119 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Javelin156, on 05 April 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Its not mechwarrior then. Mechwarrior 2 and 3 did adapt it amazingly. You know why? Because they followed the rules almost to the word from the battletech compendium.

Yes.... the CONSTRUCTION rules. Not the customization rules. Which was a horrible mistake.

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The rules you want are not going to stop people from using crazy mechs.

You clicked my sig link and saw the rules that I want? You not only scanned the words but actually spent the time to understand it?

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I wanna hear your perfect take on what the game should be like???? Sounds like you only want stock mechs running around. BORINGGGGGGG. This is an MMO remember.

I'm betting, that you didn't click my sig link, did you?

Aegis Kleais™, on 05 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Not everyone CARES about what's there. You're too focused on wanting the lab to be just like all other labs HAVE been.

It's fine that you don't care what's there. What's not making any sense to me is why it's skin off of your nose... ???


I don't want the lab to be like all other labs have been. Surely you've seen the post I linked to in my sig? Which I've reprodced multiple times in multiple threads in this forum? It's not "just like" the others have been.

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When I'm in the lab, I'm here to customize my Mech. Since I cannot customize actuators, there's absolutely no logic in having it show up in the lab.

...and what is the rational reason to not show them? They take no space that isn't already taken and they inform newcomers of basic important information.

Garth Erlam, on 05 April 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

MechWarrior 2/3's Mechlab in no way 'followed the rules almost to the word' from BattleTech - they completely disregarded it (for the most part.)

You can argue you want the 2/3 system, but the idea that it's how BattleTech worked is flat-out untrue.

Amen.

Construction is not customization.

Javelin156, on 05 April 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

You have no idea what your talking about.

How would you know this?

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I dont see what the point will be if i cant customize my mech. Its like playing WoW with no gear upgrades. Boring city.

This is a straw man. The devs have not said you can't customize your 'mech.

[Aegis Kleais]

Why not throw tons of information into the Mechlab and bombard the user with an interface that uses up space or shows components which cannot be interacted with?

Because when you optimize any design, you trim the fat. You don't give the person information that isn't needed. You simplify actions and logic processes. The usability coin of phrase is "Don't make me think". When a UI is clean and cut, it feels intuitive and provides you only the functionality you need.

I don't see the logic in being told you have a fixed piece of un-interactive hardware in a set hardpoint. Just remove that reference and show me the space which is available for interacting with.

[Javelin156]

CapperDeluxe, on 05 April 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Somewhat limited customization is not "no customization". There will still likely be hundreds of thousands of different possibilities of configuration with a single mech, just not infinite.

Mechwarrior 4 failed because of terrible gameplay and weapon balance, I think theoretically its MechLab was quite innovative but didn't matter because when you took the config in-game things that should have worked well didn't (for instance medium lasers shouldn't have been the joke they were).

In the tabletop, even though you could rightly create your own mech from the ground up using their record sheets, according to the lore this kind of thing just didn't happen. You had set mechs that were manufactured, and some limited customizations based on those, but it was far from a free form customization that you saw in MW2/3.

Actually they said there will be 12 to 25 mechs at the most on launch. Lol its a joke i hope this isnt right.

[Javelin156]

Pht, on 05 April 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Yes.... the CONSTRUCTION rules. Not the customization rules. Which was a horrible mistake.



You clicked my sig link and saw the rules that I want? You not only scanned the words but actually spent the time to understand it?



I'm betting, that you didn't click my sig link, did you?




It's fine that you don't care what's there. What's not making any sense to me is why it's skin off of your nose... ???


I don't want the lab to be like all other labs have been. Surely you've seen the post I linked to in my sig? Which I've reprodced multiple times in multiple threads in this forum? It's not "just like" the others have been.



...and what is the rational reason to not show them? They take no space that isn't already taken and they inform newcomers of basic important information.



Amen.

Construction is not customization.



How would you know this?



This is a straw man. The devs have not said you can't customize your 'mech.

I know im sorry i know nothing of your work lol.

Im just raging ok, i want it to be like the book and its not and im going to have to live with it. I honestly dont see this being a viable product without customization though. Its what mmos live on. Customization and gear, achievments ect.....

[Pht]

Aegis Kleais™, on 05 April 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Why not throw tons of information into the Mechlab and bombard the user with an interface that uses up space or shows components which cannot be interacted with?

