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Please do not try to balance Clan tech, and here's why...


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#21 MajorLeeHung

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:11 AM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 08 April 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I think a great way to do this would be to reward players who are having a hard time with the game, either through their connection speed or lack of skill/reflexes, with Clan transfers. That way these players are given MUCH better equipment to fight in, which should keep them interested in the game and keep them coming back. They'll win fights instead of getting pounded to dust each and every time. On the Inner Sphere side, we'd be fighting Mechs that badly outgun us, but perhaps the player controlling them is not amazing. Now things are balanced for everyone. To avoid great players from tanking on purpose, the devs keep this a secret until the Clans arrive. If players REALLY want to play Clan Mechs they can do so, but they roll new pilots when they do so. So, in short... Great players pay a penalty to move to Clans, Inner Sphere players who are happy playing as Inner Sphere players keep the status quo, and players having trouble with the game are transferred to Clan space [if they wish] and given higher incentive to remain in the game. Win win win.


This is a horrid idea....

/starttroll

OMG I get clan tech faster if I play bad?!? *troll face* Ok Ill make a new free account *bigger troll face* then Ill tank the games/scores of everyone I play with *huge troll face* till I get clan tech then Ill start playing right and beating the holy living **** out of everything like a boss.....

BUWHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!

/endtroll

Just saying it could be abused and I know for a fact competitive players would intentionally tank there scores in "crap IS mechs" to get there precious clan tech faster cus they only care about there score with said clan tech.

#22 GrimFist

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:14 AM

Let me make a point here.

The devs have already said they will reserve some unit names and the big players. If we are following the timeline and what not, consider this.

All you Innersphere folks, all of you clanners. Your all secondary characters in the big scope of things. The Invasion happens and guess what. You did not take part in the big battles. You missed out on all the mayhem.

Now fast forward. All the second line units are now getting called up. All the mercanries hundreds of planets over are getting new contracts. The clanners have brought up their reserves.

Let me make one point clear. None of you are the tip of the spear. Your out on the outside edge of all the politics all of the planning. So we as mechwarriors will fight on a hundred backwater planets that don't change the course of events for all of us fortune tellers and those who know the history of the BT universe.

By the time we get to mess with clan tech. Both sides have acess to double heat sinks, better engines, better armor. Clan mechs wil have some edge. I dont care. With smart use of terrain, you limit that edge.

I'm looking forward to see what they do.

Semper Fi

Grim

Edited by GrimFist, 08 April 2012 - 09:15 AM.


#23 Orzorn

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:17 AM

The developers have already expressed interest in including mechanics to simulate Zellbrigen.

I also agree with the idea behind Reno Blade's post about bidding. Clans should have to do a batchall when they want to attack a planet, with multipliers raising the less units they use. This would encourage players to use as few mechs as possible.

#24 GaussDragon

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:03 AM

I gotta go with Reno's suggestion too. You have to make the multiplier for having tonnage parity be really punitive, otherwise people are going to want the 'W' more than the points/C-bills. If anything, make the points really lucrative for heavily handicapped matches... actually as I write that last one that seems like a so-so idea because the really good players may start to get far more wealthy than everyone else a little too quickly (I'm not a fan of inflation problems) by steamrolling the newbiest players. In any case I like this multiplier system on paper since it is an incentivization system or as a Bryan puts it, "a carrot". Perhaps track player performance metrics so that the system can aggregate it by team so that we can get a skill-adjusted multiplier to countervail possible newbie-hunting problems.

#25 Vollstrecker

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:41 AM

Don't forget that early in the invasion, the Clans stuck to Zellbrigen even if the Inner Sphere "fought dirty" for the most part. It wasn't until they started to lose major battles that they saw a need to modify their tactics on the subject (using Smoke Jaguars and Jade Falcons as an example).

