41 replies to this topic

[guardiandashi]

I honestly think no laser should have much more than ~2-2.5 second "burn time"

I would also be inclined to have the pulse laser do ~0.1-1.0 damage per pulse

the IS small pulse laser if it does 0.1 damage per pulse is going to do ~30 -35 "pulses" per shot
the medium pulse should actually fire fewer pulses for its 6 damage (mabie 0.5 damage per pulse so ~12 pulses)
and the large pulse laser might do 1.0 damage per pulse for 9 pulses/shot

the reason I am suggesting the small pulse laser have the most "pulses" is that when it is attacking infantry it can take up to 18 infantry out of action in a single firing in the tabel top game

[StaIker]

Rayge, on 18 March 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

I really like the idea. I think it will make laser boats alot more skillful, instead of being point-and-click wonders.

Not quite. If a laser cannot be kept on target for the duration of the burn then its effective damage potential is reduced. If the shooter and the target are both moving and the range is long I can easily see the laser being waved all over the place, sometimes on the mech, sometimes on the ground but not really doing any worthwhile damage to a particular panel. If that is the case, lasers will be shelved in favor of weapons that do reliable damage in one place, such as Gauss or PPC weapons.

We saw this in MW4 with pulse type weapons. While their on-paper damage was very high it tended to be scattered all over the target where a regular laser did less damage, but it all went to the same place to create a burn through on the armor. In practice, people went for point damage as it was simply more effective.

[MaddMaxx]

guardiandashi, on 20 March 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I honestly think no laser should have much more than ~2-2.5 second "burn time"

I would also be inclined to have the pulse laser do ~0.1-1.0 damage per pulse
(snip)

So you would advocate that most all lasers have 7.5 seconds recharge cycles? Given the 10 second turn of BT/TT max damage during any burn time leaves only recharge time left before the next shot right?

[MaddMaxx]

StaIker, on 20 March 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Not quite. If a laser cannot be kept on target for the duration of the burn then its effective damage potential is reduced. If the shooter and the target are both moving and the range is long I can easily see the laser being waved all over the place, sometimes on the mech, sometimes on the ground but not really doing any worthwhile damage to a particular panel. If that is the case, lasers will be shelved in favor of weapons that do reliable damage in one place, such as Gauss or PPC weapons.

We saw this in MW4 with pulse type weapons. While their on-paper damage was very high it tended to be scattered all over the target where a regular laser did less damage, but it all went to the same place to create a burn through on the armor. In practice, people went for point damage as it was simply more effective.

The whole point of the burn time is that exact affect. To spread the damage. Given instant times to target, the Laser will always apply some damage, with the Pilots skill dictating how much and where. With the PPC and Gauss's ability to completely miss the target for zero damage that still leaves the laser as a good damage potential weapon at all times.

[Lex Peregrine]

Here's my sugestions, not based on btech rules or real science:

I like the idea of laser beam burn time and the possibility of spreading damage, with large lasers having longer duration than medium and small lasers. But I dont think the burn times should be too big, that would make them too innefective for more inexperienced players as they would spread damage all over.

The ER versions should, besides longer range and more damage, have tigher, brighter beams and slightly shorter burn time (more focused lens?)

For the pulse versions I have two ideas, either give them even shorter burn times and "reload" but with lower range and higher damage per second, making a small laser like an energy machine gun (almost), or have them fire in pulses for the duration of their burn time, so while a standard laser does continuous damage while its on target, a pulse laser does more damage but only when the pulses hit.

Finally, regarding PPCs, one cool idea that crossed my mind to make them a lot different than a large laser, is having a charge period (1 second?) when the player presses the trigger, while we hear the weapon powering and the muzzle flashing (whatever), and then shoot a larger beam with shorter burn time and higher range than a large laser.

[Technoviking]

I appreciate your guys thoughts on damage and heat but we really need to look at the important issues.

