239 replies to this topic

[Karyudo ds]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 November 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Face it, this will happen. do not kid yourself.

Well mathematics and intelligent design says you're probably wrong but I believe you anyway because science is for nerds.

[Rejarial Galatan]

laws of probability make it a near certainty that if they add it, unless very specific things happen, being FORCED into a fight with those of the opposing POV WILL happen. ONLY ways to avoid it:

do not add it in in the first place. solves the issue before it IS an issue.
ALL SOURCE code is kept at PGI, with 0 on OUR computers, ANY code on our computers regarding 3rd Person POV will allow for at some point, hacking the system to make it a real issue.
Second Set of Servers with a COMPLETE second Community Warfare and Meta game that is INCOMPATIBLE with the other and forces a crash if you have a differing POV than the server's design.

IF they refuse to segregate it into the above, then, well, its gonna break the game like an elephant on a house of cards.

[Karyudo ds]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 November 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

laws of probability make it a near certainty that if they add it, unless very specific things happen, being FORCED into a fight with those of the opposing POV WILL happen.

Really? Because I find that EXTREMELY unlikely, when you started another post about this mentioning a poll with several thousand players not interested in the option, but you're tell me that it's probable that I wont be able to find 8-12 of them? What sort of "laws of probability" are we talking about here?

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 November 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

...ANY code on our computers regarding 3rd Person POV will allow for at some point...

That highly depends on how really.

[Rejarial Galatan]

IF we are not divided into separate and incompatible servers for each respective view, then, guess what, no matter what you choose: use it or not, you end up facing BOTH, period, it is unavoidable. Once the code is there, it can be found, and turned against itself. Face it, if say the US government couldnt prevent its own self from being hacked, and they have nearly UNLIMITED RESOURCES, what chance does PGI have to stop it from happening? NONE. They do not want to divide the players, but that is exactly what they MUST do if they enforce the claim: you will not be forced to fight against the POV you do not wish to see. That then breaks the Meta game and Community warfare, but, again, do re-read my monster long post, as again, this is ALL explained in it.

[Karyudo ds]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 November 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

...do re-read my monster long post, as again, this is ALL explained in it.

Well that post was good for a laugh, glad to know Iranian hackers are after little ol MWO!

Hilarity aside though, maybe you should "Face it", your "facts" are based on data that is non-existant. Unless you have some sort of magic inside source (that possibly knows things PGI has yet to figure out themselves oddly...) you have absolutely no idea how any of this will work and are denying that your magical poll reference is valid statistically. Why are you even arguing over POV crowds without any clue as to how spread out they can even be anyway?

You're worried about hackers once a 3rd person view is in? Well since I have to explain it there's a 100% chance there's already code in the game to handle cameras. That is literally how you see ANYTHING. If someone wanted to mess with you view they would have already attached your camera to your mechs left foot and laughed themselves dead over it. Having the option could make it a little easier to exploit but I would be more worried about exploiters dropping me into matches with no weapons in a Commando running a 100XL. Oh and also it's a "trial" mech somehow as well so no XP either.

[Rejarial Galatan]

<groans> dude, I know from experience that if it can happen, it will happen. quit fooling yourself into thinking that, just because it has NOT happened, does NOT mean it will never happen. Hell, remember back in October, a certain storm that rampaged across the NE section of the US? Up until that moment, no storm in the history of recorded storms made a LEFT HAND TURN onto the East Coast of the US. Guess what, it happened. OR, we have yet to see an EF6 Tornado hit the planet, but, rest assured one day, it WILL happen. But Rej, you say, there IS no EF6 rating on the Enhanced Fujita scale, so obviously you are trolling. I say: Just because we have not seen a Tornado exceed 316MPH in the vortex, does NOT mean it cannot happen. Once this planet see's the right conditions, it WILL happen. Even the San Andreas fault line is capable of producing a 9.0+ earthquake. So, even hackers will find away to break the code. hell, who is to say it isnt happening now, and being written off as net code errors or other errant bugs from beta?

