204 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

Just a simple poll of how people should interpret jump jets.

Ideas I'd like to contribute, make jump jets more responsive for lighter mechs, less responsive for heavier mechs. Flying sidekicks, combination of jump + charge, with missed dfas. Also dont make jump jets a fully discharge, allow feathering for jump jets. (tapping jump jets for less height but more air time)

Edited by ManDaisy, 27 November 2011 - 09:59 AM.

[Hayden]

Use of jumpjets should be extremely jarring and fast, making it very difficult to target enemies and be targeted, though not impossible.

[Raeven]

Should be able to jump in reverse, as well. 'Mechs can land facing any direction in a jump, so turning should definately be possible, and rotation speed should be quick.

[Ammoguy]

Limit the number of uses. Jump jet fuel, like weapon ammunition, should not be infinite. Good for reaching a higher vantage point or emergency evade of incoming fire. If they DO decide to make it infinite... make it very hot to use to prevent overuse. It should have a tactical use but not become the "pop tart" tool it became in MW4.

[Kay Wolf]

Ammoguy, the idea behind jump jets is the excess steam/heat from the MHD powerplant in the 'Mechs chest is shunted into the Jump Jets and made available for use when necessary. Should they be finite? Maybe... perhaps have a "recharge" time of their own.

[Dlardrageth]

As long as it doesn't turn into the LOL-game mechanic it used to be in MW4, I'd be fine. Even the MW2-like skating could work if you made controlling the actual flight just difficult enough. In order to not turn Mechs with jump jets into asian-style martial artists from some Hongkong movie.

[Black Sunder]

I want jump jets so I can jump across rooftops in cities like Batman.

[Malavai Fletcher]

Ammoguy, on 27 November 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

Limit the number of uses. Jump jet fuel, like weapon ammunition, should not be infinite. Good for reaching a higher vantage point or emergency evade of incoming fire. If they DO decide to make it infinite... make it very hot to use to prevent overuse. It should have a tactical use but not become the "pop tart" tool it became in MW4.

Yes it was a pop tart tool in MW4,and unorganised groups in pubs would fall victim to the pop tarts continually,if you tried pop tarting in a league match against 8 organised guys on comms you would get nailed very very quickly.Plus pop tarting in a FFP drop meant 90% of the time you had to skyline,which was allways such a crap tactic,you stuck out like a sore thumb.

Edited by Malavai Fletcher, 27 November 2011 - 04:51 PM.

[verybad]

Ammoguy, on 27 November 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

Limit the number of uses. Jump jet fuel, like weapon ammunition, should not be infinite. Good for reaching a higher vantage point or emergency evade of incoming fire. If they DO decide to make it infinite... make it very hot to use to prevent overuse. It should have a tactical use but not become the "pop tart" tool it became in MW4.

In atmosphere they have infinite use. They simply superheat air with their fusion engine and use it as rockets. They carry limited fuel for non atmospheric use.

[Strayed]

They should behave differently on different planets. Low gravity, less acceleration. Higher Gravity, slower acceleration

[Tweaks]

I voted "Other".

I think that Jump jets should work as per canon, which means the following (based on http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jump_Jets):

• Jump Jets would not work underwater.
  
• Jump Jets would create a lot of heat buildup (more than running), and therefore could not be sustained for more than a few seconds even on light 'Mechs
  
• Thrust vectoring would depend on the 'Mech model. 'Mechs with Jump Jet exhausts in their legs or feet would be able to vector their thrust more precisely, but 'Mechs with only Jump Jets mounted on their back as a backpack module would be able to go up and forward only. Of course, the inertia of a 'Mech (whether it's standing still or running) should have an impact on the vector of the jump. (i.e. just like running before a jump makes you jump further)
  
• Damaged legs or gyros could cause your 'Mech to tumble over upon landing.
  
• Aiming would become very difficult in mid-air due to the heavy vibrations and heat effect created by the Jump Jets. It would also not be advisable to fire an energy based weapon while jump jetting anyway due to heat build-up.
  
• Jump Jet fuel would be limited except in oxygenated atmospheres. Once all the reaction mass has been used, your 'Mech would no longer be able to Jump Jet. The size of the reaction mass tank should depend on the 'Mech model and customizations. How much of it it takes to jump would depend on the total weight of the 'Mech. That also implies that it would take more reaction mass to jump on planets with stronger gravity.

Edited by Tweaks, 27 November 2011 - 05:20 PM.

[Tierloc]

To be honest, if you're going to make using JJ's detrimental, then it might as well be auto-assist because noone is going to use it. I'm not sure what the tactical advantage is of rotational, left right down if you can't do anything when you're up there. Maybe only once if they decide to limit the pool, and then if you do try to DFA someone, you can't shoot anybody but your getting pegged from everyone on the ground. There could be a longer/slower recharge period, damage for falling too far, occasional failures like misfires that burn too long or don't at all, etc.

Just attacking one style of play in the current game is alot of sacrifice to good gameplay because a few noobs don't know how to eat a poptart but found the forums.

[Kudzu]

Tierloc, on 27 November 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

I'm not sure what the tactical advantage is of rotational, left right down if you can't do anything when you're up there.

Well, let's see what I can come up with off the top of my head:

• Escape a bad situation.
  
• Close in on a target quickly.
  
• Approach from an unusual direction, thus gaining surprise.
  
• Leap over terrain features that would slow you down or are impassable.

Jump jets are for more than pop tarting.

[Tierloc]

Kudzu, on 27 November 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

Well, let's see what I can come up with off the top of my head:

• Escape a bad situation.
  
