19 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

The general subject of the FedCom Accords (the agreement between the Federated Suns (House Davion) and the Lyran Commonwealth (House Steiner) intended to unite the two realms as the Federated Commonwealth) and the Concord of Kapteyn (a non-aggression pact between the the Draconis Combine (House Kurita), the Capellan Confederation (House Liao), and the Free Worlds League (House Marik)) has been on my mind recently (and has been mentioned, often in passing, in other threads; one of the more notable threads mentioning both agreements is this one), especially with regard to the availability of 'Mechs and equipment (as brought up in another thread, specifically in this post) and mission assignments and Merc contracts.

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In 3020, Archon Katrina Steiner of the Lyran Commonwealth issued a "Peace Proposal" to all of the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere; only First Prince Hanse Davion of the Federated Suns responded, and the two states began a long-running dialogue. In 3020 the two Successor States signed the FedCom Accords, a treaty which formalized military, scientific and economic exchange between the two states. However, included in the document was a secret provision, promising the marriage of Prince Hanse and Archon-Designate Melissa Steiner, which would unite the two in a vast political entity, the Federated Commonwealth. This provision would become known to the other States in 3027 during the Silver Eagle Incident.

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The lowering of trade restrictions between the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth would do much to strengthen their respective economies, especially after the Fourth Succession War and War of 3039. The conquest of fresh territory would also help strengthen the business sector as corporations began to expand and grow into these new markets. This led to massive exploitation, such that in 3036 Melissa Steiner-Davion had to step in and put an end to their unfair practices. In the years afterward, most effort went towards strengthening local firms, such as the revival of Asuncion Industries.

Trade with the other Successor States however dropped dramatically in the years following FedCom's formation. Only with the St. Ives Compact and Free Rasalhague Republic was FedCom an active trader, and even the latter felt constrained to keep economic activity with the new superstate at much lower levels for fear of offending the Draconis Combine.

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The Armed Forces of the Federated Commonwealth was the combined military of the AFFS and LCAF. By early 3041 AFFC High Command formally accepted control of the two organizations, and by 3042 the last vestiges of both militaries was discarded. By 3050 the AFFC was the largest military organization in the Inner Sphere, with a BattleMech strength of 256 regiments and 1 battalion.

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Signed on October 13, 3022, the Concord of Kapteyn (also occasionally called the Treaty of Kapteyn or the Kapteyn Accords) was a three-sided agreement between Houses Kurita, Marik and Liao that called for an end to hostilities and mutual support in training and intelligence. It was meant to counterbalance the formation of the powerful Federated Commonwealth alliance by Houses Steiner and Davion.

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The modest benefits that the Concord of Kapteyn brought include a relatively low-level technology exchange program, and trade agreements for BattleMechs, research results and similar sensitive items and information.

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While it was left outdated by the massive changes that the political landscape underwent after the Fourth Succession War, the Concord of Kapteyn never technically expired, nor was it ever formally canceled by the signatory parties. After the War of 3039 the Draconis Combine supplied Listen-Kill Missile technology (and the countermeasures) to the League and the Confederation in an attempt to rekindle the Concord of Kapteyn.

As stated in Developer Q&A 2, all of the factions will have access to the same equipment, albeit at different prices.

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Do factions have access to unique mechs or weapons? -cobrafive
[BRYAN] No. Prices may vary, but everyone has equal access to items.

Moreover, we know (from the same Q&A) that rank will not affect availability of non-cosmetic items.

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Since player rankings were brought up in direct comparison to games like the Call of Duty series or Battlefield series, what can we expect to see in terms of "special privileges" as you earn promotions? I know in the Battlefield games, for example, higher ranks not only unlock additional equipment, in several games they actually influenced your opportunities to become battlefield commander. –Ghost

[PAUL] Battlefield and Call of Duty are a different weapon/play mechanic than what makes up MechWarrior. In the two FPS’s mentioned, all weapons are very close in terms of efficiency of poking holes through your opponents. If they give you a “better” gun for being a higher rank, it’s not THAT big of an issue because in the end, a bullet hitting your target is a bullet hitting your target. In MechWarrior, this is not really the case. There are a lot more traits of firing a weapon that you need to pay attention to in order to keep it and you in working condition (heat, weight, weapon type, etc). That being said, we will not be providing weapons or Mechs at higher ranks, but we will provide low to zero impact items such as skins and other visual customizations.

So, what I'm wondering is:

1.) Have the Devs considered implementing these agreements/alliances in MWO, or would they (if they haven't decided to do so already) be open to implementing them if there is sufficient interest from the player base (or, conversely, not implementing them if there was sufficient interest from the player base in that option)?

2.) If implemented, how would/should these agreements affect the prices that any given player pays for 'Mechs and equipment?