[Karyudo ds]

Oh I'm 100% sure there are people trying to hack the game in various ways. That's why you have people to try and keep tabs on that, every online game has this. It's likely you'll play at least one game where a hack is in play but I'm also pretty sure there's worse things they could do beyond lock you view and they wont need a "3rd person option" to actually do it. I know if I wanted to troll you I would do something more interesting like the Commando. Assuming the server could be tricked like that. I don't know entirely how everything is communicated.

Edited by Karyudo ds, 30 November 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Kary look at the larger picture, that, if they segregate the 2 view points, they divide the player base. well, they are against that. Then, they say: it will be an option, WELL, okay, fine what ever, I click: NO or uncheck it or w/e it takes to NOT use it. Okay, now what? I load a match... hmm he targeted me around that corner... blasted 3rd POV. THIS is if they do not give 2 incompatible servers for the 2 views. To NOT make a player such as my self, who does NOT want a bloody thing to do with the arcade camera, you MUST divide the player base and provide 2 completely incompatible servers that crash you out if you use the incompatible POV. Which, then divides the player base. ALSO, if you want to NOT break the Community Warfare and Meta Game things, they MUST divide us into 2 incompatible servers as stated above, which, again, divides the community, which they claim they dont want.

Oh, and IF they do not do this, there is no way to ensure that I can take a team and help capture every planet that borders my factions territory, because at some point, a target world will be defended by 3rd POV players only. See how this goes bad and fast?

[Karyudo ds]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 November 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Oh, and IF they do not do this, there is no way to ensure that I can take a team and help capture every planet that borders my factions territory, because at some point, a target world will be defended by 3rd POV players only. See how this goes bad and fast?

Not mathematically no.

I'll play your game sir. If there were 6 planets how likely do you think this would ever happen? One out of 6 ONLY being attacked/defended by 3rd person players? How do they even capture it without a battle? Is that allowed?

I'm going to guess there will be more than 6 planets but I do remember reading that the idea was that your factions attacks would in the beginning be 100% automated and later player leaders might get the power (unless that's changed of course). By that system you wouldn't be able to simply go out and capture every planet on your border anyway, not freely. You would be funneled into a few choices at a time so that your 3rd person apocalypse wouldn't happen. Lower population, fewer active planets.

Worse cast scenario? The population is sooooooo low that in order to do this you literally only have one active planet per faction. You should still be good.

Of course like some of what you're claiming I don't know 100% that this will be how they do it but it's really the only logical way to handle Battletech fiction the way they want to and it supports the 3rd person group as their own sub group if needed.

Being able to shoot around walls like that by the is just bad design. I'm not sure Mechwarrior could easily step around it but in PS2 having the option is rarely helpful in combat.

Edit: Not seeing the thread mentioning this system but it's in the PC Gamer article.

Edited by Karyudo ds, 30 November 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Cattra Kell]

Whats going on in this thre- what...

No seriously, this is super off topic now. Please, if you are going to discuss 3rd person, make sure to take it to the proper section on the forums. As for the concerns over 3rd person vs 1st person in the metagame, I thought this was already established when they stated that the meta game content would be locked 1st person only. ONLY. Meaning anyone wanting to play the meta-game would be 1st person vs 1st person. The 3rd person is an entire different gametype and completely optional and it has been established that 1st person users will not have to fight those using 3rd person.

Please, re-listen carefully to the podcasts, information is stated in it.

[Inconspicuous]

Cattra Kell, on 30 November 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Whats going on in this thre- what...

No seriously, this is super off topic now. Please, if you are going to discuss 3rd person, make sure to take it to the proper section on the forums. As for the concerns over 3rd person vs 1st person in the metagame, I thought this was already established when they stated that the meta game content would be locked 1st person only. ONLY. Meaning anyone wanting to play the meta-game would be 1st person vs 1st person. The 3rd person is an entire different gametype and completely optional and it has been established that 1st person users will not have to fight those using 3rd person.

Please, re-listen carefully to the podcasts, information is stated in it.

OK, I listened to it again and Russ said he wants 3rd person to grow the game...

He says we could almost look at 3rd person as almost a training environment.

