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Non Canon Battlemechs- Do they have a place in MW:O?


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Poll: Poll Dancers Vote Here: (139 member(s) have cast votes)

Can new mechs be added?

  1. No. (77 votes [55.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.40%

  2. Maybe, if mech experts introduce them and there are things like news feeds to support their entry and they make sens in the time frame of BTU that we are playing in. (46 votes [33.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.09%

  3. Yes (10 votes [7.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.19%

  4. I am unsure! (5 votes [3.60%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.60%

  5. Other - Please explain! (1 votes [0.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.72%

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#21 Sporkosophy

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:30 AM

View Post[EDMW]CSN, on 17 February 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Stick with Canon mechs first.
In fact the only 100 ton IS mechs that made it into the game are mostly the IS Atlas and Annihilators.

If taking 2750 SL designs and 3050 Invasion Era. We got Atlas (slugger D variant or sniper K variant), Annihilator (AC-10 boat), Imp (energy boat), Marauder II (Jump capable 100 tonner), King Crab (dual AC-20 boat) and the Atlas II (all round fighter). Out of the 6, we got only 2 readily shown in the IS line up.

This gotta change no ? And this is just the 100 tonner designs !


You forgot the PLG-1N Pillager; a Star League prototype of the dual gauss Pillager, instead armed with twin AC/20's, and with the ammo for it.

#22 MaddMaxx

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:34 AM

View PostBarantor, on 17 February 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:


Wolfhound - 3028
Hatchetman and Axman - 3023

The thing is, there are already so many mechs that folks love and have a lot of lore about that we don't really need anything new. Once the clans hit they will be busy enough keeping up with bringing all those mechs out.


Fair enough. How many of the total BattleMechs have you driven while playing the MechWarrior PC games? Not even scratched the surface right?

Then why does ever game select the same "well known" BattleMechs when so many others, that can do the same job (via variant) never make the cut? (Unseen don't factor in)

I know why but why not Branch out this time, given we are open ended. Someone will always drive everything if it gets into the game.

#23 Opus

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:55 AM

View PostOmigir, on 17 February 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:


All I really have to say, is that with as much war as is going on in the IS, it makes no sens that R&D slowed down as much as it had during 3030-3050. The IS does not really start seeing new technology untill *after* the clans invade. This is unheard of. War always breeds new techology yet not only did the termoil prevent new war machines being developed, but the IS retarded in concepts and desing during this time frame. Why not stumble on lost tech a little bit sooner? Have that burst of inovations that are seen in 3050-3060 (or so) when starlegue tech is being rediscovered and implimented occure sooner?



Here is a point NOBODY has mentioned; How many Mechs/Ships/and other equipment did Comstar, and Word of Blake keep Hidden. at the Battle of Tukayyid Comstar unleashed an Army NOBODY knew they had. and they kicked the Clans azz btw...

the more the canonized conversation continues, the more it doesn't make sense....

#24 TheRulesLawyer

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:56 AM

There is simply too many canon mechs out there to need to generate completely new ones. I guess I can understand PGI or FD wanting to leave their own mark on canon, but its just not needed. I'd also rather just see the effort go into making more canon mech available to the foreseeable future. I feel like if we head into non-canon mechs early on, many important canon mechs will never get done.

#25 Opus

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:00 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 17 February 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:


Fair enough. How many of the total BattleMechs have you driven while playing the MechWarrior PC games? Not even scratched the surface right?

Then why does ever game select the same "well known" BattleMechs when so many others, that can do the same job (via variant) never make the cut? (Unseen don't factor in)

I know why but why not Branch out this time, given we are open ended. Someone will always drive everything if it gets into the game.



that's more a of a developer/production issue than anything else, how much time and $$$ are you going to spend creating a ""New"" mech

and with the lawsuits flying around over the past 15 years, who would want to?..

I have driven every Mech in the Vid-game series, and they function in different ways, but not as strict rulings as TT canon play...now as for impact on game play a new mech means nothing really, if you have 300+ now, whats another 300?

