64 replies to this topic

[Thorn Hallis]

You should see the Clans as the first expansion pack for MWO. And no developer gives any information about expansion packs when the original game isn't even released.

[CCC Dober]

If that is true, the game changes completely after one year when the Clans pop up?
Imagine that you're a diehard IS fan and lay down some money to enjoy the game with a level playing field. One year later you have to suck it up when the Clans come knocking and ride your 4$$ with their I-can-win Mechs. It sure isn't P2W, but it comes very close, especially when it's paid content we are looking at. This may happen when Clans are added as an afterthought with an expansion pack. I'm not sure I like this implication, especially not because I was actually looking forward to see Clans and IS balanced and able to fight each other from day one and skill being the deciding factor. MW games in the past gave Clan tech too much power and rendered IS Mechs and tech largely obsolete unless liberties were taken. I have to ask how it is going down in MWO and better sooner than later. It's too late to worry, let alone change conceptual flaws when the game is going live.

Look, I do not intend to blame anybody or claim that things have to be done this way and that. Just raising awareness that MW has history and there is a pattern in all related games. It would be foolish to ignore the impact of Clans on balance and general appeal of the game. That's why they must be part of the initial concept and balance, even if they are not part of the first version of the game. Hence why I'm asking for hard information on the matter to be sure that the devs are taking proper care of it and don't just ruin their own game later on, just because they ignored the 'details' when it was still possible to get things done properly without ******* of the players. Saw that happen too often in other games and wouldn't want to wait a whole year for a sequel.

I hope you can understand that and the implications.

[Thorn Hallis]

I'm pretty sure the devs know that impelementing the Clans will be a tough challenge. But I trust them to come up with a balanced and fun solution for everyone.

[CoffiNail]

Thorn Hallis, on 17 March 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure the devs know that impelementing the Clans will be a tough challenge. But I trust them to come up with a balanced and fun solution for everyone.

^This

If you have not noticed. PGI seems to be very dedicated and serious.

[CCC Dober]

I would expect no less, but as I said: no solid information.

And since Clans (and their Mechs) are not even recognized or at least given a nod to, what does that leave us with?
Hopes and dreams?

[Thorn Hallis]

CCC_Dober, on 17 March 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Hopes and dreams?

Hope, dreams and wet trousers once the first artwork of a clan mech is released.

[CCC Dober]

Ugh, I'm glad I wrote down what I did so you can trade game balance for eye candy ... I really am -.-

[Thorn Hallis]

Pretty hard to imagine that an artwork of a Clan mech could mean that the devs finally started working on 'em, huh.

[CCC Dober]

That's not the point and you know what I mean. If they start doing that, we might get somewhere, but it's one thing to draw Mechs and a completely different thing to handle the biggest balance problem in the history of BattleTech. Clan Mechs and Clan Tech more than qualify for that. Other developers have failed here repeatedly, despite trying their best and before Piranha even existed. This is no small thing and can't be done on the backburner, like adding Mechs and other content. It's a fundamental problem and either it is solved already (which I dearly hope) or you see them getting real busy in the remaining time left before the invasion hits. Would you rather see them try to fix it when it turns out broken or before it comes to that?

[Regal]

It would be interesting if there was some other kind of threat, but I think the clans have to show up. What about this, Clan's invade, but then an alien threat invades and the IS and Clans have to band together to go against it? (Alien mech designs ftw?) Imagine all the fun we could have with that scenario *evil grin*

[Thorn Hallis]

CCC_Dober, on 17 March 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

That's not the point and you know what I mean. If they start doing that, we might get somewhere, but it's one thing to draw Mechs and a completely different thing to handle the biggest balance problem in the history of BattleTech. Clan Mechs and Clan Tech more than qualify for that. Other developers have failed here repeatedly, despite trying their best and before Piranha even existed. This is no small thing and can't be done on the backburner, like adding Mechs and other content. It's a fundamental problem and either it is solved already (which I dearly hope) or you see them getting real busy in the remaining time left before the invasion hits. Would you rather see them try to fix it when it turns out broken or before it comes to that?

I don't think Activision, Microprose and Microsoft gave their best to balance IS and Clan tech for one simple reason: They didn't had to. In singleplayer campaigns it didn't matter, as the AI was never smart enough to use the advantages of the respective techs. In multiplayer matches noone was forced to use the inferior tech. The only places where the tech mattered were all those planetary leagues, and they created their own ways and ideas how to balance the tech.

What makes me trust Piranha will come up with something real good is the business model of MWO. As it is a free-2-play game the devs are highly interested in people (us) playing the game, playing it for a long time and eventually investing hard currency into the game. The decsion to place the game so close to Clan invasion might have had financial reasons, but I'm sure they wouldn't have taken the risk if they didn't allready had some ideas about how to implement the Clans in a balanced and fun way for every player. What I can see so far of the game just strengthens my fate in the devs (yeah ok, minus the artworks of some mechs).

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 17 March 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[Gigaton]

Hey, I don't actually want to stop beating those vile Feddies even after clans show up.

On the subject of lore accurate tech-OPness of clans, I'd say we can expect that.

On the subject of balancing clan teams vs. IS teams in case clans are player controlled (likely IMO), I wouldn't say we know much if any more about IS vs. IS balancing than clan vs. IS balancing. It's not just clan tech really, it's LosTech as well.

Lets assume LosTech is in the game from the start, and that it needs fair amount of grinding from any particular player to unlock the gear. For example, some random Draconis player performs well for quite some time and gets to join Sword of Light. He gets groovy red camo and relatively overpowered gadgets. Does he now get to join any match and roll over the other guys? Probably not.