• Close in on a target quickly.
  
• Approach from an unusual direction, thus gaining surprise.
  
• Leap over terrain features that would slow you down or are impassable.

Jump jets are for more than pop tarting.

You can do all of those things with Up/UpForward/UpBackward. It also seems like you could still jump up and down. This isn't Armored Core, jumping laterally and hovering while rotating are silly. Limiting the use or benefit of JJ's makes the extra development of added directions useless.

[verybad]

Tweaks, on 27 November 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:

I voted "Other".

I think that Jump jets should work as per canon, which means the following (based on http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jump_Jets):

• Jump Jets would not work underwater.

Board game rules wise this is true, there are instances of them being used in water however. I think it would be a pointless restriction. Probably not many deeper than mech height locations in any case.

Quote

• Jump Jets would create a lot of heat buildup (more than running), and therefore could not be sustained for more than a few seconds even on light 'Mechs

They don't build up THAT much heat in the game, and it's simpler to have them just lose internal pressure as the engine can't heat mass fast enough.

Quote

• Thrust vectoring would depend on the 'Mech model. 'Mechs with Jump Jet exhausts in their legs or feet would be able to vector their thrust more precisely, but 'Mechs with only Jump Jets mounted on their back as a backpack module would be able to go up and forward only. Of course, the inertia of a 'Mech (whether it's standing still or running) should have an impact on the vector of the jump. (i.e. just like running before a jump makes you jump further)

OK, though I don't think the Leg idea is necessary, mroe detail than needs to be devoted to this (it's a short development time after all) I do want inertia to affect it though.

Quote

• Damaged legs or gyros could cause your 'Mech to tumble over upon landing.
  
• Aiming would become very difficult in mid-air due to the heavy vibrations and heat effect created by the Jump Jets. It would also not be advisable to fire an energy based weapon while jump jetting anyway due to heat build-up.

OK to damaged leg/gyro effect. As for firing while jumping, simply make it more inaccurate. Give you something to do with Gyros, better gyros let you fire more accurately during a jump...I'll take 3!

Quote

• Jump Jet fuel would be limited except in oxygenated atmospheres. Once all the reaction mass has been used, your 'Mech would no longer be able to Jump Jet. The size of the reaction mass tank should depend on the 'Mech model and customizations. How much of it it takes to jump would depend on the total weight of the 'Mech. That also implies that it would take more reaction mass to jump on planets with stronger gravity.

Oxygen has nothing to do with the fuel. It's simply superheated gas being used like a rocket. The fusion engine it's being heated by doesn't care if it's Oxygen or Methane. Unessecary detail. Fuel should be limited in non atmospheric conditions (if there are any) I doubt there will be non earth type atmospheres on any maps to begin with.

Edited by verybad, 27 November 2011 - 06:05 PM.

[Kudzu]

Tierloc, on 27 November 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

You can do all of those things with Up/UpForward/UpBackward. It also seems like you could still jump up and down. This isn't Armored Core, jumping laterally and hovering while rotating are silly. Limiting the use or benefit of JJ's makes the extra development of added directions useless.

How is only firing your left side JJ's to make a lateral move left silly? Or firing one side slightly stronger than the other to rotate your facing while jumping? I'm not talking about pulling crazy martial arts moves in the air, just basic maneuvers.

[Raeven]

Skating ala MW2.. no. Full jumpjet control ala MPBT or MPBT:3025. Yea. You coud jump backwards or forwards for momentum. You rotated to change directions. Aiming should be a little worse, but I honestly think the act of changing your elevation in an instant makes it worse as it is.

[Tierloc]

Kudzu, on 27 November 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

How is only firing your left side JJ's to make a lateral move left silly? Or firing one side slightly stronger than the other to rotate your facing while jumping? I'm not talking about pulling crazy martial arts moves in the air, just basic maneuvers.

Let's ignore torso twist and think we need rotation. How would you handle momentum forward landing with a rotated chassis? Would they simply fall over sideways? Start running in a different direction upon landing? Slide along the ground to a stop or immovable object? The same question goes for lateral jumps.

Other than "jetpacking around", the motion is completely unnecessary.

[ManDaisy]

Rotation has a bunch of uses slightly above ground and in the air too. Personally I like the idea of rotation because it will give light mechs that much more advanced pilot maneuvers over heavy non jump capable mechs. For Light mechs movement advantage is the only thing keeping them alive.

Some uses I can think of are;

Say you jump past you opponent and want to shoot him in the back. Say you are running past your opponent but want to do a quick 360 while still going strait.

Run jump, spin, fire, reface strait continue to run.
Run jump, spin, land with a different facing, continue to run in new facing direction -->abrubtly changes direction of attack, consequently you dodge an alphastrike.

Skidding would be the ideal solution if anyone has a problem with rotation and fighting inertia.
Allowing skidding would also enable another advanced pilot maneuver... Mechanized drifting. Chew on that.

Edited by ManDaisy, 27 November 2011 - 07:15 PM.

[Kudzu]

Tierloc, on 27 November 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

Let's ignore torso twist and think we need rotation.

Let's ignore a common use that's been around in the BTU since the 80's and think we know anything about Battletech.

Quote

How would you handle momentum forward landing with a rotated chassis? Would they simply fall over sideways? Start running in a different direction upon landing? Slide along the ground to a stop or immovable object? The same question goes for lateral jumps.

You realize that you can use your jets to adjust or cancel out the momentum you built up, right?

Quote

Other than "jetpacking around", the motion is completely unnecessary.

I read that as "I really never thought that JJ's where mainly for maneuvering because I only used them to pop tart."