I think we're in new territory here with MWO, the can of worms is open, and all hell has broken loose; aka 3 -5 mech games coming out in the next 12 months...point in case

Edited by Opus, 17 February 2012 - 10:06 AM.


#26 Vexgrave Lars

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:09 AM

View PostTheRulesLawyer, on 17 February 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

There is simply too many canon mechs out there to need to generate completely new ones. I guess I can understand PGI or FD wanting to leave their own mark on canon, but its just not needed. I'd also rather just see the effort go into making more canon mech available to the foreseeable future. I feel like if we head into non-canon mechs early on, many important canon mechs will never get done.


Non cannon mechs do not belong in the opening play, totally agree, simply R&D cannot be unconstrained until we move through a need for development.
Non cannon mechs after the first year are practically a demand of "new history" after the Clans arrive. New Mechs are developed based on the needs of the soldiers in the field, not does it "look cool" in the game.

If the game is trying to act as a real time reality in all other course why not this one. If political lines and boundries change, and planet trade hands, why is it so unreasonable to have non-canon gear (of which is based of a mythical story of giant fighting robots) diverge as we make those changes in the game world.

Mechwarrior is not a religion, yet look at how were defining the games development direction based on this type of inquiry, such verbiage as, "canonical impediment prevents sacrament from being performed validly and/or licitly." "Canon" or "law" applicable in a non static environment, poppycock!

Its Scifi mythology. The only reason to force it to stagnate is to ensure that those "in the know", and are old school hardcore nerd MW gamaholics stay in control, they know the good fits, good Mechs ...and be damed they should lose control for having any surprises. I am old school, but welcome new gear, growth and development. Surprise me, exhilarate me with imagination and concept! I'll pass on the same ole, same ole.

Thanks

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 17 February 2012 - 10:20 AM.


#27 Omigir

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:13 AM

Ok, granted, there are plenty of Canon mechs to be put into the game. But one thing we all knew, all of us, is that more then 2/3'rds of those mechs are.. unsound.. to say the least. You ask why have they not shown up in games of the past? Because they look rediculious... and becuase of at the time technological restraints. I can flip through sarna and what goes through my mind is this 'walking egg, awkward muppet, walking bullet sponge, geraffs are more lethial' etc etc. There are many mechs that a redesign will not save the fact that they look like something you would find in the box of a happy meal. Not to mention the deisngs that come standard with 1 med laser. There are so many of those mech deisgns that are throw aways, that its not even worth the effort to try and code them in.

So why bother now? for nistalgia? No one is going to say 'let me get in my Osceblabla becuase I remeber that one time I used a single medium laser to take out the clans.. : \

#28 Technoviking

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:19 AM

What's wrong with unsound mechs? Its a technologically backward alternate universe. Yes for Nostalgia! A new ALT config on a old Chassis, if you're worreied about the underpowered thing. Why NOT make everyones favorite mech... I mean if some guy has been pining over an Imp his whole life, why not make that first before having a guy make new one from scratch. Why make new Mechs? There are hundreds of Mechs already. This has nothing to do "old school control" because any knowledge you have now will only generally, vaguely transfer to MWO. Its about doing sweet BattleTech Magic first.

Besides, do you really want to pilot Paul's new Pink Rabbit PNK-RBT? Do you want to walk in a mech in grass skirt for Matt's HLA-GRL7?

I bet you frickin do. I just bet.

#29 Marauder3D

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:23 AM

People who want new mechs ask the question, "why shouldn't we have new, non canon mechs."

I guess for traditionalists who have grown up with the game, the question seems more like "why should we have new mechs when....."

1. Plenty of canon mechs have never made it into the game.

2. Plenty of canon mechs have not been in a game since MW1 due to unseen/reseen/PP issues.

3. Some people didn't care for the mechs added by Micro$oft in MW4. Osiris, Razorback, Uziel, Hellspawn, Thanatos, etc. If the only experience we have of a video game creating mechs resulted in machines that people didn't like, why would they risk it again?