Assuming the price for acquiring out-of-House products is always substantially (say, 50%?) greater than that of similar/equivalent in-House products:

• Should FedSuns and Lyran players receive a discount (say, a 15-20% decrease on the base out-of-House price) on equipment ('Mechs, weapons, etc.) produced the others' realm (though, still paying more than they would for the same/equivalent item produced in-House), while paying somewhat more (say, the base out-of-House price) for the same/equivalent item produced by the Republic and substantially more (say, a 25-30% increase on the base out-of-House price) for the same/equivalent item produced by the Combine, the Confederation, or the League?
  
• Likewise, should Capellan, Draconian, or League players receive a similar discount on equipment produced the others' realms while likewise paying somewhat more for the same/equivalent equipment produced by the Republic and substantially more for the same/equivalent equipment produced by the (Lyran) Commonwealth or the Suns?
  
• Should Republican players, as members of neither alliance, pay the base out-of-House prices for weapons and equipment produced by the other realms?
  
• Would/should Mercs and Lone Wolves be entitled to a similar-but-lesser discounts (say, a 5-10% decrease on the base out-of-House price) from their closest affiliation (highest loyalty points), and mark-ups (say, a 20-25% increase on the base out-of-House price) from the others?

Example 1:

A FedSuns player wants to buy a PPC to install on one's 'Mech.
Let's say that the base - and, thus, in-House - price for a PPC is 200,000 c-bills.
With a 50% mark-up, the base out-of-House price for the same PPC would be 300,000 c-bills.

As such, a FedSuns-made PPC would cost this player 200,000 c-bills.
An equivalent Lyran-made PPC would cost this player the 15-20% less than base out-of-House price due to the alliance between the two realms: 240,000 to 255,000 c-bills.
An equivalent Republic-made PPC would cost this player the base out-of-house price: 300,000 c-bills.
An equivalent Combine-made, Confederation-made, or League-made PPC would cost this player 25-30% more than the base out-of-House price due to being a member of one of the realms in the opposing alliance: 375,000 to 390,000 c-bills.

Example 2:
A FRR player wants to buy a new 'Mech - say, a Centurion.
Let's say that the base - and, thus, in-House - price for said Centurion is 3,491,500 c-bills.
With a 50% mark-up, the base out-of-House price for the same Centurion would be 5,237,250 c-bills.

As such, a Republic-made Centurion would cost this player 3,491,500 c-bills.
An equivalent FedSuns-made, Lyran-made, Combine-made, Confederation-made, or League-made Centurion would cost this player the base out-of-house price: 5,237,250 c-bills.

Example 3:
A Capellan player also wants to buy a Centurion.

Let's again say that the base - and, thus, in-House - price for said Centurion is 3,491,500 c-bills.
With a 50% mark-up, the base out-of-House price for the same Centurion would, again, be 5,237,250 c-bills.

As such, a Confederation-made Centurion would cost this player 3,491,500 c-bills.
An equivalent Combine-made or League-made Centurion would cost this player the 15-20% less than base out-of-House price due to the alliance between the three realms: 4,189,800 to 4,451,662.5 c-bills.
An equivalent Republic-made Centurion would cost this player the base out-of-house price: 5,237,250 c-bills.
An equivalent FedSuns-made or Lyran-made Centurion would cost this player 25-30% more than the base out-of-House price due to being a member of one of the realms in the opposing alliance: 6,546,562.5 to 6,808,425 c-bills.

Example 4:
A Merc or Lone Wolf with a fairly-high standing with House Marik also wants to buy a PPC for one's 'Mech.

Let's again say that the base - and, thus, in-House - price for a PPC is 200,000 c-bills.
With a 50% mark-up, the base out-of-House price for the same PPC would be 300,000 c-bills.

As such, a League-made PPC would cost this player 5-10% less than the base out-of-House price: 270,000 to 285,000 c-bills.
An equivalent Combine-made, Confederation-made, FedSuns-made, Lyran-made, or Republic-made PPC would cost this player 20-25% more than the base out-of-House price: 360,000 to 375,000 c-bills.

3.) How should these alliances affect the ability to execute missions/contracts against other powers?

As the FedCom Accords merged the armies of the Federate Sums and the Lyran Commonwealth into a single entity (the Armed Forces of the Federated Commonwealth), it doesn't make much sense for the standing armies (that is, Faction Players) either realm to ever attack the other (outside of an instance of civil war), right?
(Of course, that wouldn't necessarily stop private concerns - corporations and certain individuals, for example - from hiring Mercs and Lone Wolves to execute certain tasks... right?)

