10 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

One thing that's definitely tricky to balance in a MechWarrior game are standard Autocannons. While high-caliber Ultra Autocannons and LBX have their purpose in the game, one thing that's very difficult to make attractive are the smaller, standard Autocannons. They're just too heavy to be attractive compared to their missile and energy brethren.

However, in the Table Top game, there was something that showed up that helped a lot: Alternate ammunition types for ACs: Armor-Piercing, Flechette, Incendiary and Precision. While these are the canon ammo types, I wouldn't mind the developers taking liberties with them to make them attractive and viable in a first person environment (such as Precision rounds traveling faster, reducing lead time.) These ammunition types have trade-offs of reducing ammo capacity and higher costs.

Anyway the technical details and such is something that'd be entirely in the dev's court, as is every gameplay decision, but I do think I'd suggest that they be considered - in particular if T2 technology becomes common place later, to leave a niche for lower grade equipment. I think it'd be a neat layer of customization if a player can decide to drop with standard AC/10 ammo on their Centurion, or sacrifice half their ammunition in favor of a greater chance to pierce armor and score critical hits - it'd definitely add flavor and a risk/reward mechanic.

[Larry Headrick]

Yes because it is canon.

^ This should be on the pole.
I voted yes because it was in the books, and the tabble top, for the time pierod. Prices would vary depending on type.

[Arnold Carns]

Victor Morson, on 02 March 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

One thing that's definitely tricky to balance in a MechWarrior game are standard Autocannons. While high-caliber Ultra Autocannons and LBX have their purpose in the game, one thing that's very difficult to make attractive are the smaller, standard Autocannons. They're just too heavy to be attractive compared to their missile and energy brethren.

However, in the Table Top game, there was something that showed up that helped a lot: Alternate ammunition types for ACs: Armor-Piercing, Flechette, Incendiary and Precision. While these are the canon ammo types, I wouldn't mind the developers taking liberties with them to make them attractive and viable in a first person environment (such as Precision rounds traveling faster, reducing lead time.) These ammunition types have trade-offs of reducing ammo capacity and higher costs.

Anyway the technical details and such is something that'd be entirely in the dev's court, as is every gameplay decision, but I do think I'd suggest that they be considered - in particular if T2 technology becomes common place later, to leave a niche for lower grade equipment. I think it'd be a neat layer of customization if a player can decide to drop with standard AC/10 ammo on their Centurion, or sacrifice half their ammunition in favor of a greater chance to pierce armor and score critical hits - it'd definitely add flavor and a risk/reward mechanic.

Nice idea but...:

Armor-Piercing ammunition is used solely in standard and light autocannons. It was first prototyped by the Federated Suns in 3053, with full production beginning in 3059. AP ammo uses advanced ballistics materials and improved anti-armor warheads, allowing them to punch through otherwise fresh armor and damage internal systems. However, their increased weight negatively affects the weapon's accuracy and allows for less ammunition to be stored.

Flechette ammunition is a special munition that can be used by standard autocannons. Engineered to be effective against conventional infantry, it is composed of metal fragments delivered in a shotgun-like blast instead of explosive shells. Introduced by the Federated Suns in 3055 to improve the effectiveness of their autocannon, the usage of flechette munitions reinforces the importance of autocannons to that nation.

Precision ammunition can be used in standard autocannons and their lighter cousins. Scientists from the Federated Suns managed to modify autocannon ammunition to accommodate a gyrojet shell that can correct its course in mid-flight, but the course correction system increased the mass of each shell. Debuting in 3062, precision ammo soon found its way into the armies of other nations.
...
It's 3049. You'd have to wait a bit to see/use them!

[TheRulesLawyer]

Not time for them yet, but its one liberty I'd like to see with the timeline or else many weapons will just be left behind.

[Dlardrageth]

I can haz nuclear grenades for my AC20 to flatten whole city blocks in one shot, pleeeeze?

[Strum Wealh]

Strum Wealh, on 24 December 2011 - 12:59 PM, said:

The standard ACs (and their lightweight cousins, canonically due in the late 3050s) normally fire high-explosive armor-piercing (HEAP) shells, while also having access to a variety of special munitions (though, most of those don't canonically appear until the mid-to-late 3050s).

• Armor-piercing (AP) munitions (as distinct from the "standard" (HEAP) munitions) were prototyped by the FedSuns in 3053, and went into production in 3059.
  
• Caseless munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3055.
  
• Flak munitions were produced in 2310 for anti-air duty and have been available since, but were only occasionally popular (due to the superior anti-'Mech capabilities of the similar cluster rounds used by the LB-X series... when they were in production and available).
  
• Flechette munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3055.
  
• Precision munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3062.
  
• Tracer munitions were produced in 2300 and have been available since.

What would be canonically available at the game's start point are: Standard (HEAP), Flak, and Tracer rounds.

It should be noted at the links above that while each of the special munitions offers a unique advantage or capability (increased damage or storage or effectiveness against certain types of targets), each also comes with a disadvantage (increased likelihood of jamming, reduction in ammo capacity or precision) as well.

Canonically, neither LB-X nor Ultra autocannons can use special munitions (nor can the Rotary or Hyper-Velocity ACs).

The LB-X ACs can fire both standard (HEAP) and specialized (LB-X only) cluster rounds at slightly longer ranges than standard ACs, at the cost of having to carry both and the time needed to switch the ammo feeds from one to the other.

