139 replies to this topic

[Zervziel]

As maligned as it is on these forums, I think something similar to MW4's mech lab would be better if it had some revision. I'm thinking that variants that already exist would act as the templates and when you go into modify your mech, say the autocannon of a Centurion, you can only replace t with another autocannon variety. No sticking gauss rifles and long toms into those slots. The extra weight could used for armor, heat sinks, or minor engine upgrades. My reason as to why they are restricted weapon wise to what the variant has is to give the variants of different mechs as well as the mechs themselves a more unique feel.

[fearfactory]

Red1769, on 24 March 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Victor wasn't my example, the Dire Wolf is a Clan mech and an omni one at that, so it should be very highly customizable compared to IS mechs, which has varients and thus different hardpoints more than likely associated with each varient in-game, and thus locked to a specific type of weapon for that hardpoint. Same goes with Vlad's Executioner, omnimech thus highly customizable.

I'm aware that was not your example. I was trying to point out that saying "this person in a novel has A so that means everyone else has the ability to get A because of it."

Also, Vlad's Executioner was more in-depth than a simple weapon swap. They modified the base chassis to get that to work and we all know that you can't do that to an Omni base chassis.

Red1769, on 24 March 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Clan stuff should be extremely difficult to acquire and I've said this, but in a way is also completely different discussion as we're not talking about clan mechs, we're talking about IS mechs. Archer's Penetrator was the major example, and that didn't stray from the base varient or hardpoints, just upgraded to clan weapons. If you can afford it, yeah, you should have a "tricked out ride." The TT is far different, human ingenuity allowed for superior tech to work with less superior tech and for different varients and even custom mechs to be made if those that owned them could afford it or had to be done (like with Archer's and Adam Steiner's units in Operation Audacity). The novels show that, so you can't really say that "sourcebooks and rulebooks" take priority over the novels.

These are all special cases though. Archer's Penetrator is what happens when you're probably the top 5% or so in the military. He's a very special case much like Victor which is why I brought him up. Steiner's units were also specialized. I should have brought up Kai Allard Liao who basically has his tricked out Centurion... however he has that because of his position NOT because he has the cash. If you buy Clan Tech or aquire it you DAMN well have the ability to keep it and restock it, and chances are, you won't be able to do it because the House Militaries or a powerful Merc Unit are going to take it first chance. If you're a generic unit, which I would assume most of MechWarrior Online would portray that, you're better off selling it because it's more trouble than anything.

Plus, there is a section in Total Warfare, BattleTech's main rulebook, that specifically states that rulebooks and sourcebooks trump novels when it comes to the game rules and gameplay. The story is what would trump the sourcebook only if it conflicts with the sourcebook's story. Novels DO NOT portray how to play a game of BattleTech.

TW: Fiction vs. Rules

"It is important to note that fiction, though essential in making the game universe come alive, should never be construed as rules. While BattleTech fiction usually attempts to adhere to the aesthetics established by the rules, authors often use creative license to accomplish the needs of a given story."

I'm fully aware that they are going to allow customs though... and it seems like they are going to find a way to keep it balanced. I'm hoping this hardpoint system works better than MechWarrior 4. It's obvious that you could not translate MechWarrior 4 designs to the board game correctly and some 'Mechs were just so damn broken.

[Dlardrageth]

Black Sunder, on 24 March 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Sorry, PGI already stated no custom matches and no player controlled servers.

Indeed. But in the same fashion of fearfactory's idea we could just be less modest and start lobbying for a separate game mode where no customizations at all are allowed in. Bring a stock variant or GTFO, sounds good. Sounds actually like a legit plan. Heck, I'm gonna do this, I didn't need those pink bunny ears on an Atlas anyway...

[fearfactory]

Dlardrageth, on 24 March 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Indeed. But in the same fashion of fearfactory's idea we could just be less modest and start lobbying for a separate game mode where no customizations at all are allowed in. Bring a stock variant or GTFO, sounds good. Sounds actually like a legit plan. Heck, I'm gonna do this, I didn't need those pink bunny ears on an Atlas anyway...

It's not difficult to do at all. MechWarrior 4 has the "stock units only" (or something like that) feature. Why not?

Customizing just makes the game easier. What's the challenge of using a different design if you just spam medium lasers?