One way to balance it is some kind of BV system. BV will probably be in the game regardless, as it's pretty safe to say that despite devs' attempt to balance the roles Locust simply won't ever be as battle worthy as Atlas. But BV can also be used to make your super-kitted mech more expensive to the team than "normal" mechs of the weight class, which means your team will lose either tonnage or quality somewhere (or the opposing team gains).

Additional way is to reduce the size of a team in case "elite" units fight as coherent group (and i hope they do). Eg. Kuritan Sword of Light team gets only 2 lances instead of full company, but on average the Swords have better mechs than the regulars. Merc Corps are bit problematic, but assuming they can eventually get access to same tech as top House units they could either get team size restriction (for example, Corp leader gets to assemble a team up to certain fixed BV value, and that value is same for both teams) or grinding access to the top gear could be a requirement for competitive Merc Corp play.

Clans themselves could work early on (for forseeable future after their introduction, really) with 1 star (5) of 'mechs and 1 point (5) of Elementals.

But again, LosTech is about as big unknown aspect of team balancing as clantech is.

Edited by Gigaton, 17 March 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[CCC Dober]

Think outside the box guys, or devs for that matter. All past attempts at taming the beast called Clans have failed because the technological gap was too big. We have seen BV and limited numbers of Mechs, but they only emphasized the technological gaps without solving the gameplay problems that come with it. It's simply not fair to maintain a technological gap from a player perspective without having a real choice in the matter. I don't see the IS playing out other strengths like aerospace fighters and warships and guerilla warfare or shorter supply lines. This game has a limited scope and that basically reduces the means to create balance. The technological gap in MechWarrior can not be overcome with outside factors if they don't influence the fights directly, like air superiority, bombing runs, artillery strikes, infantry and armor support etc. Balance has to happen inside the game and that's where the technological gap becomes problematic. Either it becomes non-existent or the player is enabled to overcome it effectively to level the playing field.

[Thorn Hallis]

I for myself believe they will utilize the one advantage the IS always had: Numbers.

Plus some restrictions on Clan players in terms of rewards when it comes to battlefield behavior.

Whatever it will be, we will know some months from now.

[CCC Dober]

Yeah right, like numbers and zell would solve anything. Let's recap what happens in a typical MW4 fight.

Pure tech - who needs that, take the best of both worlds (Mech+Tech)
Zell - the IS gonna break it anyway, why bother
Numbers - what do I care when my Masakari 1shots anything in the field (not typical, but 4PPCs hurt a lot)

I totally see how Clan Tech can be balanced with 'numbers' and behavior. I'm sure it's perfectly reasonable and fair to enforce it.
/sarcasm

Edited by CCC_Dober, 17 March 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Your lack of imagination hampers your thoughts. This ain't MW4 and as far as it seems will not even come close to it. And thats for the better.

[Gigaton]

They are hoping to balance large damage single shot weapons' one shot kill potential for this game. So hopefully 'mechs like Masakari (or IS' Awesome) will not be as effective as in past titles.

[FireNova]

Moenrg, on 16 March 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

If there was no clans, Comstar would eventually be revealed as the true enemy of man.

And the whole of ComStar would be laughing like this upon realizing their "good fortune":

[ethnic minority]

I'd hate for there to be no clans. The Clan arc, from the invasions all the way to Op Bulldog/Task Force Serpent, was the pinnacle of Mechwarrior/Battletech storytelling. It had the initial shock, the exposition of the clans' origins, the first real victory at Tukkayid, the rallying call (of the IS), and then the epic journey into Mordor Clan space, and then the drawn out epilogue where everyone goes back to their not-so-great-but-at-least-it's-still home.

The 1st through 3rd succession wars, the Fedcom civil war and the Jihad just don't share the same sentimentality.

For that reason, MW2 mercs, Mechcommander, and MW3 will always have the best story of all btech games.

[WerewolfX]

Dober the genral consensus is that your saying we have to pluck either Cash or our hard earned premium stuff is gonna be useless. This isn't gonna be the fact. The devs here are silent because more than likely A) they are getting the product out of the gate and B ) Clans are a concept nothing more. Hell we have a 5 min long interview with game play spread out in it just revealed and you want detailed info on the Clans? Get in line.

As for balancing the Clans compared to IS tech, yes the Clans have better tech that's just a fact of the universe fluff and history. While this is true, it can and more than likely will be balanced by sharing the same heat meter (double heat sinks help counter this but, IS has access to those and some Clan designs are woefully heat inefficient) and I think the player size balance has merit. You want to play Clan that's cool, However with said Bv system I can on average bring an assault (High Tech one at that) for what I can bring a heavy. This does two things makes it a bigger reward for the Clan player who is ALWAYS at a numbers disadvantage (Even in the initial invasion.) and makes it harder for IS players to get that salvage by reducing the chance that all the damage and such are done by Player A on team A while players B-F are also trying to get at that Clantech because everyone wants a piece of Clantech once it drops. Clan players have an advantage right out the gate with the Tech but, you sprinkle it through Salvage (and expensive as hell repair bills) and viola balance. Also as an addendum, the devs have stated that unlike WoT they will abide by the free to play motto. NEVER SELL POWER.

Also chuck the WoT hurt feelings at the door, this isn't Wargaming.net.
(Edited for non 3am induced train of thought)

Edited by WerewolfX, 19 March 2012 - 07:35 AM.