Can I write PWN in steaming Snow with lasers? Do they last long enough to write stravag? Can I outline the shape of your busted mech on concrete, and how long does that stay? Can my lancemates and I make a laser show in the sky, and can we pulse them with a techno beat if necessary? These longer lasting lasers open up worlds of possibilities.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Wow 3-4s burn times will be an eternity in game. I'd probably just make them equal in burn time, or go down as they get larger.

Bigger lasers are easier to hit with at a given range
MWO doesn't have any cone of fire to represent accuracy.
How then can we make larger weapons easier to hit with at the same range?
-Shorter burn time

Its the opposite of what many are suggesting, but it gives the effect of canon in the context of a RT game.

[Prosperity Park]

Hey! Wait a second here... Large lasers weigh 5x that of a single Medium laser, but do less than twice the damage (5 vs 8). You can't say all that extra weight is simply dedicated to slighly increasing damage and extending the range beyond that of a medium laser.

We can say that all the extra weight of a large Laser is dedicated for 1.) the modest damage boost, 2.) the range increase, AND 3.) a bulkier, more powerful capacitor system that allows you to unload the entire burst more quickly than a medium laser. So a Large Laser could possibly unload itself faster than a Medium Laser. That's fair.

Medium lasers are like 9mm pistols - everybody has them, they're cheap, powerful enough to do some damage, but they're difficult to keep on target and you have to maintain a your sights for a long time before you can bring all it's power to bear.

A Large Laser should be more like a Battle Rifle - less common than pistols, more expensive, heavier, bulkier, but also 2x the per-shot power and easier to deliver large quantities of firepower to the target in a short burst of time

PPCs should be like high-powered sniper rifles - very expensive, slow to reload, meant to deliver everything at once instead of repeatedly in a burst.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 21 March 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[StaIker]

MaddMaxx, on 21 March 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

The whole point of the burn time is that exact affect. To spread the damage. Given instant times to target, the Laser will always apply some damage, with the Pilots skill dictating how much and where. With the PPC and Gauss's ability to completely miss the target for zero damage that still leaves the laser as a good damage potential weapon at all times.

I appreciate that the idea sounds good on paper but we have years of observable experience in MW4 to know that it simply doesn't work. People avoided weapons that spread damage because their contribution to a kill was so much less than point damage weapons. If lasers don't do comparable point damage to the other choices available, they won't be used.

[Johannes Falkner]

I think there is some merit to the idea. However I think we should be talking about 0.15 to 0.5 sec durations. In a running fight this would still result in damage across two sections or more, but it would be concentrated enough to not invalidate (beam/standard) lasers. It would also allow for pulse lasers to be different.

[StaIker]

Yup, I think that's far more realistic Johannes. Even a half a second burn time in the heat of combat could result in negligable damage on target, let alone multiple seconds of having to hold the reticule steady. This will be obvious to the Devs when they try it themselves so I don't think it's going to be in for long once they start some serious play testing. Still, it makes lasers useless for snapshots even with a short burn time. I hope they don't turn out to be useless in general.

[Belisarius1]

StaIker, on 21 March 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

I appreciate that the idea sounds good on paper but we have years of observable experience in MW4 to know that it simply doesn't work. People avoided weapons that spread damage because their contribution to a kill was so much less than point damage weapons. If lasers don't do comparable point damage to the other choices available, they won't be used.

Actually, Stalker, I think that's plain wrong.

Laser will always have the phenomenal advantage of hitting exactly where you're aiming every time. Will burn-time lasers compete with PPC/gauss for the alpha crown anymore? No, probably not. But they'll always have a place as the weapon that gets consistent damage no matter how your enemy moves, or lags, or covers himself.

I'm talking hundreds of milliseconds max, though. Several seconds is totally insane. Did someone important actually suggest that?

[StaIker]

Well... no one important as far as I know...

[Belisarius1]

I've decided I'm only going to argue with people who are important, or who I can at least find common ground with/aren't retarded. Have fun pulling your hair out talking to dudes who think multi-second duration lasers are a good idea.