[Seabear]

The one thing I find hard to accept is the way this topic gets chewed to pieces over and over as if who you are is on the line. It is a fact that full customization will not be available at beta or probably not at the launch, From a RL logistic and programing pov, there is no way to bring such to fruitiation within the time frame we have presented to us. Right now, I don't even care if there are that many variants available of the base mechs. I just want to play. This game appears to have so much to offer after such a long. Since the game is intentended to allow for changes as time goes on, let's just accept it that some of us don't want full Solaris style customizations and others do. Let's keep our discussions fun without getting our egos involved. It's the devs who will make the decisions. I don't mean to lecture, but I read these forums for FUN.

[Javelin156]

If the devs decide to go with the Mechwarrior 4 mechlab the game will be broken within a few months of launch. There is no balance with this system. People are going to level up or do whatever they do through progression, get the assault mechs and dominate. There is no way to make a light/medium mech that can compete with an assault mech. Its going to be big mechs one shotting you with there 4 ppcs, gauze rilfes or whatever the standard assault mech comes with. This is fine, i expect a light mech to get blown up easily by an assault mech, as long as they can hit me. I am sorry but not being able to equip your light/medium mech with proper weapons is going to cause major issues.

I dont see the issue with making a nice 50 ton mech that has like 12 medium lasers and grouping them. Whats the problem here? Why am i a frankenmech? What if i wanna just put all LRM 5's and run around like a crazy person. Customization is probably one of the best and most important parts of battletech. You use the Mechwarrior 4 mechlab you really wont have that ability in game.

I hope the devs say something soon though.

[Belisarius1]

Javelin156, on 26 March 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

If the devs decide to go with the Mechwarrior 4 mechlab the game will be broken within a few months of launch. There is no balance with this system. People are going to level up or do whatever they do through progression, get the assault mechs and dominate. There is no way to make a light/medium mech that can compete with an assault mech. Its going to be big mechs one shotting you with there 4 ppcs, gauze rilfes or whatever the standard assault mech comes with. This is fine, i expect a light mech to get blown up easily by an assault mech, as long as they can hit me. I am sorry but not being able to equip your light/medium mech with proper weapons is going to cause major issues.

I dont see the issue with making a nice 50 ton mech that has like 12 medium lasers and grouping them. Whats the problem here? Why am i a frankenmech? What if i wanna just put all LRM 5's and run around like a crazy person. Customization is probably one of the best and most important parts of battletech. You use the Mechwarrior 4 mechlab you really wont have that ability in game.

I hope the devs say something soon though.

...wait, what? How does the MW4 mechlab ruin the game by promoting alpha boats, when at the same time your dream 'Mech is a medlas boat? And regardless of that inconsistency, how does the MW4 system rule out your boat? Just because there weren't 'Mechs with slots for 12ML? That's pretty easily changed.

People need to realise that free-for-all customization is the most broken thing in the world in an online PvP environment. The only reason you can get away with it in TT is because there's a GM standing over your shoulder. Hardpoint systems get around that need, and give designers tools to balance over-powerful configs.

In MW4, at least there's only one or two assaults that can take 3CERPPC 2GR, and you have a mechanism to balance those by removing their JJs or whatever. With 100% ground-up customisation, every single 'Mech will be 3CERPPC 3GR ECM BAP JJ. Your 12ML medium is not worth that.

[Ilyich]

Honestly, if I can change the weapons and maybe a few features like slight color changes to make it my own I'll be happy.

[Javelin156]

Belisarius†, on 26 March 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

...wait, what? How does the MW4 mechlab ruin the game by promoting alpha boats, when at the same time your dream 'Mech is a medlas boat? And regardless of that inconsistency, how does the MW4 system rule out your boat? Just because there weren't 'Mechs with slots for 12ML? That's pretty easily changed.

People need to realise that free-for-all customization is the most broken thing in the world in an online PvP environment. The only reason you can get away with it in TT is because there's a GM standing over your shoulder. Hardpoint systems get around that need, and give designers tools to balance over-powerful configs.

In MW4, at least there's only one or two assaults that can take 3CERPPC 2GR, and you have a mechanism to balance those by removing their JJs or whatever. With 100% ground-up customisation, every single 'Mech will be 3CERPPC 3GR ECM BAP JJ. Your 12ML medium is not worth that.

Any mech can have jump jets, any mech can euip whatever they like as long as it has the tonnage to support what your putting inside. That is with the true rules.

If i use mechwarrior 4 mechlab rules i might have a light mech for example. I should beable in theory to get atleast 8 medium lasers into it, maybe more possibly. With mechwarrior 4 rules i might have 1 or 2 pods on that mech that only supports 1 or 2 peices of equipment. These pods may not even support lasers, or machine guns or heavier weapons.Each pod is different (can only support certain types of gear). This is just an example but more importantly how the mechwarrior 4 system works.