Why not mischaracterize someone else's argument?


... or, a few spaces showning stuff that you don't mess with is not an overload of information.

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Because when you optimize any design, you trim the fat. You don't give the person information that isn't needed. You simplify actions and logic processes.

And as i already pointed out, it is not fat.

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The usability coin of phrase is "Don't make me think".

Why treat people like mental midgets, too stupid to even tie their own shoelaces? I know, why even HAVE an mw video game? After all, you have to think to figure out how to even play a game of "mash the kill all else" button fastest!



When people are treated like they're stupid and never expected to do any mental work, they eventually become just that ... stupid. Like mushrooms, instead of men.

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When a UI is clean and cut, it feels intuitive and provides you only the functionality you need.

So something like these isn't clean?

Is this really about your getting ticked off that a few pixels are shown on a screen that you can't directly manipulate?

Javelin156, on 05 April 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Im just raging ok,

Raging doesn't work in text formats of communication. Good arguments do.

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I honestly dont see this being a viable product without customization though.

They're allowing customization. Did you miss the front page to the website?

Edited by Pht, 05 April 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Pht, on 05 April 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

And as i already pointed out, it is not fat.

It's the worst kind of fat. Utterly useless information. Why not have a dedicated area in the Mechlab that tells the player what the winning lottery numbers were while we're at it? We don't because the information is not needed or necessary to perform acts of our current task: customizing the Mech. Real estate on screen is valuable and cluttering it up with useless information is wasteful.

Pht, on 05 April 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Why treat people like mental midgets, too stupid to even tie their own shoelaces? I know, why even HAVE an mw video game? After all, you have to think to figure out how to even play a game of "mash the kill all else" button fastest!

SIMPLE does not me stupid. Stupid is thinking that SIMPLE means that. Simple means it is not needlessly complex. Complexity directly correlates with comprehension (in that the more complex something is, the longer it takes to comprehend it). Making a UI simple doesn't equate to dumbing it down. It's about optimizations.

Pht, on 05 April 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

When people are treated like they're stupid and never expected to do any mental work, they eventually become just that ... stupid. Like mushrooms, instead of men.

Says the mushroom who thought the below was ANY type of showcase in a good UI.

Pht, on 05 April 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

So something like these isn't clean?

Is this really about your getting ticked off that a few pixels are shown on a screen that you can't directly manipulate?

From a UI standpoint, it's both aesthetically ugly, provides no information and even looks unintuitive. You're fine with it because you're familiar with it. You've overcome its horrible UI and are now familiar with it. Putting something like this in MWO would do little more than leave many players staring at the screen with a blank stare on their face. In other words, you would have FAILED to provide a solution to the Mechlab.

If anything IS "ticking me off", it's that someone who thinks your screenshot here is any semblance of "good UI" thinks that showcasing this somehow proves his point. It's like someone taking a "paint by numbers" painting and expecting it to be considered on par with works by master painters.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I get the feeling that you and Pht are arguing at cross purposes AK. He's concentrating on the detail while you are on about the presentation. Personally I think you both have good points. We also don't know what the UI is going to be as we had diagrams, just like Pht produced. I would like a system based on Pht ideas with your ideas for how it can be displayed to the user.
Or am I totally misunderstanding things again?

[GDL Irishwarrior]

Javelin156, on 05 April 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

I know im sorry i know nothing of your work lol.

Im just raging ok, i want it to be like the book and its not and im going to have to live with it. I honestly dont see this being a viable product without customization though. Its what mmos live on. Customization and gear, achievments ect.....

Alright, let's take one of the most popular MMOs around - World of Warcraft. (Does some quick research to double check my assumptions about WoW's customization system)

Okay, so, the most popular MMO on the market today has a hardpoint-based customization system with limited customization of weapons/equipment. Your class determines what sort of weapons you may use (so, if you are a Mage or whatever, you can't toss your staff and grab a two-handed Claymore - just like you shouldn't be able to put a PPC in a slot that used to house an AC-10). When it comes to gear, meanwhile, you are restricted in where you put it and how much of it you carry - you can only wield one or two weapons at a time, and certainly can't trade in your armor to carry another sword (or wear another helmet, or whatever). The same should go for MWO - we shouldn't be able to pull out jump jets and stick lasers in that spot (unless you feel like firing straight up or down), and vice-versa.