For practicality, implement a way for Clanners to "call out" a target as theirs so that it shows on all allied IFF transponders, and ensure that they can only call one target at a time. Give them significant bonus honor for destroying their target proportionate to relative weight classes (so a Dire Wolf doesn't get much for slaughtering scout designs). To prevent griefing or abuse, give it to them if they did 2/3's of the total damage to the destroyed target so a teammate has to work to deprive another of their bonus and so they can't just tag a 'mech that was almost killed previously for full honor.

I'd love to see a true batchall system implemented, but it has too many disadvantages to likely be implemented. The first is that those who lose the bid are effectively being prevented from playing (which is bad all-around) if they get sat out. On top of that, it encourages reckless bidding just to be able to play, which likely will result in some seriously un-Clanlike tactics in order to have a chance of winning (you saw this a lot with Clan units using Battle Value in tabletop).

The only real way I could see anything like that working is giving an honor bonus for not using your full allowable drop-weight/cost/whatever balancing mechanic we are using. Make it a decent multiplier or something to make it very profitable for savvy commanders to do some smart bidding.

#26 FinnMcKool

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:50 AM

makes sense, when the clan comes around they can all be lone wolfs , no Coms , no way of droping with anybody you know, or maybe even no mech lab or even owning your Mech , just insta action , fall into a game in a machine you dont know ...ect.ect.ect.

sure would make it EZ on the devs

And me and my Corp. can steal err... salvage their stuff.

#27 Diomed

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:54 AM

All of these suggestions for Zelbriggen and Batchalls sound great in terms of Battletech Lore but they strike me as very complex and very difficult to code into a game. That does not mean it is impossible but we all know, or should know, that PC games have limited developer cycles. Those cycles are 'spent' on various aspects of the product. Now, if there is enough of this resource to get the game done, on time, relatively bug-free, with all the needed elements to make a good mech game AND give us this wonderful, lore-friendly, matchmaking system then I am all for it.

But...

I look at World of Tanks, this game's closest analog, and I consider it's matchmaker (MM) and I cringe. The WoT MM is one of that game's worst features. The devs over there have decided that complexity and varied matches are more important than a fair match, and it shows. The MM is the thing in which you will catch, or loose, the conscious of the...gamers.

;)

Edited by Diomed, 08 April 2012 - 10:55 AM.


#28 Orzorn

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:57 AM

View PostVollstrecker, on 08 April 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

For practicality, implement a way for Clanners to "call out" a target as theirs so that it shows on all allied IFF transponders, and ensure that they can only call one target at a time.

Now this I like. They could have an additional button that you only get if you're a clanner. Target an enemy -> press the button. If they're already claimed, you'd get a warning stating as much, if they aren't claimed, then you claim them. As you stated, you'd get bonuses for destroying more "honorable" targets. A Dire Wolf picking on a Jenner isn't going to get very much honor.

This mechanic would help enforce Zellbrigen without forcing people to follow it to the letter while also allowing spheroids to take advantage of the Clans tendency to split up, so they could focus down individual clanners. Part of playing the Clans, as a team, would simply be that you need whoever picked a mech as a target to keep ******* them, or else they might try helping one of their allies out. If IS Mech 1 tries to help IS Mech 2, then whoever claimed IS Mech 1 really needs to make them feel the pain so they're forced to turn around and fight them.

However, I do have one general complaint about all of these systems: What happens once the clans have been out long enough that most folks have their own mechs and a decent stack of honor (or whatever "currency" the clans will use to acquire mechs)? Whats the stop the Clanners from throwing Zellbrigen to the wind and just stomping individual mechs with superior tech? Sure, eventually they'll have to return back to the older methods to regenerate their honor for repair, rearm, and new mechs, but I do foresee issues. I'm not saying necessarily that they shouldn't be able to do this, but that they should be rather heavily discouraged from doing so, at least if Clan tech isn't toned down from canon strength.