4. New mechs themselves don't really add anything.

5. Time is better spent on perfecting artwork for extant mechs or gameplay or balance.

6. Resources (money) are finite in game development. Put them where it will do the most good for the game itself.

Here are some reasons that roll of the top of my head. Do I want new mechs? Naw, give me a great game. There are plenty of mechs out there to choose from, in any time period. Especially in 3049. There are far more mechs and variants than you could include by this summer. Don't waste money, time, programmers, etc on something we don't need.

Cheers

#30 Barantor

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:26 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 17 February 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:


Fair enough. How many of the total BattleMechs have you driven while playing the MechWarrior PC games? Not even scratched the surface right?


51 So far from my start at MW2 and not counting the ones mektek added (some of those are non canon). Which as you said hasn't scratched the surface and is a good reason to do those and canon mechs first, before adding any non canon mechs.

(Took a while to count, even I was surprised at so many different ones.) ;)

View PostMaddMaxx, on 17 February 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Then why does every game select the same "well known" BattleMechs when so many others, that can do the same job (via variant) never make the cut? (Unseen don't factor in)


Popularity, they are ones in the novels or the game itself that stand out or are in the lore the most produced. You will see a scream of a thousand fanboi's if the Mad Cat doesn't make it into the initial Clan release once they show up, it is because they are popular in the lore and in the previous games which is what a lot of this games fans/customers will be drawn from.

View PostMaddMaxx, on 17 February 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

I know why but why not Branch out this time, given we are open ended. Someone will always drive everything if it gets into the game.


They will, but the customer base expects certain mechs to be included first given that the franchise is this old. I would love to see more of the mechs that didn't make it into the previous games, but I realize that the draw is the ones that bring back memories or are the most iconic like the Atlas.


Omigir - as far as the 'unsound' mechs I think flying debris has us covered and will be able to make some of them very sound. Read his interview and he says that ones like the stalker should be interesting to do and I hope we see them redone so they can become 'new again' and still retain the lore that was their terrible design from before.

Edited by Barantor, 17 February 2012 - 10:29 AM.


#31 Tsen Shang

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:35 AM

View PostOmigir, on 17 February 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

All I really have to say, is that with as much war as is going on in the IS, it makes no sens that R&D slowed down as much as it had during 3030-3050. The IS does not really start seeing new technology untill *after* the clans invade. This is unheard of. War always breeds new techology yet not only did the termoil prevent new war machines being developed, but the IS retarded in concepts and desing during this time frame. Why not stumble on lost tech a little bit sooner? Have that burst of inovations that are seen in 3050-3060 (or so) when starlegue tech is being rediscovered and implimented occure sooner?


Surprised no one's mentioned it yet (though a few have been close) most top scientists of the day were being systematically assassinated by Comstar, and new manufacturing plants sabotaged and destroyed. The fact that a few new mechs were put out is actually a minor miracle. The plan was for Comstar to show up and be the big hero, which clearly backfired when the clans showed up. It's explained.

View PostVexgrave Lars, on 17 February 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Mechwarrior is not a religion, yet look at how were defining the games development direction based on this type of inquiry, such verbiage as, "canonical impediment prevents sacrament from being performed validly and/or licitly." Cannon or "law" applicable in a non static environment, poppycock!

Its Scifi mythology. The only reason to force it to stagnate is to ensure that those "in the know", and are old school hardcore nerd MW gamaholics stay in control, they know the good fits, good Mechs ...and be damed they should lose control for having any surprises. I am old school, but welcome new gear, growth and development. Surprise me, exhilarate me with imagination and concept! I'll pass on the same ole, same ole.


This is the equivalent of saying "Why can't Sonic the Hedgehog carry a laser shotgun?" We stick to the canon because the canon forms the universe. It defines the playing characters, the houses that drive the fight to rule the sphere, the way mechs get developed, and why certain people hate other people. The lore is what drives the universe and it always has, because players enjoy it. You know what would surprise me? Instead of creating crappy new mechs like we got with MW:4, let us see so many of the mechs that have never been put into a mechwarrior game. The Annihilator made it in at one point, why can't we have an Imp, or a Dervish, or a Quickdraw?