He acknowledges 3pv gives a SA to players and suggests that they may split the cues and then the podcast guys cut him off. (about 26:00)

Then Bombadil trys to put words into Russ' mouth (by re-iterating sort of) regarding 3pv which Russ never confirms.

Then together the NGNG guys dismiss the concerns and dismiss criticisms of 3pv.

So no, I never heard Russ say that at all.

Please point to the time in the podcast where Russ says that because I don't hear Russ say that at all, I do hear the NGNG guys say it...

Russ says they have to make sure there is no gameplay advantage to using 3pv and that 1pv guys will like it too (doesn't really sound like seperated cues to me).

[Cattra Kell]

Mechs devs and beer #2, time: 28:30 -> 31:00
http://nogutsnogalax...2-russ-bullock/

Quoted from 29:55:
"... start popping into first person when they want to start taking, you know, start experiencing advanced aspects of the game like, like actual mercenary aspects like community warfare aspects, then they use first person only when they get into those situations..." - Russ

Edited by Cattra Kell, 01 December 2012 - 04:39 AM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Cattra Kell, on 01 December 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

Mechs devs and beer #2, time: 28:30 -> 31:00
http://nogutsnogalax...2-russ-bullock/

Quoted from 29:55:
"... start popping into first person when they want to start taking, you know, start experiencing advanced aspects of the game like, like actual mercenary aspects like community warfare aspects, then they use first person only when they get into those situations..." - Russ

Russ is 100% DREAMING. once you open pandora's box, you cannot shut it. the moment you let them play in 3rd person, get used to it, they will never go back. unless Russ is hiding something MAJOR from us, like a totally viable down loadable SINGLE player game that is similar to THIS, and has it as an option, but THIS retains 100% first person only, then, MAYBE we can calm down, otherwise, again, Russ is living a dream on this one.

[Karyudo ds]

Cattra Kell, on 30 November 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

The 3rd person is an entire different gametype and completely optional and it has been established that 1st person users will not have to fight those using 3rd person.

Please, re-listen carefully to the podcasts, information is stated in it.

I think I've only caught one so far actually, but I think it was that one. Must have missed that. The way the PC Gamer article was worded it certainly sounded like 3rd person battles could be fit in unnoticed but if it's not allowed there that works. Reminds me of MW4, it was allowed but most leagues were a no go on it.

Thanks!

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Russ is 100% DREAMING. once you open pandora's box, you cannot shut it. the moment you let them play in 3rd person, get used to it, they will never go back.

I think not letting the use of 3rd person in CW would indeed be shutting the box. If that's how they're doing it why are you even still complaining? You wouldn't play people using it.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Karyudo ds, on 01 December 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I think I've only caught one so far actually, but I think it was that one. Must have missed that. The way the PC Gamer article was worded it certainly sounded like 3rd person battles could be fit in unnoticed but if it's not allowed there that works. Reminds me of MW4, it was allowed but most leagues were a no go on it.

Thanks!



I think not letting the use of 3rd person in CW would indeed be shutting the box. If that's how they're doing it why are you even still complaining? You wouldn't play people using it.

unless they make a stand alone campaign that you can play away from the Community Warfare/Meta Game, how can they FORCE players to NOT make use of a camera that gives you an artifical edge over raw skill? They would need 2 mutually exclusive and completely INCOMPATIBLE servers that FORCE you to crash if you use that servers NON Camera selection, say it is a 3rd person only, and you try to use First, you DC and vice versa for the other server. But, they did not say they are doing that. if they did, show me the proof please and I will instantly go silent. till then, there is no way to NOT divide us permanently when 3rd is put in. Oh, and if they are going to THAT sort of trouble, then just make it a bloody tutorial they can play, then give 0 options for views aside from FIRST PERSON ONLY in the REAL servers.

[von Pilsner]

I doubt that 3pv will be done in a way that does not give a SA... I can not imagine players would be happy with mechs appearing out of thin air or not seeing the TAG hitting their backside.

That said, I fear it will turn into a mixed pv mode where anything goes (because Russ mentions how much 1pv folks will love the 3pv view, which would not make any sense with seperated cues...), I hope I am very wrong.

