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TAG and NARC - working logically?


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#1 WardenWolf

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:40 PM

I was wondering what the general impression of the community is as far as TAG and NARC goes. Currently, it appears to be the following:

TAG - A laser which you hit a target with, and once hit the target will remain targetable for an extended time and LRMs will home-in on that mech more accurately. I am not sure of the exact duration, but it appears* to extend well beyond the time the laser is actively being fired.

NARC - A similar effect, fired from a missile. Again, I am unsure of the duration of the effect but it seems to be far less used.

Now, neither of these seems logical to me. I would have expected the NARC to act along these lines, but to last until the mech is destroyed or the beacon it plants is blown off (for example, if it landed on an arm and that arm was destroyed). If that is not how it functions, why not?

TAG is what I am more interested in, though, since this is based on current laser-guided missile tech. In real life, as I understand it, the laser has to be maintained until the missile(s) impact: the missiles are homeing-in on the laser itself, after all. To me, that is how I would have expected TAG to work: whatever object the TAG is hitting, whether a mech or a building or the ground, that is where all of the missiles using that for targeting should impact.

If that is how it worked, it seems like this would give more distinction between the two weapon aides. NARC would be 'fire and forget', but ammo-limited and heavier. TAG would require more work by the targeting pilot / mech, but weighs less. Also, it would let TAG do some interesting things: if you expected an enemy mech to move out from cover, you could guide missiles to the location you think he will pop out (which is otherwise nearly impossible right now).

So, what do you folks in the community think? If I am mistaken on how the current mechanics of these items work, please correct me!

*Disclaimer: I am not a scout mech pilot, nor do I often run LRM-heavy mechs (though I have one variant I keep around for that purpose). As such I don't have a lot of hands-on experience with these weapons. My interest here is as a normal player not tied to either of these roles, and as someone wanting to make sure each item in the game has a place it fits and is usable - while also following, at least loosely, the way the 'real world' works.

#2 Lowridah

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:43 PM

TAG is working fine

#3 DocBach

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:47 PM

NARC is working terribly - if it made a 'Mech lockable even without LOS for a much longer period of time, it'd be a lot more useful.

#4 WardenWolf

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:49 PM

View PostDocBach, on 31 October 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

NARC is working terribly - if it made a 'Mech lockable even without LOS for a much longer period of time, it'd be a lot more useful.

Oh, is it not doing that? What is the duration on it at the moment?

View PostLowridah, on 31 October 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

TAG is working fine

Can you elaborate?

#5 ScientificMethod

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:55 PM

View PostDocBach, on 31 October 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

NARC is working terribly - if it made a 'Mech lockable even without LOS for a much longer period of time, it'd be a lot more useful.

What he said. As it is I use lrms and I think things are mostly fine on this front. I would like to see Narc act a little differently than tag however just for uniqueness.

#6 Keisuke Nagisa

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

I think both are working fine, though narc only last like 30 sec to a minute so you have to have good communication for it to work. For tag I don't think the missiles track to the beam they just cluster tighter to the target being tagged. Honestly tag alone in the hands of a skilled scout with lrm support is pretty devastating as most missiles end up hitting the center and right and left torso. With Narc added in the missiles will track towards the pod or just cluster tighter (not sure which). I personally witnessed an LRM 15 hit a target i narced and tagged and they all hit the CT.

I think tag and narc make missiles way too powerful in the right hands. They need to implement guardian ECM (the bubble will disable tag and narc and disable streak locks I believe) in order to balance it out.

Edited by Keisuke Nagisa, 31 October 2012 - 02:00 PM.


#7 Zyllos

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

I agree, the differences between TAG/NARC are negligable. But I am sure the devs know this. Personally, here is my opinion on the differences between TAG/NARC:

TAG increases the accuracy of already guided missiles. So SSRMs and LRMs should have greater accuracy against a target that is TAGed.

NARC provides a target for lock outside LoS. This should last a long time (3 minutes?) but can be removed with an EMP burst (close ranged shot from a PPC). This does not increase the accuracy of any guided missiles.

#8 Lowridah

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:59 PM

View PostWardenWolf, on 31 October 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Oh, is it not doing that? What is the duration on it at the moment?


Can you elaborate?


I would elaborate but a fellow poster did so right after you asked. He nailed it.

#9 WardenWolf

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 02:16 PM

Thanks for the feedback and info, guys! :)

#10 MouseNo4

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 02:34 PM

TAG seems to work perfectly. LRM boats are loving me.

NARC seriously needs some work to fix them.
1. Lag badly affects them. Both on the firing mech and the target. Fire it point blank, and only 50% chance it will both hit AND activate.
2. LRM boats dont seem to even notice a mech lit up with the NARC beacon.
3. The NARC beacon needs to be active long enough for LRM boats to successfully have their missiles land, before it expires.

#11 General Taskeen

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:21 PM

The simple answer is no, TAG/NARC are currently not working as intended. It was stated, by the Devs, when it was first introduced in a Closed Beta patch that it was only a "basic" implementation. So expect changes further down the road.

And for a long answer on what NARC/TAG really do in-case anyway wants to know:

Narc - http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Narc

The Narc Missile Beacon is a missile homing utility that can be planted on enemy targets, causing friendly SRMs and LRM missiles (even those that do not traditionally have homing capabilities) to lock on to them. They are particularly useful when used in tandem with LRMs.

