53 replies to this topic

[Pvt Dancer]

This is for the OP...

To be fair, I don't think Clans are being discriminated against. Your right, they /could/ alter the Tech where Clan tech is no better than Lost tech. But the Tech is a core of the universe as much as the clans themselves are. I also think it is silly for anyone who wants to play a faction to jump through hoops to play it. As far as we know, factions might not be limited to account but based on pilot... just because I have a Davion Avatar does not mean I am shoe-horned into playing only Davion. The level of emersion into the Faction is up to you and how much effort you want to put into it...

But to go back into the tech side-track... this is a F2P game, and the 3 different levels of tech in the universe are a great way for Piranha and IGP to make their money. To those that do not understand the tech levels, let me show you and example...

Warhammer has a total of 17 heat sinks (10 for the engine and 7 tons of actual HSs) and 2 PPCs (plus assorted weapontry that doesn't matter for now). To fire those PPCs, the Warhammer generates 20 heat. Standard tech heat sinks is 1 ton, for 1 crit, for 1 heat. You can put standard Heat Sinks (HS for short) in the legs, so if you were standing in water, those HSs work like Double Heat Sinks (DHS for short). Your not allowed by the core rules to place DHSs in the legs. Lost Tech/Star League DHSs are 1 ton, for 3 crit, for 2 heat. Clan DHSs are 1 ton, for 2 Crits, for 2 Heat. Thus there is a progression, and thus it would make sense to make some tech super expensive in game, but allow real money to be spent to get it.

[Pvt Dancer]

CCC_Dober, on 17 March 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Guys, I think we are all on the same page here, but please don't forget that enforcing unnatural behavior such as Zell and limited numbers are neither appealing nor fair for the average player. It is also very cumbersome and largely ignored later on. While I see the point that these problems don't affect IS content now, they might affect them eventually. I have difficulties to see how the honor concept can be enforced ingame, when it is easy and not unheard of to override it at any second. That leaves only numbers, which is a questionable advantage given the higher tech level and quality of the opposing Clan Mechs. I wouldn't look forward to face a bunch of Gladiators or Daishis with certified IS rubble, no matter if I got the numbers on my side. I'd prolly need offmap ArrowIV support to give them a lasting headache and some flyboys to mop them up, because I wouldn't want them to get close enough if I could help it. Just saying ... the difference in numbers means jack if it's just 10 vs 12. Technology is gonna win this regardless.

Can be done easily enough (relativily speaking)... tonnage can be enforced at 3 to 1 odds, you could be 'target locked' on the first target you shoot at till it is dead, and those locks could be enough to keep others from shooting at the same target. Best they could do is ram it or get in the way physically. You can even have a punishment system for those breaking the 'codes' like in WoTs where the player is fined for friendly fire via the Faction system (and in game cash).
In effect, they can artificially enforce clan behavior via programming into the game... because like you have said, you can't trust a total stranger to honor those rules. The problem is I do not want to waste resources on this if it can be avoided through easier methods. I do not know how hard it will be to 'target lock' mechs to prevent others from shooting at him till one or the other is dead.

We will just have to trust the Devs, as they are already wrestling with the same issues we are... you can't be a fan of the universe without running into this roadblock.

[geck0 icaza]

Pvt Dancer, on 17 March 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

This is for the OP...

To be fair, I don't think Clans are being discriminated against. Your right, they /could/ alter the Tech where Clan tech is no better than Lost tech. But the Tech is a core of the universe as much as the clans themselves are. I also think it is silly for anyone who wants to play a faction to jump through hoops to play it. As far as we know, factions might not be limited to account but based on pilot... just because I have a Davion Avatar does not mean I am shoe-horned into playing only Davion. The level of emersion into the Faction is up to you and how much effort you want to put into it...

But to go back into the tech side-track... this is a F2P game, and the 3 different levels of tech in the universe are a great way for Piranha and IGP to make their money. To those that do not understand the tech levels, let me show you and example...

Warhammer has a total of 17 heat sinks (10 for the engine and 7 tons of actual HSs) and 2 PPCs (plus assorted weapontry that doesn't matter for now). To fire those PPCs, the Warhammer generates 20 heat. Standard tech heat sinks is 1 ton, for 1 crit, for 1 heat. You can put standard Heat Sinks (HS for short) in the legs, so if you were standing in water, those HSs work like Double Heat Sinks (DHS for short). Your not allowed by the core rules to place DHSs in the legs. Lost Tech/Star League DHSs are 1 ton, for 3 crit, for 2 heat. Clan DHSs are 1 ton, for 2 Crits, for 2 Heat. Thus there is a progression, and thus it would make sense to make some tech super expensive in game, but allow real money to be spent to get it.