Shoot, I'll give you a challenge, Vex. Name an original mech idea. Something that hasn't been done before, and when the game comes out, I'll buy you a $5 gift card to MWO.

View PostMarauder3D, on 17 February 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Plenty of canon mechs have never made it into the game.

New mechs themselves don't really add anything.


Also these.

So to summarize...

No.

#32 Technoviking

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:35 AM

View PostMarauder3D, on 17 February 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

People who want new mechs ask the question, "why shouldn't we have new, non canon mechs."

3. Some people didn't care for the mechs added by Micro$oft in MW4. Osiris, Razorback, Uziel, Hellspawn, Thanatos, etc. If the only experience we have of a video game creating mechs resulted in machines that people didn't like, why would they risk it again?



I was going to like your post, I think I will, but I LOVE these chassis. I think they are well loved by a large portion of the community. This really goes in the face of my not wanting to add new mechs. Hmm...

#33 Tsen Shang

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:38 AM

Really, Techno?

Yuck.

#34 Marauder3D

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:41 AM

View PostTechnoviking, on 17 February 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:


I was going to like your post, I think I will, but I LOVE these chassis. I think they are well loved by a large portion of the community. This really goes in the face of my not wanting to add new mechs. Hmm...


I've noticed a huge part of the community likes those mechs. One thing to consider there: do you love those mechs, or did you love the game so much that you loved the mechs in the game? I bet, and I could certainly be wrong here, that people would love ANY mechs in a good mech game.

To prove it: If a mech game was outstanding, could it make the Urbanmech, arguably the most situational, slow, single purposed design, actually fun to pilot? If the answer is yes, well then maybe its the game, not the mechs.

On the other hand, maybe you really like the look and feel of those mechs? Thats fine too, because beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

Myself, I would have preferred old mechs in MW4, and no little sprites of monkeys running around through the brush, tanks and aero forces that took more than 1 pulse laser to destroy, and 100 ton mechs that didn't feel as agile as a Spider or Phoenix Hawk.

Not all arguments are created equal, and that one may not be the strongest in that post. To each there own!

#35 Rockhound085

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:43 AM

I think there should not be a problem with there not being a lot of 100 toners at first, as much as I would kill to get my hands on a piliger (my main daishi varient was based on that mech) I rarely went with a 100 toner after my first 6 months when I was picked apart by a single raven. After that I went to the 85 ton templar and the 50 ton uziel as my main mechs. Simply put the new kids love the mechs with the most fire power with 9 pulse lasers on a sunder and all that stuff while the best jocks know that you can beat them by running around them.

Hell I remember droping into a match and being on a side where they were only allowed Fleas while the other (with the host) was only allowed assaults and heavies, I didnt drop any of them bcs my weapons where shot off after 30 seconds but I survived for 5 minutes by weaving and bobing my way in between 6 or 7 mechs. I remember a few of them just started shooting at the ground where I had just been. Eventually a Thor brought me down but it is still my favorite fight. So you may take the Atlas or King Crab or Imp, but I will be in my wolfhound or jenner tearing nice big holes in your rear armor while you are still trying to figure out where the hell i just went. ;)

#36 Dihm

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:44 AM

No.

#37 Vexgrave Lars

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:46 AM

View PostMarauder3D, on 17 February 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

People who want new mechs ask the question, "why shouldn't we have new, non canon mechs."

I guess for traditionalists who have grown up with the game, the question seems more like "why should we have new mechs when....."

1. Plenty of canon mechs have never made it into the game.

2. Plenty of canon mechs have not been in a game since MW1 due to unseen/reseen/PP issues.

3. Some people didn't care for the mechs added by Micro$oft in MW4. Osiris, Razorback, Uziel, Hellspawn, Thanatos, etc. If the only experience we have of a video game creating mechs resulted in machines that people didn't like, why would they risk it again?

