135 replies to this topic

[TeaL3af]

ice trey, on 14 April 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

I have to admit, I really don't like hypercompetition in my games, I love the Battletech franchise, but I'm far more interested in the immersion into the franchise.

When the first atlas image was finally unscrambled and I found out our next Mechwarrior game was not to be called "Mechwarrior" or "Mechwarrior 3015", but "Mechwarrior Online", my stomach roiled at the thought: Hypercompetition leaving anyone that doesn't have natural talent and daily practice in the dust; Angry teenagers with microphones spewing garbled obscenities and accusations about other players' sexualities; A broad selection rendered nearly useless as the handful of best optimized designs per the game mechanics get spammed out gratuitously... To be honest, everything they were talking about in the interview about how they felt about the Mechwarrior games in the past is more or less the opposite of what I felt: I played the single player, had some fun with it. Dabbled in the multiplayer for about a half an hour, and then promptly went back to starting a new single player campaign after losing my taste for multiplayer games just a few Pop-tarting Gladiators and no-heat matches later.

You do realise this is what happens when serious competition isn't considered by the design team?

[Volthorne]

TeaL3af, on 15 April 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

You do realise this is what happens when serious competition isn't considered by the design team?

No, that's what happens when the Devs screw eveything up and make it incredibly easy to abuse the game mechanics. When serious competition isn't considered by the Devs then there's no serious competition.

Edited by Volthorne, 15 April 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[cinco]

if people want to make it a sport, let them. i don't want dev time to be taken out to be used on (projects like this). sorry.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 16 April 2012 - 07:45 AM.
Grimm Was Here And Enforced Posting Etiquette

[TeaL3af]

Volthorne, on 15 April 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

No, that's what happens when the Devs screw eveything up and make it incredibly easy to abuse the game mechanics. When serious competition isn't considered by the Devs then there's no serious competition.

If dev's are considering serious competition they won't make it incredibly easy to abuse mechanics. No one is going to watch live tournaments where everyone does that poptart (stuff).

Edited by Mason Grimm, 16 April 2012 - 07:46 AM.
Grimm Wuz Here and Edited My Language

[Helmer]

cinco, on 16 April 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

(snip)

Constructive feedback is always appreciated, insults are not necessary. Nice forum title, it suites you.


Dev time would mostly be taken up with a recording feature, which is a popular request anyway. Then, after the game has been out for awhile, if they choose to allow tournaments or host one themselves, spectating, custom UI, etc would need to be worked on. Which would indeed be an undertaking. However, this is well after the game has been released and supported for awhile.





Cheers.

[SirDenOfYork]

I have no love for e-sports and there games especilly Call of Duty seires, they are the most Hacked games out there and e-sports does not attemp to do nothing about it, because people keep blindly buying the seires. I for one stopped buying the C.o.D. awhile back, they have seen the last of my money...

[Belisarius1]

Volthorne, on 15 April 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

No, that's what happens when the Devs screw eveything up and make it incredibly easy to abuse the game mechanics. When serious competition isn't considered by the Devs then there's no serious competition.

...but poptarting was a terrible tactic in competitive play. There's nothing to abuse. All it does against a coordinated team is get you killed.

TeaL3af, on 16 April 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

If dev's are considering serious competition they won't make it incredibly easy to abuse mechanics. No one is going to watch live tournaments where everyone does that poptart stuff.

And yes, even though poptarting wasn't abusive, this is true.

The anti-competitive guys need to realise that the chance of a broken tactic ruining their game actually increases when games are balanced around the casual crowd.

If the game is well designed with competition in mind, you won't need a more-canon-than-thou justification for using a variety of mechs in an interesting breadth of tactics, because that will actually be the best way to play.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 16 April 2012 - 07:45 AM.

[MausGMR]

MWO will never make it as an E-Sport.

First of all, its far too slow paced of a game to captivate the majority of the E-Sport market. It also doesnt contain obvious objectives aside from 'kill those guys' or 'stand on that piece of terrain for awhile'. Whilst we may think thats cool to watch, most people who don't know the ins and outs of the game will look at it and go "there's some transformers plodding towards each other shooting some lasers at each other? Interesting? not really". Think about the game being commentated for a moment;

Commentator 1 - Ok the Wolf Dragoon forces are moving west across the map, approaching a small town area, possibly seeking to set up cover whilst their scout finds the DCMS forces.
Commentator 2 - The DCMS currently are sat outside a dropship, protecting the capture point. Their Jenner is checking the North side of the map, looking for targets.
Commentator 1 - The WD forces have reached the town, it looks like the scouts may have found each other, let's keep an eye on that.
Commentator 2 - Sure thing Bob, they look to be looking in the same direction as each other .... oh wait no, no the DCMS scout is going back towards the woods in the east.
Commentator 1 - So Jim, that probably wasn't a positive radar contact? Ok well, let's consider what both teams can do at this point...