If i have the money i should in theory beable to build the mech how needed. This is balance all in itself. I would hope money is hard to earn in game. This will stop people from being nuts. I would hope it would be a risk and reward system.

[Belisarius1]

Just out of curiousity, did you ever play MW3's multiplayer?

Because it was a glorious example of exactly what happens when you allow people to build their mechs how they need. I'll give you a hint; it involves exactly one set of weapons, and as many of them per chassis as possible. That is a balance all of its own, because everyone is 100% competitive... provided they take as many medium lasers as can be squeezed onto a 60 tonner with JJs.

Edited by Belisarius†, 27 March 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[Javelin156]

Seabear, on 25 March 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

The one thing I find hard to accept is the way this topic gets chewed to pieces over and over as if who you are is on the line. It is a fact that full customization will not be available at beta or probably not at the launch, From a RL logistic and programing pov, there is no way to bring such to fruitiation within the time frame we have presented to us. Right now, I don't even care if there are that many variants available of the base mechs. I just want to play. This game appears to have so much to offer after such a long. Since the game is intentended to allow for changes as time goes on, let's just accept it that some of us don't want full Solaris style customizations and others do. Let's keep our discussions fun without getting our egos involved. It's the devs who will make the decisions. I don't mean to lecture, but I read these forums for FUN.

This thread is being chewed apart because its probably one of the most important aspects of Mechwarrior. I wont be playing if i cant build my mech how i want. I am sure alot of the people reading this forum feel the same way.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Not to mention only a few chassis' that had the best hit profile etc. Assaults only (with a few exceptions). The dev's are trying to give this game diversity and make all classes/types viable. Not something thats ever been done before. I really don't want to go through the cookie cutter FOTM saga again. It gets old very fast.
@ Javelin - then it may be that this isn't the game for you. We'll see what it's like when it launches.

Edited by Nik Van Rhijn, 27 March 2012 - 05:39 AM.

[Javelin156]

Belisarius†, on 27 March 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

Just out of curiousity, did you ever play MW3's multiplayer?

Because it was a glorious example of exactly what happens when you allow people to build their mechs how they need. I'll give you a hint; it involves exactly one set of weapons, and as many of them per chassis as possible. That is a balance all of its own, because everyone is 100% competitive... provided they take as many medium lasers as can be squeezed onto a 60 tonner with JJs.

Mechwarrior 3 was amazing, probably the best Mechwarrior game to date. Honestly wait till they have clan mechs and your inside your innersphere mech with old tech. You think mechwarrior 3 was unfair lol. Mechwarrior 3s multiplayer let you design whatever you wanted, you didnt get charged c-bills. You really have to understand if there is an online economy your not going to beable to just whip up the mech of your dreams. Your going to have to earn it. This is hopefully what will keep people from reinacting your mechwarrior 3 scenario.

[MaddMaxx]

Javelin156, on 27 March 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

Any mech can have jump jets, any mech can euip whatever they like as long as it has the tonnage to support what your putting inside. That is with the true rules.

If i use mechwarrior 4 mechlab rules i might have a light mech for example. I should beable in theory to get atleast 8 medium lasers into it, maybe more possibly. With mechwarrior 4 rules i might have 1 or 2 pods on that mech that only supports 1 or 2 peices of equipment. These pods may not even support lasers, or machine guns or heavier weapons.Each pod is different (can only support certain types of gear). This is just an example but more importantly how the mechwarrior 4 system works.

If i have the money i should in theory beable to build the mech how needed. This is balance all in itself. I would hope money is hard to earn in game. This will stop people from being nuts. I would hope it would be a risk and reward system.

Your Light Mech with 8 (maybe more) ML's has to downgrade it Engine 2X and carry 50% armor and still runs a lack of Heat sinks such that 1 Alpha and it goes POOF!

Not an optimal build for sure.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

They've already said that you can get things in game either with C-bills or RL cash. Those who don't want to wait will just pay for it if they can afford it. If you only play a few hours here and there are you going to run an "inferior" mech to those who can dedicate many hours to the game? Getting killed all the time due to inferior design/technology isn't fun for most people.

[Javelin156]

MaddMaxx, on 27 March 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

Your Light Mech with 8 (maybe more) ML's has to downgrade it Engine 2X and carry 50% armor and still runs a lack of Heat sinks such that 1 Alpha and it goes POOF!

Not an optimal build for sure.

Yah but the point is if i want to do it i can.Sorry its been years since i played tabletop, its all coming back to me though =D. You dont have that option with MW4 rules.