Very well put. Though I would question paying for a tactical advantage on anything. Because it will invariable become a slippery slope.

As far as numbers are concerned, the IS is not complete garbage. (In the table top) I play the IS every once in a while. Usually after one of the IS people in group complains on how OP my clan tech is. And I almost always do better with them cause people then they can all of a sudden rush me cause I have IS stuff now.

Further more, the IS may be behind in general weapon tech but they have an advantage in other areas such as Electronic warfare, specialty weapons and munition types. Though the clans had the same Beagle and ECM but in lighter forms the IS had far greater experience in fully utilizing them.

just a few examples for people who don't play the table top:

-tripple strength myomer: This makes you want to run hot, just not too hot. Makes you run faster, punch/kick/charge harder you get the idea.

-various types of artillery munitions: for once the video game can reflect this.

-larger variety of LRM types: I honestly don't remember which came out before 3050 and after though I know there are enough.

ECM: You can switch ECM to counter another ECM, essentially ECCM. Create ghost targets, making it harder for enemies to target you or anyone near you. (Note clans can doe these too, but they are far less likely)

Beagle: This can allow you target enemies in the forest better as well as detect hidden units. With the additional effect of making it easier to break through a ghost target screen.

Just some ideas that wouldn't be too hard to impliment in the video game.

As for the tech reduction on clan tech... no, no, no. The few times devs have commented on this it has never been suggested to reduce the tech but rather find a game mode, numbers disadvantage or something else to balance it out.

[Pvt Dancer]

Oh, it is indeed a slipperly slope. Lucky for us it is still speculation, but I think it is the easier route. One thing the Devs have said is that everything will be avaible to the base free players, so wallet warriors (to use a WoT phase) might be able to buy it sooner, but it is not exclusive. I am very interested on how the Devs handle Clan tech and how they intend to balance things out between free and how they intend to use real money.

Pretty much, we just have to sit tight and see...

[LordDeathStrike]

just give me my 150 ton demolisher super heavy tank with its rotary guass 3 barrel UNminiGUN and ill show you how the clanners are fodder, well until i burn up my 10000 rounds of ammo anyway!

[Thorn Hallis]

geck0 icaza, on 17 March 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

-larger variety of LRM types: I honestly don't remember which came out before 3050 and after though I know there are enough.

Swarm- and Thunder-LRM. The first is useless, but the latter might really be interesting.

[geck0 icaza]

Believe me, my opponents learned the hard way I know how to use swarms.

But thanks for input on the thread guys. (senses the conclusion)

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Merrick, on 17 March 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

no matter what you do, in order to stay true even a little to the lore the clans will be OP unless they are outnumbered fairly badly. If memory serves 1 clanner can drop at least 5 IS mech's before going out.

A single Clan Mechwarrior typically is superior not just because they have better equipment, but also due to the fact that they are bred for combat before they are even conceived, and trained solely to pilot a 'Mech to the maximum potential.

However, while better tech can be implemented in the game, there is nothing to force the average Clan player to be better than the average Sphere player. Sure, you can hand a crappy pilot a Dire Wolf, but that does not change the fact they are still a crappy pilot, who might get stomped into the ground by a proficient pilot in a Hunchback. Being a Clan player is not going to grant those players inhuman reflexes as we all think of the traditional Clanner. To that end, giving a 20% advantage in numbers to the IS side (that is 10 vs 12) is a massive advantage, unless the entirety of Clan tech grants a 20% advantage (this includes damage rate, speed, heat efficiency, armor effectiveness, etc) over its IS counterparts.

Ten vs. Twelve probably will happen, and until Clan tech is usable by the IS I think that will be entirely fair. I am confident Piranha will find an effective and fair way to balance the issue that can satisfy everyone. And when that time comes, I look forward to seeing you all on the field, whichever side you may be on.

[Odins Reaver]

Cross-Teching should also have the issues that it has in table top, Random reactor shut downs, weapons over-heating and jamming, lasers can explode, good times.

[Gremlich Johns]

I think what people may be considering is that only one group out there will be able to portray a single Clan.

I think not a good premise.

I think that with as many stars as there can be within a given Clan (within the BT milieu), with no supreme Clan Khan or saKhan, there is every possibility for 5-10-15 guys to portray a team representing a star-binary-trinary of a given Cluster under a specific Galaxy.