4. New mechs themselves don't really add anything.

5. Time is better spent on perfecting artwork for extant mechs or gameplay or balance.

6. Resources (money) are finite in game development. Put them where it will do the most good for the game itself.

Here are some reasons that roll of the top of my head. Do I want new mechs? Naw, give me a great game. There are plenty of mechs out there to choose from, in any time period. Especially in 3049. There are far more mechs and variants than you could include by this summer. Don't waste money, time, programmers, etc on something we don't need.

Cheers


1. Plenty of canon gear, while true 2/3rds are kind of well... crude garbage.
2. Perfect reason to allow the game dev's to build their own.
3. If the Dev's are just copying MW 4, they (AND WE) would probably be bored updating the same ole graphics... I get a sense that MW:O is being designed to be more (I hope!)
4. Your perspective, won't argue that. I disagree, I think they will add nuance and variety.
5. Balance! I hate that. Battletech and MW TT and CBG have almost no balance... and if youv'e played it you know the story about an Atlas against 20 Wasps... that is NOT balance, thats war. The guy with the bigger stick, and best supplies, and R&D/Manufacturing base usually wins. You want balance I can suggest some Blizzard games. Lets not be sure that everyone gets a trophy for showing up by ******* on all of the "reality" aspects of the game.
6 So rehashing the same regurgitated materials for eternity is the way for the Devs to make money? I think not, let please remember that these guys need to keep current and theyre already starting in the past. Give them some room to grow, to make those hard earned "finite" resources, on and F2P game... (what?).

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 17 February 2012 - 10:59 AM.


#38 Technoviking

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostTsen Shang, on 17 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Really, Techno?

Yuck.



Well.... Uziel and Hellspawn. Thanatos I liked for it "I'm a Rifleman AND a Thor, the worst of both!" Osiris looked silly and ran silly, it was like a clown-car Raven. I guess of the Microsoft introduced mechs: Hmm... I liked the Argus because it was so blind, so gimped, not because it was inherently cool looking or fun to drive... the Hellspawn for its turning capabilities, fun to DFA with... I didn't mind its looks either, but its running animation was giggle silly. Chimera, another "I'm gimped, so I'm awesome!"

So... I guess....

Uziel and... the Uziel. I mean LOVE that one.

What I did like about all those designs was the non humanoid shape of a lot of them, I like that stuff, but no, otehr than the Uziel, which I play in TT as well...did I love. But they were tolerable, for sure! I felt MekTek really "fixed" that game adding so many canon chassis.

Edited by Technoviking, 17 February 2012 - 10:54 AM.


#39 Vexgrave Lars

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:55 AM

An original Mech "concept" thats not so hard, define the style? How would you like it? I have Blender ;) Can I say that we have gone through all the shapes that there are in the geometry box? Probably not. Would it be cool? Maybe.

Ask an artist for a "Concept" and you can get all kinds if weirdness.

The point is.. the only LAW is the rules, which should not apply to DESIGNS (How it looks, whats it named! to clarify ).

The rules define what and how much you can strap to a chassis... What that chassis looks like and its NAME are really kinda well... up to the artist.

Who cares is we name a mech a "VISHNU VSN-H7U" and its got giant flares and foils on it with wing planes on the arms. IF its 80 tons and fits the gear, Moves at X rate and has X armor. Long as the math works.. let the designers have a little fun.. that so hard.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 17 February 2012 - 11:04 AM.


#40 Stone Profit

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostOpus, on 17 February 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

hey, its 3049 right, Mech technology is about to take a huge hit, in the next 18months on the ramp up of Clan technology being introduced.

there is NO reason Canon mech technology is in stone;

Fasa, MS, and Harmony Gold have screwed this world up for us the last 10 years; I feel WE as fans can influence technology and help create a new vibrant life into the Mechwarrior/Battletech world...


Just because you dont like it doesnt mean its screwed up. Since they created it, they get to do what they want. I for one loved the WOB Jihad and Dark Age, while not the best, wasnt all that bad. More people need to appreciate the hard work the people involved with BT have put into it, and stop wishing things were the way you want it.

Edited by Stone Profit, 17 February 2012 - 09:28 PM.






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