file a federal court claim for copyright infringement, but several tens of thousands to mount an adequate defense. Even if it is a frivolous claim, defending a corporation from such things is expensive to say the least.

That being acknowledged, the best course of action is to avoid the appearance if impropriety, even though the Battletech intellectual property isn't in the wrong.

Sad facts, but we want Piranha to make lots of money and put out a good product for us, and that means avoiding litigious jerks who may or may not sue depending on the time of day it is, the moisture in the air, or how happy they were with their breakfast.

[Pht]

Halfinax, on 13 February 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

The "Unseen" refers to the artwork of certain chassis.

Yep. The artwork only.

Quote

This artwork violated Harmony Gold's copyright holdings and will never be seen in any official BTU product ever again.

The devil is in the details here.

The group that FASA got their rights to the visual likenesses from - twentieth century imports - had fallen off of the map by the time that FASA and hg wound up in court; so the paper trail and witnesses who could attest to FASA's rights were, as far as can be seen, not available.

FASA and hg made some sort of agreement; to this day nobody but the participants knows the details of that agreement, and they are NOT talking.

So we have no idea and cannot have any idea if hg or FASA's claims are valid; the information necessary to determine the dispute is lost.

And the true irony of this is that hg may have never realized that FASA was using the same images if FASA had not (as they were *required to in order to protect their ip - if you don't protect your IP, you lose it) gone into dispute with playmates for obvious IP theft in their exo-squad line. Playmates was, at the time, a merchandising partner with hg.



It's a nasty, tangled web.

Don't even begin to ask about the IP rights in japan...

Edited by Pht, 15 February 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Rhinehart]

I wouldn't necessairly mind a Fling Debris re-treatment of these original designs. His current looks have been Awesome!(And when is that being released hmm?)

But here's the thing. You want a re-design that reflects the look and feel the mech is supposed to have. For a mech Like the Marauder that means a reverse digitigrade stance, ball and socket arm joints with large PPC-medium Laser weapons pods on them and the top mounted AC 5. It not only needs to reflect the classic feel of the Mech, but because the design also heavily influenced the naming of the Clan Madcat (Marauder/Catapult combo) the design needs to also appear plausible in that regard as well.

However all of these characteristics are going to point you in the direction of the old Marauder, which means you risk ending up with something close enough to the original design to be actionable. Personally as long as Flying Debris can come up with something close enough I'll be fine with it. I was thinking along the lines of an armored helicopter style gunship body with the autocannon mounted where the rotor blades would be. I don't think its a coincidence that his Catapult has something of this kind of look.

The only problem will once again be that, a lot of us longtime Mechwarrior fans will still miss the oriiginal designs. Many of us feel and have felt that it's us fans that end up being the real losers in this whole circus sideshow. Too bad we have no rights whatsoever as far as legality goes.

[Rhinehart]

Pht, on 15 February 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Yep. The artwork only.



The devil is in the details here.

The group that FASA got their rights to the visual likenesses from - twentieth century imports - had fallen off of the map by the time that FASA and hg wound up in court; so the paper trail and witnesses who could attest to FASA's rights were, as far as can be seen, not available.

FASA and hg made some sort of agreement; to this day nobody but the participants knows the details of that agreement, and they are NOT talking.

So we have no idea and cannot have any idea if hg or FASA's claims are valid; the information necessary to determine the dispute is lost.

And the true irony of this is that hg may have never realized that FASA was using the same images if FASA had not (as they were *required to in order to protect their ip - if you don't protect your IP, you lose it) gone into dispute with playmates for obvious IP theft in their exo-squad line. Playmates was, at the time, a merchandising partner with hg.



It's a nasty, tangled web.

Don't even begin to ask about the IP rights in japan...

Heh that's actually a pretty awesome looking Madcat.

[Pht]

Rhinehart, on 15 February 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Heh that's actually a pretty awesome looking Madcat.

Apparently playmates thought so too - awesome enough to steal the visuals.