Each distinct and SEPARATE team could still call themselves Clan "whatever" (out of the four invading Clans, of course) but being delineated by their unique unit name - like the 2nd Star, 12th Sanguine Reavers of the 3rd Trinary, 16th Cluster, Alpha Galaxy.

And, you can run the group the way you want - with or without trials, etc, because you are only part of Clan :Whatever" in name only. Some semblance of Clan-ness may be necessary in game to effect being a Clansmen unit, like no contractions and saying things like "aff" and "neg", but you take it as far into the Canon RP as you want, or not at all. Just do not act like mercs, pirate or IS scum dezgra mechwarriors. You would still have to be the fearsome, powerful fighting force that are the Clans. (Do not alow DA to occur!!)

And say no to cross-tech.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 20 March 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[geck0 icaza]

Gremlich Johns, on 19 March 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

I think what people may be considering is that only one group out there will be able to portray a single Clan.

I think not a good premise.

I think that with as many stars as there can be within a given Clan (within the BT milieu), with no supreme Clan Khan or saKhan, there is every possibility for 5-10-15 guys to portray team representing a star-binary-trinary of a given Cluster under a specific Galaxy.

Each distinct and SEPARATE team could still call themselves Clan "whatever" (out of the four invading Clans, of course) but being delineated by their unique unit name - like the 2nd Star, 12th Sanguine Reavers of the 3rd Trinary, 16th Cluster, Alpha Galaxy.

And, you can run the group the way you want - with or without trials, etc, because you are only part of Clan :Whatever" in name only. Some semblance of Clan-ness may be necessary in game to effect being a Clansmen unit, like no contractions and saying things like "aff" and "neg", but you take it as far into the Canon RP as you want, or not at all. Just do not act like mercs, pirate or IS scum dezgra mechwarriors. You would still have to be the fearsome, powerful fighting force that are the Clans. (Do not alow DA to occur!!)

And say no to cross-tech.

That was pretty much my expectation

geck0 icaza, on 17 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

I get where your coming from being a Jade Falcon player myself. But this is a game. If you want to start a unit and institute all of the RP elements in your unit go right ahead. Heck, I can promise I will if I decide to start a unit. But I will not advocate for those same systems to put in place for a large portion of the game. Especially when the IS get to freely join whomever they want with none of the strings.

But I can see how if someone is operating under the premise of single faction/single unit premise that there would be some heated misunderstandings/arguments.

[CCC Dober]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 18 March 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Being a Clan player is not going to grant those players inhuman reflexes as we all think of the traditional Clanner. To that end, giving a 20% advantage in numbers to the IS side (that is 10 vs 12) is a massive advantage, unless the entirety of Clan tech grants a 20% advantage (this includes damage rate, speed, heat efficiency, armor effectiveness, etc) over its IS counterparts.

Ten vs. Twelve probably will happen, and until Clan tech is usable by the IS I think that will be entirely fair. I am confident Piranha will find an effective and fair way to balance the issue that can satisfy everyone. And when that time comes, I look forward to seeing you all on the field, whichever side you may be on.

It would be interesting to see if the devs can make it so that Clan Mechs are less sluggish and more responsive to give a nod to the Clan trueborn pilots that are bred for war. Some might say this is easy mode, but this could come at a price, such as 'resistance to learning' (exp malus), the need to perform well to qualify for a bloodname (primary/secondary objective?) or other conceivable penalties. On the other hand, you may have less starting options as a freebirth but you can progress faster. That would mean, theoretically speaking, trueborn warriors would be better off to specialize early on and are required to know more about the game to perform according to expectations (last time I checked, blood names weren't handed out for nothing).

As for the numbers and 20% tech advantage to even out the numerical disadvantage: First of all, this only emphasizes the massive technological gap and the idea to overcome this with numbers kind of violates the fair play principle. You just have to imagine both sides playing to their strengths. It doesn't take the clanners too long to focus fire (rules of zell are broken on a regular basis) and overcome that numerical advantage rather quick thanks to their superior technology. The IS must have a serious weight advantage to prevail (both in numbers and tonnage) and this again does not make the game fair at all. The more you look at it, the more you come to realize just how bad this technological gap is for balance/fair play.

Let's pretend to be a dev: you create this game, which has restrictions. In order to get people interested, it has to be fair.
So that means the playing field must be level. So in this case you don't get an auto-win button just because you're riding a Clan Mech.
If the technological advantage is there to stay, the game must have means to overcome it, such as salvage and black market.