In fact, looking at WoW (again, the MOST POPULAR MMO AROUND), it would seem that we will have MORE customization than that holiest of systems. Like WoW, we have customization of our appearance; however, looking the way we want in MWO won't carry the risk of putting ourselves at a disadvantage because of having to use certain bits of gear. Like WoW, we will be able to customize our weapons; however, we will have MANY more options when it comes to what sort of weapons we use - even a light 'Mech can mount any sort of weapon it likes, provided it has the available hardpoint space. Finally, unlike WoW, tossing weapons, equipment, or armor WILL let us carry more of the others if we have the correct hardpoints available (not because of freeing up space, but because of freeing up available tonnage). So, in some ways, the MWO customization system (AS IS, based on the Mechlab dev blog) will have more freedom of choice than any other game around.

[Pht]

Aegis Kleais™, on 05 April 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

It's the worst kind of fat. Utterly useless information.

It is not utterly useless, as I have already pointed out. Knowing where the actutators are, visually, is useful; simply so you know where to shoot to hit them, and also so you know where they are to put them behind cover.

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Why not have a dedicated area in the Mechlab that tells the player what the winning lottery numbers were while we're at it?

Why not light this thread up with burning straw men arguments?

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We don't because the information is not needed or necessary to perform acts of our current task: customizing the Mech. Real estate on screen is valuable and cluttering it up with useless information is wasteful.

Omnimechs can swap arm actuators, we will eventually have omnimechs in the game, so even at that level, it is not useless information. As for screen real-estate, it wastes none, unless you want a 'mechlab which does not show the mech or the general layout of where the weapons and equipment slots are at all.

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SIMPLE does not me stupid. Stupid is thinking that SIMPLE means that.

Could stupid also be posting "don't make me think" when you really meant "simple," and than expecting people to make an invalid conclusion to get from one to the other?

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Says the mushroom who thought the below was ANY type of showcase in a good UI.

Only as far as the slot layouts, which is all they were intended to represent.

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You're fine with it because you're familiar with it.

You're now a mind reader, such that you can validly know this?

Edited by Pht, 05 April 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

lol. Pht, You obviously don't know a damned thing about UI. And this sad attempt at quoting every other syllable and then over analyzing it while grabbing at straws that don't exist has lost all entertainment value. I just can't be bothered any further to explain usability to someone who, though entitled to their opinion, feels that debauchery suffices as a legitimate solution to the Mechlab.

I'm glad there are professionals in charge of the UI and not people like yourselves who are afraid to let 20 year old Access 1997-looking form UI rest once and for all.

You may have a great understanding of the mechanics of Mechs; your claim to fame post shows that; but you don't know a DAMN thing about usability. Salute.

[wwiiogre]

Geesh Pht and Aegis,

Realize what the devs showed is not what its gonna be, they said so in the post, multiple times. Aegis you have yet to show what your UI would look like. Please do. Then it would be possible for anyone to compare and contrast to what you like and don't like. I appreciate a really intuitive interface. I also don't mind function over fluff. Since the UI isn't out yet, exactly what are you two having an argument about exactly?

Relax brothers, step back.

chris

[Javelin156]

GDL Irishwarrior, on 05 April 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Alright, let's take one of the most popular MMOs around - World of Warcraft. (Does some quick research to double check my assumptions about WoW's customization system)

Okay, so, the most popular MMO on the market today has a hardpoint-based customization system with limited customization of weapons/equipment. Your class determines what sort of weapons you may use (so, if you are a Mage or whatever, you can't toss your staff and grab a two-handed Claymore - just like you shouldn't be able to put a PPC in a slot that used to house an AC-10). When it comes to gear, meanwhile, you are restricted in where you put it and how much of it you carry - you can only wield one or two weapons at a time, and certainly can't trade in your armor to carry another sword (or wear another helmet, or whatever). The same should go for MWO - we shouldn't be able to pull out jump jets and stick lasers in that spot (unless you feel like firing straight up or down), and vice-versa.