#29 Pale Rider 010

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:05 AM

My problem with penalizing teamwork is this:

In the past, Mechwarrior games have been about an arms race, as the developers have covered here extensively. There was little incentive to take a light or medium mech, because as fast as you were, an Assault could still core you with one well placed alpha strike. That as not fun. Being a supporting player earned you nothing. If you softened up that assault mech with a barrage of LRMs, but you're not the one who got the killing blow, chances are you got nothing. Also not fun. If team play isn't rewarded, or god forbid penalized, we're back to the old arms race where everyone wants an assault mech, everyone wants to be the hero, and all of the work they're putting into Role Warfare is wasted.

There is another option to help balance overly powerful clan tech. Numbers.

When the clans come, put four lances against a binary. 16 IS mechs, 10 Clan mechs. If that's weighted too heavily in IS favor, three lances (12 mechs) for the IS and 10 clanners. We could even get something in between.

We need to preserve Role Warfare if this game is going to become something really worth playing.

#30 StaggerCheck

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostMajorLeeHung, on 08 April 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:


Just saying it could be abused and I know for a fact competitive players would intentionally tank there scores in "crap IS mechs" to get there precious clan tech faster cus they only care about there score with said clan tech.


The whole premise was built around the player base not knowing that the dev team would do this. In effect, great players would have to play like crap for half a year in an effort to be up for a Clan transfer they know nothing about in the first place. I said as much in the post you quoted, but you must have missed it.

“To avoid great players from tanking on purpose, the devs keep this a secret until the Clans arrive.”

So, without knowing what was going to happen when the Clans came out, the player base would play the game normally. At the end of the half year or whatever, the devs look at the player stats and take the 20% who are doing badly, for whatever reason, and offer them a Clan transfer. This would mean that their pilots transfer to a Clan without suffering any transfer penalty… so whatever gains they have made in the game thus far still hold true. Then any other player who wants to play Clan can do so, but they start at zero Mech and character XP as a Clan player.

#31 Orzorn

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:15 AM

View PostPale Rider 010, on 08 April 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

My problem with penalizing teamwork is this:

In the past, Mechwarrior games have been about an arms race, as the developers have covered here extensively. There was little incentive to take a light or medium mech, because as fast as you were, an Assault could still core you with one well placed alpha strike. That as not fun. Being a supporting player earned you nothing. If you softened up that assault mech with a barrage of LRMs, but you're not the one who got the killing blow, chances are you got nothing. Also not fun. If team play isn't rewarded, or god forbid penalized, we're back to the old arms race where everyone wants an assault mech, everyone wants to be the hero, and all of the work they're putting into Role Warfare is wasted.

There is another option to help balance overly powerful clan tech. Numbers.

When the clans come, put four lances against a binary. 16 IS mechs, 10 Clan mechs. If that's weighted too heavily in IS favor, three lances (12 mechs) for the IS and 10 clanners. We could even get something in between.

We need to preserve Role Warfare if this game is going to become something really worth playing.

Role Warfare doesn't exactly have to exclude Zelbrigen, but the roles are markedly different for clans. A defender in an IS lance would use its charging capabilities to interrupt another mech wailing on its lance mate, but in a Zellbrigen environment, you'd see the defender mech "call" heavier mechs and intentionally get in their way to ensure they don't engage his/her binary mates, but you would not likely see a defender mech interrupt a fight, as that would be against Zellbrigen.

However, there would have to be some concessions, since Zellbrigen says that area of effect weapons are prohibited, and no indirect fire is allowed (along with C3 and TAG lasers), so certain scouting roles would pretty much be out.

I understand wanting to keep roles, and I do to, but I also want Clans to actually FEEL like Clans. In every past game the Clans were just the bigger dudes with the better tech with none of the drawbacks of coming from an extremely alien society. I want players to actually experience that society, instead of being able to just hop on the tech bandwagon for the best stuff.

#32 FinnMcKool

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:18 AM

Claners could just be insta action folks who dont even have accounts , no coms no friends just drops with out even knowing what mech they will get.

that way anybody and everybody can play as a claner , but it wont be persistent, they dont earn xp just insta action action.







they are coming!
Posted Image

Edited by FinnMcKool, 08 April 2012 - 11:36 AM.