By extension, the seemingly underpowered IS side with access to Clan Tech would actually stand a chance in 12vs10 scenario, as opposed to a pure tech approach where both sides have no access to the other's Mechs and technology. Interestingly enough, there are benefits for both sides, as certain IS technologies are not overly represented or thoroughly developed in the Clans and vice versa. Artillery weapons come to mind here and electronical warfare. It would be win-win to enable global access to all Mechs and technology available through salvage and black market. That goes for both fair play and general appeal of all factions in the game, whether Clan or IS.

[Carl Wrede]

My guess is that they will take a similar approach as world of tanks does.

You will not get the "good stuff" at first, clanners will probably start with second line mechs before they can work themselves up to the Omnis. Much like the IS pilots will need to work themselves up to the elite regiments that might have a chance to get clan salvage.

That would make the playing field much more level and not break the lore as it is.

[geck0 icaza]

CCC_Dober, on 23 March 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

As for the numbers and 20% tech advantage to even out the numerical disadvantage: First of all, this only emphasizes the massive technological gap and the idea to overcome this with numbers kind of violates the fair play principle. You just have to imagine both sides playing to their strengths. It doesn't take the clanners too long to focus fire (rules of zell are broken on a regular basis) and overcome that numerical advantage rather quick thanks to their superior technology. The IS must have a serious weight advantage to prevail (both in numbers and tonnage) and this again does not make the game fair at all. The more you look at it, the more you come to realize just how bad this technological gap is for balance/fair play.

Let's pretend to be a dev: you create this game, which has restrictions. In order to get people interested, it has to be fair.
So that means the playing field must be level. So in this case you don't get an auto-win button just because you're riding a Clan Mech.

I disagree with that definition of fair. So long as both sides have an equal chance of winning based on equipment and player lvl/rank its fair. If that means it will take 2v1 odds for a pure IS force to take on a pure clan force then whats the problem? Both sides have a niche and both sides must adapt to tactics and strategies in order to over come their opponents. So long as they balance the determination of those margins then it will be fair.

[Derek Icelord]

I still find it... interesting, that just about everyone takes it as a given that Clans will be playable (and playable in the near future).

More on topic:
Given how much the developers seem to be working to find that "sweet spot" between game balance and BattleTech lore, I think it is best to give them the benefit of the doubt. Simple fact is we don't know jack. Given the clues we do have, it seems a given that Clans will be in the game, but we have zero solid knowledge to the extent of their impact on the playable game or their (real world) timeline for debut. I know how it is to be let down time and again on a topic/universe that you're deeply invested in (I've been there more than once), but for once I trust that the development team will implement Clans in a way that is both fun for the game and close enough to the established lore to still be the BattleTech Clans we know and love (or loathe, depending on how close to Terra your home world lies ).

While invariably there will be people who don't like how the Clans are implemented, it bears keeping in mind that over thinking and excessive worrying about the unknown shouldn't detract from your ability to enjoy the game, even if events down the road cause you to leave. Cliché as it is, better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.

Edited by Derek Icelord, 24 March 2012 - 05:42 AM.

[NightFallsOnU]

Oppi, on 17 March 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Which is exactly what they want to achieve. Clanners should by far be the minority of players (according to lore and to keep everything balanced), but sadly that's not going to happen with all those "I can haz Madcat ?" dudes out there. So what can be done ?
* Give Clantech to everyone ? -> Raping the lore. (Where would IS Pilots get it ? Even after the extinction of the smoke jaguars, Clantech was rare in the Inner Sphere.)
* Make Clantech balanced with IS tech ? -> Raping the lore. (IS bombed itself back to the dark age during the succession wars, while the Clans even improved the tech Kerensky took with him. It's bound to be superior.)
* Make it hard to become a Clanner ? -> Possible, but not likely, because of the reasons the OP mentioned. People would be upset.

IMO they shouldn't balance by faction but by every single game. A company of IS Mechs against 5-10 Clanners might be fair, and being constantly outnumbered could keep some people in the IS ranks.

I will stay true to the Sphere even if i have to fight all of Jade Falcon by myself long live the 1st Robinson Rangers!

[Hexion]

My 'money' is riding on the idea the devs can get balancing of this sort right.

[Tifalia]

geck0 icaza, on 16 March 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I get the trial of position thing but this is a game. And not an RP one either.

I am sorry, but why can it not be both?

[Gremlich Johns]

Tifalia, on 25 March 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

I am sorry, but why can it not be both?

It can if properly done. Some teams will RP, others will not. There is no requirement to engage in RP to enjoy MWO

[Odins Reaver]

Very true but there needs to be a small understand of lore when it comes to the clans. That way after their third post ******** about not having even numbers or other stuff.