And if they really do seperate the cues it's gonna mess up playing with the guys I like playing with as the POV will split us up into 2 groups.

Oh well, guess it's wait and see.... Hopefully they have some great ideas to impliment 3pv without messing up the gameplay for part of their playerbase.

[Cattra Kell]

http://www.nogutsnogalaxy.net
NGNG #52: Russ Bullock

http://nogutsnogalax...2-russ-bullock/



In this episode, the crew chat with Piranha Games President Russ Bullock (Can you say 3rd-person anyone?), and discuss MechWarrior: Online, MechWarrior: Tactics, MechWarrior: Living Legends, and BattleTech.

00:05:42 News
00:12:57 ‘Mech of the Week: Hatchetman
00:19:45 Special Guest: Russ Bullock, President @ Piranha Games
00:37:09 Community Questions/Live Questions
01:11:06 MechWarrior: Online
01:22:04 MechWarrior: Tactics
01:23:17 BattleTech
01:24:59 MechWarrior: Living Legends

This episode is brought to you by the Marik Gunfighter Alliance, Kaos Legion, and Windborne Highlanders!

Looking for a local tabletop game in the Amarillo, Texas area? The Table’s Edge Comics and Games, Georgia St. Ste. 131, Amarillo, TX. Wednesday evenings and weekends, open to vets and those wanting to learn to play. Contact Brandon @ azrael@suddenlink.net

Near Fairborn, Ohio? Bookery Fantasy, Fairborn, OH. CBT games twice a month, usually start at 12:30pm on Saturdays. Contact Jim Topa @ the.godfather@ameritech.net

Featuring the voice talents of George Ledoux.

Other links mentioned on the show:

In The Face
Mecha Zone (Enter Code “GUTS” And Get 20% OFF! – Thanks Dave!)
Critical Hits Comic
Community Spotlight: Max Fightmaster
Got a Community Spotlight? Send it to: spotlight@nogutsnogalaxy.net
Got a Local Game? Let us know!: localgames@nogutsnogalaxy.net
‘Mech of the Week: Hatchetman
MWO: Weekly Screenshot #24
Amazon.com Link (Help Support NGNG this Holiday Season!)
Check Out The Cataphract!
MWO: Weekly Screenshot #25
MWO: Regarding 3rd-Person
MWO: Ask The Devs #25
MWO: Nov. 27th Patch Notes
MWO: Map Sizes – What People Want
MWO: Regarding DirectX11
MWO: Weapon Balancing
MWO: 3rd-Person Outrage
MWO: Official 3rd-Person Discussion Thread
MWT: Dev Intro to Card Types – Core Tech
MWT: Community Moderators Introduction
MWT: Ask A Dev Thread
BattleTech: Getting Started!
BattleTech: Reading Material!
NGNG on Facebook
NGNG on Twitter

[Daekar]

Odd place to debate things...

Anyway, just wanted to say I've been enjoying the podcast enormously! My only complaint is that the live broadcast happens when I'm at work and can't use TS3 :-( Can you poke Mr. Editor with an Urbanmech and make him upload the recorded version faster?

[Cattra Kell]

Daekar, on 07 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Odd place to debate things...

Anyway, just wanted to say I've been enjoying the podcast enormously! My only complaint is that the live broadcast happens when I'm at work and can't use TS3 :-( Can you poke Mr. Editor with an Urbanmech and make him upload the recorded version faster?

We are actually considering this but just wondering how to do it. We have floated the idea of posting the raw recordings quickly after the show and then post the edited final production quality version (the same as the ones we have always been posting) out later.

[Cattra Kell]

http://www.nogutsnogalaxy.net

‘Mechs, Devs, & Beer #4: Nikolai “Niko Snow” Lubkiewicz & Garth Erlam

http://nogutsnogalax...cz-garth-erlam/

In this episode, Phil and Daeron welcome Nikolai “Niko Snow” Lubkiewicz from Infinite Game Publishing, as well as Garth Erlam from Piranha Games. They discuss MechWarrior: Online, their roles in the community, take questions from the live studio audience, and lots more! Unit! This episode is brought to you by the Windborne Highlanders!