Causing quite a stir when it was introduced in 2587, the Narc system offered a radically different way of improve missile target acquisition. The Narc launcher fires special missiles called pods, which have a powerful homing beacon behind a magnetic head.

The reason the Narc system is superior to the similar Artemis IV FCS is that the target lock is never broken because the homing beacon is attached to the target, and that other friendly 'Mechs can fire missiles equipped to follow the signal without carrying their own Narc beacons.

However the Narc system is not without flaws, the main one being its short range. Narc equipped LRMs have double the range of a Narc pod, requiring either a dedicated spotter to close and tag enemies with Narc pods or for the launching 'Mech to close, tag and pull back to fire, a less than ideal arrangement. Also SRMs and LRMs equipped to track the Narc homing signal cost twice as much as standard munitions. These disadvantages led to the creation of alternate Narc ammunition such as the Explosive Pod to give the launcher more tactical flexibility and the Improved Narc Missile Beacon offering increased the range.

TAG - http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

Target Acquisition Gear is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. The system was first introduced by the Terran Hegemony in 2600, but it became Lostech during the Succession Wars until it was recovered by the Federated Suns in 3033. TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or Semi-Guided LRM munitions.




So basically, TAG works exactly like NARC, except it requires the pilot to constantly have a laser beam on target. Kind of like how modern soldiers "paint" targets, with special gear, for air support to drop in pin-point munitions. Currently, its basic implementation offers no advantages to unguided SRMs and LRMs, even though that is what they are for.

The counter to TAG/NARC is Friendly units using ECM, which is also not implemented (and when it is, it will first be "basic").

Edited by General Taskeen, 31 October 2012 - 06:23 PM.


#12 Sirous

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:07 PM

NARC has issues,

Lasts 15 seconds, must keep line of sight, missile velocity makes it almost impossible to hit a moving mech, missile hit detection is worse than any other weapon in the game. Weight and Ammo/Ton serious drawbacks for use on just about any mech.

Launcher
3 Tons
2 Critical Slots

Ammo 6/Ton

For the Weight, cost, Ammo/ton
NARC with the fact that you MUST keep line of sight during the entire 15 second duration it is not worth it. It has serious limitations.

So far the only good thing about the NARC is the fact it is on the 3ML Raven, which means when you take off the NARC and add an LRM20, it just fires one rocket at a time. Good times there.

#13 Rifter

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:08 PM

TAG yes, NARC is a joke.

#14 verybad

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:17 PM

TAG = useful, NARC = garbage IMO.

#15 EDMW CSN

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:43 PM

Narc is a joke. It should allow LRMs boat to lock on without LOS for at least a minute.
Before you scream OP, there is ECM.

Cos at it stands now, the NARC is a waste of tonnage.

#16 Hades Trooper

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

ok as a scout pilot narc is a waste of space and weight. last for a set period of time and the difference between narc and tag is narc will work even if the target is not being fired upon by the mech with it.

Tag you need to keep the laser on target.

You don't need to have these working before the lrms fire.

As my group was doing they would call out a target, they'd fire there lrms, i'd hit the target with my tag and i would see missiles do 90 degree right turns to lock on the target.

both narc and tag makes missiles group tighter and also hit with more missiles and missiles will make tighter turns and chase mechs better. this applies for all missiles types, lrm, srm and streaks.

A scout mech with ams can shoot down and dodge most lrm fire, if there tagged then there dead meat but just don't know it yet.

this was done using a 4 man team with 8 lrm 15's and i was tagging,

#17 Digital Ninja

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:37 PM

TAG doesn't last "well beyond" when the laser stops. It lasts like 2 or 3 seconds beyond. Barely long enough to lead a SRM volley and have time to get the laser back on target.

NARC are completely useless. It weights as much as a SRM6, each ton of ammo barely gives you any ammo and the duration is way too short. It's also really hard to land hits with since the projectile moves so slow. Even if the above weren't the case, it would still be useless since the LoS requirement makes them basically a heavier version of TAG that uses ammo.


View PostHades Trooper, on 31 October 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

both narc and tag makes missiles group tighter and also hit with more missiles and missiles will make tighter turns and chase mechs better. this applies for all missiles types, lrm, srm and streaks.

Speaking from experience, it doesn't do jack for SRMs.

Edited by Digital Ninja, 31 October 2012 - 09:44 PM.


#18 p00k

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:47 PM

View PostDigital Ninja, on 31 October 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

TAG doesn't last "well beyond" when the laser stops. It lasts like 2 or 3 seconds beyond.


if i read the game files correctly, just 1 second, vs 15 for the narc as some1 stated earlier

#19 SHORTZ

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:56 PM

what i would like to know is why they have made TAG weigh 1 tonne as opposed to the 0.5 tonnes it was originally. as we have said this sort of technology already exists in the real world for guiding missles onto target. but do no for a second expect me to believe that it weighs 0.5 tonnes let alone the 1000kg that allegedly it weighs for the MW universe.. i mean it is just a laser light that points at a target, that sort of thing can be handheld in real life. small lasers, being a destructive focused beam i can understand, but not just a little targeting laser. i think they should decrease the tonnage again back to 0.5. and yeah fix the narc beacon it is just not worth its weight

#20 ShastaBlasta

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

I havn't messed with NARC or TAG yet, but am curious, If all you do is paint the target with it, and do no damage by other means, do you still get assists?





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