The Ultra ACs fire standard (HEAP) rounds, and can be fired at double the standard ACs' rate-of-fire (two rounds per salvo) at the cost of increased ammo consumption and heat build-up, reduced accuracy, and increased risk of jamming the weapon, or fire at the standard ROF (and act as essentially a slightly longer-ranged version of a standard AC).

(Note the date/time-stamp on the above post quotation... the search function is useful! )

What's (canonically) available for Standard ACs at the game's start point (3049) are standard (HEAP) shells, flak shells, incendiary shells (more effective against infantry, can set terrain objects (trees, buildings, etc) on fire, otherwise functions like standard shells), and tracer shells.

Also, the alternate/special munitions (when they canonically appear) and munitions for non-standard ACs are also (canonically) more expensive:
AC-2 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 1,000 c-bills per ton
AC-5 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 4,500 c-bills per ton
AC-10 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 6,000 c-bills per ton
AC-20 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 10,000 c-bills per ton

versus

Armor-Piercing ammunition: 4x price of standard (HEAP) ammunition
Flechette ammunition: 1.5x price of standard (HEAP) ammunition
Incendiary ammunition: 2x price of standard (HEAP) ammunition
Precision ammunition: 6x price of standard (HEAP) ammunition

LB-X AC-2 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 2,000 c-bills per ton
LB-X AC-5 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 9,000 c-bills per ton
LB-X AC-10 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 12,000 c-bills per ton
LB-X AC-20 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 20,000 c-bills per ton

LB-X AC-2 cluster ammunition: 3,300 c-bills per ton
LB-X AC-5 cluster ammunition: 15,000 c-bills per ton
LB-X AC-10 cluster ammunition: 20,000 c-bills per ton
LB-X AC-20 cluster ammunition: 34,000 c-bills per ton

Ultra AC-2 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 1,000 c-bills per ton
Ultra AC-5 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 9,000 c-bills per ton
Ultra AC-10 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 12,000 c-bills per ton
Ultra AC-20 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 20,000 c-bills per ton

Rotary AC-2 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 3,000 c-bills per ton
Rotary AC-5 standard (HEAP) ammunition: 12,000 c-bills per ton

The prices listed above come from the CBT Master Rules cost table on page 151.
There are no prices listed for flak or tracer shells (and no mention of either in Total Warfare or TechManual), so I would imagine that they are identical to those of standard (HEAP) shells.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 04 March 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[TimberJon]

I'm liking HEAP ammo. But if it is too powerful, they would need to dumb it's power down. If it is lowered too much... then it wouldn't be worth adding it. How do you get balance with an alternate ammo type when we are trying to gain an Uber ammo type for maximum devastation. If My AC-10 spits regular slugs at another enemy of the same tonnage, I want us to hash it out for several minutes until someone takes critical damage. I don't want to sever arms/legs and shred reactors/gyros in a salvo or two with HEAP ammo. I'd rather have a challenge and work hard at my kills.

Edited by TimberJon, 04 March 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

TimberJon, on 04 March 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I'm liking HEAP ammo. But if it is too powerful, they would need to dumb it's power down. If it is lowered too much... then it wouldn't be worth adding it. How do you get balance with an alternate ammo type when we are trying to gain an Uber ammo type for maximum devastation. If My AC-10 spits regular slugs at another enemy of the same tonnage, I want us to hash it out for several minutes until someone takes critical damage. I don't want to sever arms/legs and shred reactors/gyros in a salvo or two with HEAP ammo. I'd rather have a challenge and work hard at my kills.

HEAP (high-explosive, armor-piercing) ammo is the "regular" ammo.

ACs fire gunpowder-propelled shells (payload-carrying ballistic projectiles, including the "shot-shells" used by LB-X ACs).
Gauss Rifles (large, weaponized coilguns) use powerful electromagnetic fields to fire ferro-magnetic slugs (solid ballistic projectiles).
Machine Guns fire conventional gunpowder-propelled bullets (ballistic projectiles that may be solid or carry a small (in comparison to their size) payload).

[Fox5859]

id like this incidary rounds to heat things up

[TimberJon]

Strum Wealh, on 04 March 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

HEAP (high-explosive, armor-piercing) ammo is the "regular" ammo.

ACs fire gunpowder-propelled shells (payload-carrying ballistic projectiles, including the "shot-shells" used by LB-X ACs).
Gauss Rifles (large, weaponized coilguns) use powerful electromagnetic fields to fire ferro-magnetic slugs (solid ballistic projectiles).
Machine Guns fire conventional gunpowder-propelled bullets (ballistic projectiles that may be solid or carry a small (in comparison to their size) payload).

Oops I didn't know that. I should know that but I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the books. I only noticed the the higher caliber UAC's in MW3 appeared to have explosive warheads. Sadly... I never played the TT game but I'm looking to buy a box set and get into gear.

[Victor Morson]

TimberJon, on 09 March 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Oops I didn't know that. I should know that but I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the books. I only noticed the the higher caliber UAC's in MW3 appeared to have explosive warheads. Sadly... I never played the TT game but I'm looking to buy a box set and get into gear.

A great way to start is with Megamek, which automates a TON of dice rolling and allows you run a ton of advanced rules that would otherwise take hours.

In fact, I highly recommend you buy some source books and then use them with Megamek to start. Honestly, even in a table top environment, mimic'ing the game onto a netbook running the program (even if you're moving the pieces around on the board) will likely save you a lot of time and make games flow better. Just a heads up for a new player.