In fact, looking at WoW (again, the MOST POPULAR MMO AROUND), it would seem that we will have MORE customization than that holiest of systems. Like WoW, we have customization of our appearance; however, looking the way we want in MWO won't carry the risk of putting ourselves at a disadvantage because of having to use certain bits of gear. Like WoW, we will be able to customize our weapons; however, we will have MANY more options when it comes to what sort of weapons we use - even a light 'Mech can mount any sort of weapon it likes, provided it has the available hardpoint space. Finally, unlike WoW, tossing weapons, equipment, or armor WILL let us carry more of the others if we have the correct hardpoints available (not because of freeing up space, but because of freeing up available tonnage). So, in some ways, the MWO customization system (AS IS, based on the Mechlab dev blog) will have more freedom of choice than any other game around.

Wow so if i have a ppc i can swap it out for 3 lasers.... wowwwwwwww such great customization. If i have an ultra ac 20 i can swap it out for what....wait... 2 ultra ac 5's. WOOOOOOOO GREAT CUSTOMIZATION!!! Its BS. We got a bunch of derps designing the game.

Like i said before you got the battletech compendium. Why arent they just converting it over. I hope they just take customization out of the game because i want nothing to do with there idea of swapping weapons out. Each mech is essentially a shell and i should beable to put whatever the heck i want inside of it. Tonnage and C-bills should delegate everything.

The point with WoW is they have more customization options than you can even imagine. So much selection for gear ect....

You will have very limited selection with what they are selling us. With only a few mechs in the game its just going to come down to who has the atlas and so on. DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP.... even if you had 100 mechs people are going to just buy the special one. Yes there are boat variants of real mechs... Yes there are laser Variants of real mechs. People will just buy the individual mech to find the way they want to play.

With the real rules i could atleast hulk out a light mech to actually do something useful. It might be a glass cannon but i can do it atleast.

IM RAGING$@$@

i have to add to this. With what the devs are planning, say you have 1 ppc in your arm which is part of that module. You can only pull it out and in theory there are very few laser weapons i can put there. Its pretty pointless to put anything but what you had there. Now if i could move around the ferro fibrous armor or endo steel into other places and put more lasers there it would be viable. But you cant.

Sorry if i sound ignorant but seriously you are screwing yourself with what you think is the better system. Seriously just reinstall mw3 or 4 on your puter and play that. If the devs dont add somekind of decent customization that is balanced this game will be a joke.

Edited by Javelin156, 05 April 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Stone Profit]

Dude, this thread got dragged under a bridge a while ago. It seems to me that certain parties are upset that the game isn't exactly what they feel it should be, and others (such as Pht) who accept this fact and attempt to help others understand. However, even the greatest of minds cannot open one which is closed. I would like to get back to the topic of the function of mechlab, rather than an argument about a UI which we have not even seen yet.

[Arnold Carns]

Javelin156, on 05 April 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

You have no idea what your talking about...

It's more likely you have no idea what you are talking about!
The Construction Rules of the TT were just that: optional rules to let the players make up their own NEW 'Mech designs, not to customize existant 'Mechs and their variants first place. Even if you could use them to modify Canon-BattleMechs and their respective variants.
You can look it up in every of the core rulebooks which have been published over the years. It always says CONSTRUCTION RULES.

So you don't like the MechLab which will be brought in by the devs to let you customize your 'Mechs instead being restricted to official designs? And thats why you don't want to play MW:O? Guess what, I'm really sure that very few will miss you! Bye then and have a nice one!

[Javelin156]

Arnold Carns, on 05 April 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

It's more likely you have no idea what you are talking about!
The Construction Rules of the TT were just that: optional rules to let the players make up their own NEW 'Mech designs, not to customize existant 'Mechs and their variants first place. Even if you could use them to modify Canon-BattleMechs and their respective variants.
You can look it up in every of the core rulebooks which have been published over the years. It always says CONSTRUCTION RULES.

So you don't like the MechLab which will be brought in by the devs to let you customize your 'Mechs instead being restricted to official designs? And thats why you don't want to play MW:O? Guess what, I'm really sure that very few will miss you! Bye then and have a nice one!

Construction, customization, its all the same thing. There is a rule book for a reason. It should be followed by the book. I want to know what is so bad about using the real rules in a pc gaming environment? I keep explaining, OVER AND OVER AND OVER.... you can't just design your own mech right away. It cost a TON of c-bills and time. Using stock mechs would be the sensible route for most players. Especially people that dont have alot of time to invest in the game.