#33 Orzorn

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostFinnMcKool, on 08 April 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Claners could just be insta action folks who dont even have accounts , no coms no friends just drops with out even knowing what mech they will get.

that way anybody and everybody can play as a claner , but it wont be persistent, they dont earn xp just insta action action.

I don't think the dedicated Clanners on here would be too happy with that prospect.

Edited by Orzorn, 08 April 2012 - 11:34 AM.


#34 Reno Blade

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:37 AM

View PostPale Rider 010, on 08 April 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

My problem with penalizing teamwork is this:

In the past, Mechwarrior games have been about an arms race, as the developers have covered here extensively. There was little incentive to take a light or medium mech, because as fast as you were, an Assault could still core you with one well placed alpha strike. That as not fun. Being a supporting player earned you nothing. If you softened up that assault mech with a barrage of LRMs, but you're not the one who got the killing blow, chances are you got nothing. Also not fun. If team play isn't rewarded, or god forbid penalized, we're back to the old arms race where everyone wants an assault mech, everyone wants to be the hero, and all of the work they're putting into Role Warfare is wasted.

There is another option to help balance overly powerful clan tech. Numbers.

When the clans come, put four lances against a binary. 16 IS mechs, 10 Clan mechs. If that's weighted too heavily in IS favor, three lances (12 mechs) for the IS and 10 clanners. We could even get something in between.

We need to preserve Role Warfare if this game is going to become something really worth playing.

while numbers help, its not easy to balance.
while the multiplicator would penalize heavyer mechs, the light and med mechs are more awarded and they already can stand up against heavy and assault with clantech as they are.

the good point of bidding people out is no fun, could be used to attack multiple planets with less claners. this would further rise the honor for the clan with harder, but more victories, wouldnt it? ;)

#35 FinnMcKool

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:40 AM

View PostOrzorn, on 08 April 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

I don't think the dedicated Clanners on here would be too happy with that prospect.



Well may be just at first, it would be EZ for the devs to make happen , and once the Tech is widly available they could let folks move into their roles of Clanners if they want.

#36 Aedris Nova

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:03 PM

I do not think the forced non-cooperation will work. It is difficult to assume how a player is going to act and how to counter their style. There are ways to balance out but I believe the answer lies in a simple ratio. Clan commanders will always bid to use the lowest amount of troops possible in order to make the most of Clan resources. Therefore, it is completely realistic if Inner Sphere combatants outnumber clan combatants. A ratio of 3 IS to 2 clan should be sufficient. If it is not, the ratio can be adjusted as 2:1 or 4:3.

#37 Lord Trogus

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:22 PM

View PostThe Cheese, on 08 April 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

You're new to this 'online gaming' thing, aren't you.

Teamwork isn't as common as you seem to believe.

He is under the assumption the devs presented on day 1, and that was stressing the importance of teamwork. Every good team will work together.

#38 Snotling

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:03 PM

Well theres one way to balance clan vs is.

I think you could do it with a good matchmaking system.

With IS vs IS, you pair 12 Mechs vs 12 Mechs, make it so the teams are relatively even. done.

clan vs clan: you pair 10 mechs vs 10 mechs, same system.

IS vs clan: Pair 12 mechs vs 10 Mechs, you could have some nice company vs binary Battles. I think with the two mechs more, and some added tonnage on the IS side, it would be quite possible to balance it out.

And even if the teams are not 100% equal in strengh. I really dont think thats a problem. It will happen in IS vs IS matches to, and i like it. I enjoy just blasting people to pieces from time to time, and I really enjoy to be the underdog and shame a heavier opponent. (or die trying)

In the long run, it will balance out anyway.

just my 2cents

#39 Giftmacher

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:42 PM

What are these "Clans" you speak of? ;) (Also apologies for terrible joke... couldn't resist)

Edited by Giftmacher, 08 April 2012 - 01:48 PM.


#40 Insidious Johnson

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:30 PM

"Hey! You! Get offa my Clan!" - Mick Jagger





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