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Please do not try to balance Clan tech, and here's why...


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#1 Connor Macleod

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:07 AM

There are many other ways to balance the Clans and Inner Sphere. Now I know, many of you might think that I'm just another Clan fanatic who'll jump into a Timber Wolf the first chance I get. That's not necessarily the case. In fact I'm going to strap myself into the cockpit of the hopefully soon to be confirmed Enforcer (Or Centurion if the Enforcer never enters the game) with duck tape and Gorilla Glue and I ain't leavin the Davions for anything... Okay well I may leave for a Marauder and a nice fat paycheck from the Gray Death Legion or Northwind Highlanders, but for the most part I'm strictly Davion, baby! Anyways, I digress.

The point is, Balancing Clan weaponry just feels... wrong. The Clans were ungodly powerful. But there is a way to balance the Clans, a way that was exploited in canon and that's this: The Clans hate teamwork. They're all about the individual honor, the ways of Trials, Zellbrigen, etc. Yes they were divided into units, but Clan battles are usually one-on-one or one-on- as many as they can take out. Give Clan MechWarriors penalties for utilizing teamwork. Kill steals decreases honor and might make you a target to both friend and foe. Force the Clans to fight individually. Give no rewards or bonuses that rely on their teammates. That way, they'll need all the advanced tech just to stay alive, because lets face it, nothing can survive an onslaught of an entire company working together to bring down two Stars.

Is my idea completely and totally well thought out? Well, not really, no. And I'm sure that there are other topics saying the same thing, but it's 3 in the godd***ed morning, and I'm too lazy to look for them right now. However, my idea keeps with canon and satisfies both parties on either side of the fence. Anyways, if you have any better suggestions, please let me know.

#2 TheKillerWolf

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:17 AM

or they could go with the "We are the clans we dont lose" and put a RIDIC maintain cost on clan tech ie if you lose the cost sets you back alot. that and a heavy cost to start.

#3 The Cheese

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:26 AM

You're new to this 'online gaming' thing, aren't you.

Teamwork isn't as common as you seem to believe.

#4 MajorLeeHung

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

The only way I could see "not balancing" clan tech is to make a "clan mode" 12 IS vs 4 Clan. Cheese has a good point but lets face it: were here to win and advance so ppl are gonna work together even if there hit with penalties and such cus, in the end most herp derpers want that +1 to the win column even if they end up losing XP and c-bills. cus ya know, wins measure skill. every time. seriously.

Edited by MajorLeeHung, 08 April 2012 - 12:49 AM.


#5 LordDeathStrike

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:33 AM

View PostConnor Macleod, on 08 April 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

There are many other ways to balance the Clans and Inner Sphere. Now I know, many of you might think that I'm just another Clan fanatic who'll jump into a Timber Wolf the first chance I get. That's not necessarily the case. In fact I'm going to strap myself into the cockpit of the hopefully soon to be confirmed Enforcer (Or Centurion if the Enforcer never enters the game) with duck tape and Gorilla Glue and I ain't leavin the Davions for anything... Okay well I may leave for a Marauder and a nice fat paycheck from the Gray Death Legion or Northwind Highlanders, but for the most part I'm strictly Davion, baby! Anyways, I digress.

The point is, Balancing Clan weaponry just feels... wrong. The Clans were ungodly powerful. But there is a way to balance the Clans, a way that was exploited in canon and that's this: The Clans hate teamwork. They're all about the individual honor, the ways of Trials, Zellbrigen, etc. Yes they were divided into units, but Clan battles are usually one-on-one or one-on- as many as they can take out. Give Clan MechWarriors penalties for utilizing teamwork. Kill steals decreases honor and might make you a target to both friend and foe. Force the Clans to fight individually. Give no rewards or bonuses that rely on their teammates. That way, they'll need all the advanced tech just to stay alive, because lets face it, nothing can survive an onslaught of an entire company working together to bring down two Stars.

Is my idea completely and totally well thought out? Well, not really, no. And I'm sure that there are other topics saying the same thing, but it's 3 in the godd***ed morning, and I'm too lazy to look for them right now. However, my idea keeps with canon and satisfies both parties on either side of the fence. Anyways, if you have any better suggestions, please let me know.


its not the clan weaponry itself thats the issue, sure 20%-40% greater range is nice, but not insurmountable. what ***** us over, is the fact that clan omnimechs can carry 2x the weapons effectively giveing them 2x our firepower with 20-40% range increase, while having 2-3x stronger armor with ferro fiberous, and being faster at the same time.

we dont need to nerf clan er weapons, we just need to give IS the same access to tech at the same time clans come into the game. keep the field even without messing with team sizes and all that, its a reboot after all, nothing says we cant discover the lostech and get on an even playing field as they come at us.

#6 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:57 AM

Ehm...Level 2 Clan stuff =/= Level 2 IS stuff. Thats still not balanced.