By contrast, the Concord of Kapteyn "failed to truly reconcile Houses Marik and Liao, however, who continued to raid each other with deniable mercenary assets".
That sort of statement would seem to indicate that while standing armies (Faction Players) might not typically be used to attack allies, Mercs (and Lone Wolves) might be used for "plausible deniability" purposes.


I think it would add an interesting new dimension (or set of dimensions) to the game.
Your thoughts?

[Kenyon Burguess]

while mech prices will prolly differ for regions for house players, i think mercs are just going to pay out extra for the things they want. black market goods are expensive after all. i think the easiest way to deal with weapons is to just not have them region specific. after all would you buy any other medium laser besides the hellbitch?

[Petroff Northrup]

I would love to see these come into play but depending on how things are at launch might not be very viable.

[Strum Wealh]

Geist Null, on 25 February 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

while mech prices will prolly differ for regions for house players, i think mercs are just going to pay out extra for the things they want. black market goods are expensive after all.

Probably so.
Though, how much should/would the IS's political landscape - and, more to the point, one's standing and relationship to any given element(s) of that landscape - affect those prices?

Geist Null, on 25 February 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

i think the easiest way to deal with weapons is to just not have them region specific.

From Bryan's statement from the Q&A, it seems that access to "items" ('Mechs and weapons being specifically in the question, with the term probably including modules and other equipment) won't be restricted by faction, though "prices may vary".
Will one's faction affiliation versus the faction affiliation of the individual weapon (or its manufacturer, or its seller) be one of the factors that determine that variance? Should it be a factor?

Geist Null, on 25 February 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

after all would you buy any other medium laser besides the hellbitch?

Because (canonically) the manufacturer, Killosh Industries on Bharat, "faltered prior to fall of the Star League, resulting in the manufacturer entering into bankruptcy" and "retooled to produce civilian logging equipment to avoid bankruptcy", with most/all surviving examples of the "Randall Hellbitch Medium Laser" (I was surprised, but it is a canon name) being mounted on the Magi infantry support vehicles (also manufactured by Killosh) being in the hands of the Com Guards, so they're either very expensive or, more likely, not for sale?

To use another example, there (canonically) seems to be exactly one PPC manufacturer in the entire Federated Suns - Johnson Industries' plant on New Syrtis. What if one really wants a Magna Hellstar (manufactured by Magna Metals, Inc. in the FWL)?

Though, I would suppose that the difference between, say, an "Intek Medium Laser" and a "Starflash II Medium Laser" only really becomes important if a.) one has a very strong affiliation with certain brands/companies and/or b.) there is some performance difference between them, like one being a high-damage-per-shot/slow-recycle model and the other a low-damage-per-shot/fast-recycle model (assuming such differences are implemented and damage-per-shot and ROF are balanced to work out to the same average DPS)...

I would imagine that it would play a bigger role in acquiring 'Mechs.
It should be more difficult (that is, more expensive) for Capellans to get their hands on a factory-new Devastator (if implemented) than for FedSunners to do the same, while it should be more difficult (more expensive) for FedSunners to get their hands on a factory-new Raven (if implemented) than for Capellans to do the same, yes?

Petroff Northrup, on 25 February 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

I would love to see these come into play but depending on how things are at launch might not be very viable.

Agreed.
Though... as written, or with some modifications? Or with a wholly different implementation that accomplishes the same ends?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 25 February 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[osito]

Okay that post was way to detailed and confusing to read while i have a massive hangover. I will try again later.

[Adridos]

They have made Fed Com an official faction. And because Concord of Kapteyn was a response to it in lore, so shall it be in the game.

[Alan Grant]

This is really well explained. I understood it on the first read through. Well I got the whole idea of it anyway. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Although I would point out I agree if the different houses sold different versions of tech with benefits/disadvantages over other house variants, like Strum pointed out [I think, getting late now], otherwise it'd be redundant paying more for the same item. I'm assuming you had that in mind.

Adridos, on 25 February 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

They have made Fed Com an official faction. And because Concord of Kapteyn was a response to it in lore, so shall it be in the game.

Who made the what now?

Edited by alan grant, 25 February 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[Adridos]

alan grant, on 25 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Who made the what now?

In the map of the Inner Sphere, devs had Federated Commonwealth instead of separate Steiner and Davion territory, so we assume Fed Com is officially in the game.

[Alan Grant]

Adridos, on 25 February 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

In the map of the Inner Sphere, devs had Federated Commonwealth instead of separate Steiner and Davion territory, so we assume Fed Com is officially in the game.

But isn't that just a generic map of the timeframe. I'm pretty sure I've seen that map before the game was even announced somewhere else. Or maybe I'm confused with another highly detailed one. Either way, the fedcom as an entity will most likely exist but as a playable faction probably not so. Factions are Houses, irrespective of the realm they occupy. But that's off topic, I'll stop there.