Edited by Belisarius†, 21 March 2012 - 11:04 PM.

[StaIker]

Sounds to me like someone is on the verge of snapping.

Edited by StaIker, 21 March 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[Belisarius1]

Not really, I just realised yesterday that I'd spent half an hour typing out a response to someone who would never read a word I said, would never believe a word I said, and would go on believing that there was no higher calling than making players act as inert, skill-less pieces in a replicated 3d tabletop game of CBT, regardless of anything I could say.

So, now I don't do that anymore.

Anyway on topic, I really don't have a problem with duration lasers so long as they cap out at manageable levels, like 500ms tops. And I think making LLs last longer is a sensible, believable idea.

Edited by Belisarius†, 21 March 2012 - 11:31 PM.

[Prosperity Park]

Belisarius†, on 21 March 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Not really, I just realised yesterday that I'd spent half an hour typing out a response to someone who would never read a word I said, would never believe a word I said, and would go on believing that there was no higher calling than making players act as inert, skill-less pieces in a replicated 3d tabletop game of CBT, regardless of anything I could say.

So, now I don't do that anymore.

Anyway on topic, I really don't have a problem with duration lasers so long as they cap out at manageable levels, like 500ms tops. And I think making LLs last longer is a sensible, believable idea.

I'm confused... lasers should be capped at 0.5 sec duration, but the large lasers can be longer than that?

I think Large Lasers should have shorter duration that Medium Lasers because a large, heavy capacitor can store then entire shot's energy and dump it out quickly, but a very lightweight laser system can't store the entire laser load in a bank so it has to be fed energy from the reactor during the burst in order to generate the needed damage. That would give people a reason to use large lasers.

If Large Laser beams last longer than the already-long medium lasers, then the Dev's will have some interesting game reports to pour over during the Beta test phase. They'll soon enough find out every single different way you can try to substitute a Large Laser for a PPC.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 22 March 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[Siilk]

Prosperity Park, on 22 March 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

If Large Laser beams last longer than the already-long medium lasers, then the Dev's will have some interesting game reports to pour over during the Beta test phase. They'll soon enough find out every single different way you can try to substitute a Large Laser for a PPC.

Hardly so. PPCs lack pinpoint accuracy and instant travel time of lasers, so it would still be as bad as you think.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Prosperity Park, on 22 March 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

I'm confused... lasers should be capped at 0.5 sec duration, but the large lasers can be longer than that?

I think Large Lasers should have shorter duration that Medium Lasers because a large, heavy capacitor can store then entire shot's energy and dump it out quickly, but a very lightweight laser system can't store the entire laser load in a bank so it has to be fed energy from the reactor during the burst in order to generate the needed damage. That would give people a reason to use large lasers.

Its more than that. Shorter burn time= greater damage concentration. Greater damage concentration means longer effective range really. Especially since lasers will go to the horizon in this game and shoot out the recticle. This is all something a large laser should have over a small or medium. It already does less damage per ton and per heat.

[MaddMaxx]

Let's take a Medium size Mech, a Hunchback for example.

Small Laser - Long Range = 90m
Medium Laser - long Range = 270m
Large Laser - Long Range = 450

If we look at the Lasers and their Max Ranges, which Laser(s) would you think would be the most likely to hit and thus apply all of their damage, most often?

Now assuming we make the Larger Lasers burn time .5s or even 1s maximum, how much of the total damage of these Lasers could a Pilot get on a target, unless all of the damage was applied instantly? (something no one wants right).

I am not sure about many others, but I find keeping a reticule on a moving target at 450m a real challenge, especially when I am also moving. So perhaps a mid way burn time 1.5s - 2.75s may be a proper compromise.

Adding a pic from the GDC video to show what I mean. Check the Range on the bracketed Hunchback. GL getting max burn (damage) on that sucker in .5s with both ends moving around.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 22 March 2012 - 02:06 PM.