P.S i think i could do this if i had clantech. I really hope they let us earn it over time.

Edited by Javelin156, 27 March 2012 - 05:56 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Javelin156, on 27 March 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Yah but the point is if i want to do it i can. (snip) You dont have that option with MW4 rules.

And you don't think that perhaps there was a good reason that Dev Team made that change??

[OnLashoc]

Stormwolf, on 22 March 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I really hope that they don't make a carbon copy of the MW4 mechlab.

I'd rather have a TT style mechlab where you can swap a component for a similar component (LBX10 for a AC/10 for instance)
Or better yet, close down the mechlab and give us all canon variants.

Aweful idea in my opinion, I so wish they had a "dislike" button... Not everyone here is a table top player, and not everyone likes canned loadouts.

Some of us like to actually build our perfect war machine from scratch. In fact that is one of the greatest things about MW4 (at least pre-mektek *and no I'm not a Mektek hater, I just don't like some of the changes they made*) over the years certain configs and loadouts would become popular and would become phased out over time because someone came out with an even better config and that config would become the popular config and over and over this cycle was repeated.

Example - Madcat Mk2 2 Clan Gauss 1 Lt. Gauss 3 ER Large Laser Ferro Armor, 52 Kph was a beast of a config. Would 2 shot most mechs, 3 shot all mechs (pending lag damage and steady aim) but was weak in its heat management. Then people started running 2 Clan Guass and 3 ER Large Lasers with specialty Reactive or Reflective Armor and bumping the speed up to 58 Kph. Then after Mekteks mekpaks people started running Miniguass variations and so forth...

You see an open mechlab gives an even greater replayability to the game, and makes popular varations become inferior over time due to human ingenuity.

Why would you want to get rid of that element of the battlefield?

[OnLashoc]

Javelin156, on 26 March 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

If the devs decide to go with the Mechwarrior 4 mechlab the game will be broken within a few months of launch. There is no balance with this system. People are going to level up or do whatever they do through progression, get the assault mechs and dominate. There is no way to make a light/medium mech that can compete with an assault mech. Its going to be big mechs one shotting you with there 4 ppcs, gauze rilfes or whatever the standard assault mech comes with. This is fine, i expect a light mech to get blown up easily by an assault mech, as long as they can hit me. I am sorry but not being able to equip your light/medium mech with proper weapons is going to cause major issues.

I dont see the issue with making a nice 50 ton mech that has like 12 medium lasers and grouping them. Whats the problem here? Why am i a frankenmech? What if i wanna just put all LRM 5's and run around like a crazy person. Customization is probably one of the best and most important parts of battletech. You use the Mechwarrior 4 mechlab you really wont have that ability in game.

I hope the devs say something soon though.

Why would it be broken within months? MW4 has open customization and it's still being played 13 years later... :/

[Javelin156]

OnLashoc, on 27 March 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Aweful idea in my opinion, I so wish they had a "dislike" button... Not everyone here is a table top player, and not everyone likes canned loadouts.

Some of us like to actually build our perfect war machine from scratch. In fact that is one of the greatest things about MW4 (at least pre-mektek *and no I'm not a Mektek hater, I just don't like some of the changes they made*) over the years certain configs and loadouts would become popular and would become phased out over time because someone came out with an even better config and that config would become the popular config and over and over this cycle was repeated.

Example - Madcat Mk2 2 Clan Gauss 1 Lt. Gauss 3 ER Large Laser Ferro Armor, 52 Kph was a beast of a config. Would 2 shot most mechs, 3 shot all mechs (pending lag damage and steady aim) but was weak in its heat management. Then people started running 2 Clan Guass and 3 ER Large Lasers with specialty Reactive or Reflective Armor and bumping the speed up to 58 Kph. Then after Mekteks mekpaks people started running Miniguass variations and so forth...

You see an open mechlab gives an even greater replayability to the game, and makes popular varations become inferior over time due to human ingenuity.

Why would you want to get rid of that element of the battlefield?

Your forgetting that its all going to cost c-bills to make the changes you want. Very exspensive. I think your mistaken to, mechwarrior 4 rules give you a very limited option for changing your mechs weapons and gear.

OnLashoc, on 27 March 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

Why would it be broken within months? MW4 has open customization and it's still being played 13 years later... :/

Mechwarrior 4 doesnt use an economy though. Thats the major factor being considered here. If it is how it was when i played, it was just everyone in assault mechs jump jetting behind mountains killing eachother. FUN FUN NOT!

Edited by Javelin156, 27 March 2012 - 06:17 AM.