#7 Kay Allard Liao

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:32 AM

The idea is quite good, but not so well thought, cause if the innere sphere works together the clans are allowed to do so too. cause the rules of Zellbrigen are broken by the IS the Clans are alowed to work together without losing honor

#8 Stormwolf

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:00 AM

View PostLordDeathStrike, on 08 April 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:


its not the clan weaponry itself thats the issue, sure 20%-40% greater range is nice, but not insurmountable. what ***** us over, is the fact that clan omnimechs can carry 2x the weapons effectively giveing them 2x our firepower with 20-40% range increase, while having 2-3x stronger armor with ferro fiberous, and being faster at the same time.

we dont need to nerf clan er weapons, we just need to give IS the same access to tech at the same time clans come into the game. keep the field even without messing with team sizes and all that, its a reboot after all, nothing says we cant discover the lostech and get on an even playing field as they come at us.


I think that is a really bad suggestion since it would immediatly render IS tech obsolete.

There should be a numerical game gamebalance here like 5 vs 12 or a tonnage cap like 200 tons of Clan tech vs 300 ~ 390 IS tech.
Ofcourse a bidding system would greatly reduce tech abuse as well, I hope that the newbies are going to catch on quickly here.

View PostKay Allard Liao, on 08 April 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

The idea is quite good, but not so well thought, cause if the innere sphere works together the clans are allowed to do so too. cause the rules of Zellbrigen are broken by the IS the Clans are alowed to work together without losing honor


Downright abuse of Zellbrigen would result in a free for all, but most Clan warriors would still try to take down as many opponents as possible to rack up on honorpoints.

#9 El Loco

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:07 AM

I'm for a bidding system as well... maybe not done actively but as a given parameter of the scenario. I.e. you're facing a series of battles strecthed over the planet facing an entire battalion of IS 'Mechs, but you're allowed to field only a trinary. Because the three fights are supposed to be done simultaneously, the Clan commander has to divide his/her forces... resulting in 3 battles of 12v5 each. It's just a rough idea, but it is better than giving us IS pilots access to advanced lvl2 equipment instantaneously.

#10 Adridos

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:30 AM

There will be less of them and they will use Zellbringen. Combine that with the need of high honor (so even fight honourably when IS "cheats") to get the mechs that really sweep the floor with ours and we should come out quite balanced. We will just stick with that and make additional improvements when the time comes. :)

#11 Suskis

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:51 AM

One of the best ways to balance Clans vs IS would be to have a good melee combat system, that, sadly, the devs said we won't have.
Clans loathe melee, while some IS mechs where purposedly built around melee combat. In urban settings this would mean the longer range Clans have is not useful and the IS melee capabilities can be used at max.

#12 Aegis Kleais

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:58 AM

View PostThe Cheese, on 08 April 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Teamwork isn't as common as you seem to believe.

Too true.

When I played some BF2 MP that forced players into "squads", I had thought that this concept alone would help force teamwork; but it did no such thing. Unless 4+ people are on voice comms, you're not going to see lances moving together. And it is THAT aspect which will help those moving as a pack pick off free roaming players one at a time.

#13 Rip Calkin

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:13 AM

What's the best way to balance Clans? ... don't include them and their tech. Simple enough, and the game will be JUST as fun as a pure IS conflict.

I don't understand why people HAVE to have their precious ER PPC... I truly enjoyed the 'old school' 3025 era tech that was all that existed in the original boxed BattleTech game.

#14 StaggerCheck

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:06 AM

I think a great way to do this would be to reward players who are having a hard time with the game, either through their connection speed or lack of skill/reflexes, with Clan transfers. That way these players are given MUCH better equipment to fight in, which should keep them interested in the game and keep them coming back. They'll win fights instead of getting pounded to dust each and every time. On the Inner Sphere side, we'd be fighting Mechs that badly outgun us, but perhaps the player controlling them is not amazing. Now things are balanced for everyone. To avoid great players from tanking on purpose, the devs keep this a secret until the Clans arrive. If players REALLY want to play Clan Mechs they can do so, but they roll new pilots when they do so. So, in short... Great players pay a penalty to move to Clans, Inner Sphere players who are happy playing as Inner Sphere players keep the status quo, and players having trouble with the game are transferred to Clan space [if they wish] and given higher incentive to remain in the game. Win win win.

#15 Diomed

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:04 AM

I agree that for now, since the game is set before the Clan Invasion, we can simply do without Clan tech.

But, what do we do later if we want to add that dramatic piece of Battletech history, into the game? What is wrong with using BV to balance the teams? If one side gets a very powerful clan mech then the other team gets the same BV in lesser units, or another clan mech. As long as both teams have the same BV isn't it as close to fair as we can expect?

Also, make clan tech expensive to buy and expensive to own.

#16 Geist Null

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:21 AM

i just cant see it happening.. the clans technology levels are too strong and people by nature are too untrustworthy no mtter how many WOTs they write up claiming to be otherwise.

Edited by Geist Null, 08 April 2012 - 08:21 AM.


#17 Bren

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:33 AM

Repost of mine from another thread, but oh well . . .

View PostVirgil Caine, on 10 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Question. How do you "code" for "Playing Dirty". How does the computer server know which clanner is playing dirty and which is not? Further, any system created, will be abused. I guarantee that as well. Computers have no ingenuity. Humans with Ingenuity WILL break the system.