I hear people freaking out over people making frankenmechs. News flash you dont even have to make them, they exist as real mechs. Most clan mechs are frankenmechs. After 3050 you have innersphere frankenmechs that tried to copy there clan competetion.

Whats going to happen, are we going to have only a few mechs to choose from since everyone is SOOO concerned they are going to get owned by some people that can actually THINK and DESIGN a nicely made mech. If this game is trully based on skill like the DEVS are saying the customization shouldnt even be an issue.


Is it going to be illegal to alpha on someones leg and blow it off?? I mean what are people afraid of???
I am going to do this if i make my own mech or use a stock mech.

Edited by Javelin156, 05 April 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[carl kerensky]

Javelin156, on 05 April 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Actually they said there will be 12 to 25 mechs at the most on launch. Lol its a joke i hope this isnt right.

You have NO clue what goes into the construction of these mechs. None. You think it takes days to churn out a mech of this quality....meaning building , texturing and rigging specific animations for each mech. You think this game will fail or be boring? I believe the opposite for the mere fact of these devs doing just the opposite of what you want to happen. Man I'm glad there in charge of things. Whew
Ck

[Javelin156]

I hope your right. It better be good or i wont give them my money.

Im not attacking the artists here. The graphics look pretty amazing. Its just the mechlab im concerned with. It is only the most important part of the game.

Needless to say if they dont have enough mechs and minimal customization its going to get boring quick. You cant deny that.

[wwiiogre]

Yes Javelin, I can and do deny it. Since they are talking around 12 mechs with variants plus mech lab. So lets see 12 to the 5th power then times mech lab modifications. Near limitless ability to modify. Note I said modify not rebuild. Since you should never be allowed to do that. It really isn't in canon. Some min/maxers have always done it, but that doesn't make it right.

If you find the game boring cause you can't do what you want, I am sorry for you. The mech lab is a tool, the game is the playing part. I really do not understand your style of argument. It sounds to me like you are saying, If I don't get exactly what I want from this free game that will cost me nothing, I am not gonna play! I hope I am completely misunderstanding you. Just relax and take a breath the game isn't even out yet. The Dev's are sharing their ideas with us to hopefully allow them to make an amazing game. I am willing to wait instead of beating them up and others on the forum with angry arguments about what is and isn't in a game that isn't out yet.

chris

[Aegis Kleais]

wwiiogre, on 05 April 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Geesh Pht and Aegis,

Realize what the devs showed is not what its gonna be, they said so in the post, multiple times. Aegis you have yet to show what your UI would look like. Please do. Then it would be possible for anyone to compare and contrast to what you like and don't like. I appreciate a really intuitive interface. I also don't mind function over fluff. Since the UI isn't out yet, exactly what are you two having an argument about exactly?

Relax brothers, step back.

chris

Fluff isn't good UI. Functionality is an element of good UI. Interactivity incorporates the functionality of the UI and fluff has no part in that. I also never stated I was going to provide a UI, I've merely been indicating which principles of UI are being violated.

UI is comprised of guidelines, rather than rules, since every person is different and no 1 solution works best for everyone. Neither of us took their obvious mockup as final either, (I was commenting on the 'traditional' drastically simplified circa-1980's looking UI that was posted) so I'm not sure where you got those ideas.

[wwiiogre]

Aegis,

They havn't shown us the UI yet, they have shown us ideas. Nothing is set in stone. I myself want the actuators listed because in the game I hope they build, the actuators will have a reason for being there and if you take one out then you will suffer a penalty if you try to use that appendage for what the actuator was designed for. Example, not having a hand actuator means it should be harder and longer to get up from being knocked prone, it should be harder to hit with a melee attack and if a mission calls for something being picked up or retrieved (I know we don't know what kind of missions there will be, but assume it could be capture x widget and bring it back) then a mech without a hand would not be able to retrieve the object. Also, while Mobile Field Base are not available during this time frame, you can reload ammo on another mech if you have hand actuators, takes 50 seconds per ton to reload in the field with a percent chance you cause a catastrophic explosion. Now, in a mech bay, if any of these rules will ever be in the game, then the need for them to be part of the UI would seem prudent as while it may not be needed at launch, it may be needed in the future for other applications. Since they are building from scratch it is best to have it there and disable it until needed than to have to write new code in to try to tack on later. Just saying.

Chris