[100mile]

Have not made Fed Com an official faction..clearly have house Davion and House Steiner seperated in the forums and the game...of course we will have to wait until Game launch to see what the Dev's do..they have already said things will be different than we think...on several occasions...

[Adridos]

I didn't say it is a special faction. All I said is that game fully recognizes (probably) Federated Commonwealth and thus, you can't attack Steiner and vice versa.

[SMDMadCow]

The Federated Commonwealth is a true blending of 2 nations. The Kapteyn Accords are not, and really didn't accomplish much, a little bit of relaxation on what goes over the border, but not much. The Accords could not produce the same effect because it still regards all 3 members as separate entities. Hell, House Marik even invaded some of House Liaos worlds in the 4th Sucession War, flying in the face of the accords.

As to the OP, I think this is being over-thought. If you could buy a PPC from Lyran Space and one from Davion space and the Davion one is cheaper, why would you ever buy the Lyran one?

Also, the posts from the Devs only say that we won't be receiveing equipment base on rank. It could very well be the higher rank you are (the more loyalty points you have) then the bigger a discount on items that are more specific to your faction. For example, a Captain might find it to be prohibitavely expensive to purchase more than one Assault Mech, where a Marshal may be able to fund 2 or 3.

I think there will be an influence of politics on price, and therefore I present these examples:
Centurion - Produced in Federated Suns, cost of 3,491,500 c-bills
Players that can buy at this cost: Davion, Steiner, Contracted Mercs with Davion/Steiner
All other players must purchase at increased cost of 5,237,250 c-bills (50% markup)

Dragon - Produced in Draconis Combine, cost of 5,036,800 c-bills
Players that can buy at this cost: Kurita, Contracted Mercs with Kurita
Players that can buy at +25%: Marik, Liao, Contracted Mercs with Marik/Liao
Players that can buy at +50%: Davion, Steiner, Contracted Mercs with Davion/Steiner

Pricing mark ups show the political influence of the Fed Com treaty and the Kapteyn Accords. I also beleive these prices would be subject to change, the FC and DC start to buddy up in the clan invasion, which could drop prices on certain mechs.

[Semyon Drakon]

I think that merc pricing won't be so bad because there's always the availability of legitiamte arms dealers.

In the Mechwarrior/Battletech universe mercenaries don't live in the shadowy world they inhabit threse days. they are legitimate businesses. Arms dealers would have no problems selling on the opne market. in fact from memory they have dealers on Outreach and Galatea for just this sort of thing.

Semyon.

[Thorn Hallis]

I'm really interested to see if the CC-FWL border will have combat regions in the beginning.

[FinnMcKool]

Im a purist when it comes to the story/History of the Mechwarrior Universe, that being said we know the DEVs are Fans and have a tricky job to do; with game play balance , and remain true to story.

I think we will have to trust them .

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I would assume that "standard" price for mechs etc is that given in the TRO's etc?

[Nick Makiaveli]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 26 February 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

I would assume that "standard" price for mechs etc is that given in the TRO's etc?

I think that is what most people reference when they don't just make up numbers. I don't think we have any solid numbers as of yet.

It's open to modification, since the TT game didn't really delve into it, and so the economics may not make sense if they just copy/paste them. IE the TT version might have the best merc contract be starvation wages after expenses are deducted etc.

[Egomane]

Why shouldn't we create our own version of what happend from summer 3049 till whatever year MW:O will run?

Will be creating historic events not be much more fun, then just replaying those in the books?

I know that a lot of people were hyped about a possible 3015 restart of the timeline when Mechwarrior 5 was announced. Why not make it happen just with 3049? What if the FedCom never became reality in the form Hanse and Katrina envisioned? What if the clans where stopped at the periphery? What if the new star league never became necessary to battle the clans? What if the Gray Death Legion invaded New Avalon and successfully captured it? What if Sun Tsu never initiated Xin Sheng? I would love to play out all those possibilities and whatever else we or the devs could think of.

So my answer is to forget and shake off everything that is known or established, that was written in some form or the other, and create our own version of the future. Or in short: No!

[Gattling Fenn]

TL;DR

[Crucis Lancer]

Whew, that was a lot of info to digest. I like the idea of paying extra for equipment that my faction doesn't produce, or produces in small quantities. A master list of what each faction pays for mechs/equipment would be nice so players can see what they're getting when they choose a House, otherwise folks will have to hope the Devs follow Canon (ie Davion loves autocannons, Marik favors PPCs). Also a point to consider, when the clans attack will developments like Hanse blackmail..err i mean persuading Marik to supply the Fedcom and Dracs with new mechs and upgrades to fight the clans be taken into account for pricing items?

All in all I like this idea it gives people another reason to think before choosing a House, and thinking is usually a good thing right?