A few years ago, I would have been on board with you. But after playing Teamfortress 2 and seeing some of the requirements for achievements there, Clan Honour being coded into a game certainly isn't outside the realm of possibility. I'm not sure how familiar with the game you are (so these might not make any sense), but here are a few examples:

a) Heavy Achievement Soviet Block - While invulnerable and on defense, block an invulnerable enemy Heavy's movement.
b) Engie Achievement Frontier Justice - Have your sentry kill the enemy that just killed you within 10 seconds.
c) Spy Achievement Joint Operation - Sap an enemy Sentry Gun within 3 seconds of a teammate sapping another.
d) Medic Achievement Trauma Queen - Deploy 3 Ubercharges in less than 5 minutes, and assist in 5 kills during that time.

The complexity of achieving some of these Teamfortress milestones is definately on par with most, if not all Clan rules of engagement. I think it's doable.

View PostVirgil Caine, on 10 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

You balance a game by limiting tools, not by limiting behavior.


What Bryan Ekman (Owner/Creative Director of Piranha Games Inc) had to say:

One of the cool things about the Clans is, if you actually play-or RP-the Clans correctly, it actually creates a lot of artificial limits and a natural order of balance in the universe. That's one thing that we're looking at examining as part of MWO is in bringing in some of those restrictions that the Clans have as a part of their honour system to help balance out combat, and the fact that they have far superior weaponry than the Inner Sphere does.

One of the things is, since MechWarrior Online is all about 'carrots' (rewarding players for activities that they do well) if a player is a Clanner and he goes up against an Inner Sphere target, if through an in-game action says "I'm gunna challenge you, I'm gunna fight you one on one" and actually achieves that, we can reward him appropriately. Whereas, if he just picks random targets, destroys a bunch of people and maybe gangs up on people, he doesn't get rewarded as much.

Let's get the players to play optimally, the way we want them to play, and encourage behavior that we want them to do, and give them rewards for doing it that way, rather than just letting them do whatever, and rewarding them for that as well.

Edited by Bren, 08 April 2012 - 08:34 AM.


#18 Siilk

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:53 AM

The best(and pretty much the only) way to balance clan tech is price(and hence BV) and availability. Any clan tech should be very expensive, both to acquire and to maintain, at least 150% more expensive than similar IS tech. And even if you get the cbills, you could probably wait days for clan tech you want to buy(or spare parts for clan tech you want to repair) to become be available. IS tech, on the other hand, could always be there if you got the cache.

As for balancing a Clan vs IS games, the best way is, again, team battle value. Having same battle value limit for both teams would mean either Clan team forced to have less players(as have been suggested above), or their mechs being of a lighter weight class(with IS fielding a bunch of heavies or even assaults, Clan team of similar number of players would be limited to mostly lights and mediums with only a couple of heavier mechs).

#19 Reno Blade

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:58 AM

i think if the clans get a multiplicator based on the bid (like less tonnage vs the IS troops = bigger multiplicator) we can increase the reward for real clan playstyle and lower the reward for bad balanced bids.

Imagine you go 10 medium clan mechs vs 12 heavy and assault IS mechs you get a 1.0 multiplicator, if you go above you get between 0.8 and 0.4 multiplicator and if you bid lower, you can get a 1.2 to 2.5 multiplicator.
this way, you could get realy nice scores if you go against greater force with lower number and tonnage on your clan side.

if you win everytime because you fight with 12x 100 ton clan mechs, you get so low honor, its not realy a honorable victory. this would mean, there is no real benefit in winning if you do it the "easy and dishonorable way" !
that concept could even be used with other reward amounts for IS troops and mercs for lower drop costs, or something.

#20 eZZip

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:06 AM

View PostReno Blade, on 08 April 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

i think if the clans get a multiplicator based on the bid (like less tonnage vs the IS troops = bigger multiplicator) we can increase the reward for real clan playstyle and lower the reward for bad balanced bids.

View PostStaggerCheck, on 08 April 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I think a great way to do this would be to reward players who are having a hard time with the game, either through their connection speed or lack of skill/reflexes, with Clan transfers.
Metagame balancing is not truly balancing a game, and is easily abused or ignored. In practice, people avoid handicapping themselves even if it costs them more cash later, because they don't play so that they can bid; they play for the fun of the action.

View PostConnor Macleod, on 08 April 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Yes they were divided into units, but Clan battles are usually one-on-one or one-on- as many as they can take out. Give Clan MechWarriors penalties for utilizing teamwork. Kill steals decreases honor and might make you a target to both friend and foe. Force the Clans to fight individually. Give no rewards or bonuses that rely on their teammates. That way, they'll need all the advanced tech just to stay alive, because lets face it, nothing can survive an onslaught of an entire company working together to bring down two Stars.
This would only be an annoying gameplay mechanic, and it's doubtful that players would consistently follow through with it (other game example: in America's Army 3, there is an honour system (e.g., don't shoot incapacitated, alive enemies) but players violate it for a victory (in the same example, such enemies can be revived; shooting them prevents that)). I'm not sure that clan warriors (in terms of canon) would continue to fight honourably with the IS when IS warriors constantly do the opposite.





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