^ As you can see here, this kind of commentary is pretty much the most you can do outside of periods of direct confrontation, which based on the tactical nature of how the game is being portrayed, high intensity combat will probably not be happening for the majority of match time. I know how dull it is to commentate on Mechwarrior games when compared to games like Tribes, Quake, and CS, because I've done it.

Secondly, big stompy robots, whilst cool, aren't particularly appreciated across the PC playerbase globally. For example, Hi Rez studios has a couple of games under its belt, but its recently released Tribes Ascend is growing in popularity very quickly, and being taken on board by a number of E-Sports companies. The Hi Rez forums has nearly 2million members, the MWO forums aren't even pushing 100k yet.

Thirdly, Piranha haven't pushed the concept at all. Hi Rez hired their own E-Sports manager who pushed the E-Sports prior to Tribes Ascend beta, and then upon the release of the beta, organised and shoutcasted hundreds of matches to kick the E-sports community into gear. Even if MWO had the gameplay elements to make a good spectator sport, Piranha would need to fully get behind it and really push it hard.

Personally I believe, with the persistence of the game world, and the general slow pacing of combat, this game is best serviced by a series of podcats. Those podcasts can serve to keep people up to date on changes in the game map, as well as talk about key conflicts with the possibility of some videos for us to watch and enjoy.

Overall guys, every community loves the idea of a game becoming an E-Sport, but practically it is never going to happen with MWO.

There is no game like MWO that is an E-Sport, and thus I seriously doubt there ever will be, the appeal just isn't there. Hell, the likeliest chance of a mech game being an E-Sport would be something like Armoured Core in Japan, but even that hasn't happened yet.

Focus your attentions elsewhere, because this will never happen.

Edited by MausGMR, 16 April 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Helmer]

MausGMR, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

MWO will never make it as an E-Sport.

First of all, its far too slow paced of a game to captivate the majority of the E-Sport market. It also doesnt contain obvious objectives aside from 'kill those guys' or 'stand on that piece of terrain for awhile'. Whilst we may think thats cool to watch, most people who don't know the ins and outs of the game will look at it and go "there's some transformers plodding towards each other shooting some lasers at each other? Interesting? not really". Think about the game being commentated for a moment;

Commentator 1 - Ok the Wolf Dragoon forces are moving west across the map, approaching a small town area, possibly seeking to set up cover whilst their scout finds the DCMS forces.
Commentator 2 - The DCMS currently are sat outside a dropship, protecting the capture point. Their Jenner is checking the North side of the map, looking for targets.
Commentator 1 - The WD forces have reached the town, it looks like the scouts may have found each other, let's keep an eye on that.
Commentator 2 - Sure thing Bob, they look to be looking in the same direction as each other .... oh wait no, no the DCMS scout is going back towards the woods in the east.
Commentator 1 - So Jim, that probably wasn't a positive radar contact? Ok well, let's consider what both teams can do at this point...

^ As you can see here, this kind of commentary is pretty much the most you can do outside of periods of direct confrontation, which based on the tactical nature of how the game is being portrayed, high intensity combat will probably not be happening for the majority of match time. I know how dull it is to commentate on Mechwarrior games when compared to games like Tribes, Quake, and CS, because I've done it.

Secondly, big stompy robots, whilst cool, aren't particularly appreciated across the PC playerbase globally. For example, Hi Rez studios has a couple of games under its belt, but its recently released Tribes Ascend is growing in popularity very quickly, and being taken on board by a number of E-Sports companies. The Hi Rez forums has nearly 2million members, the MWO forums aren't even pushing 100k yet.

Thirdly, Piranha haven't pushed the concept at all. Hi Rez hired their own E-Sports manager who pushed the E-Sports prior to Tribes Ascend beta, and then upon the release of the beta, organised and shoutcasted hundreds of matches to kick the E-sports community into gear. Even if MWO had the gameplay elements to make a good spectator sport, Piranha would need to fully get behind it and really push it hard.

Personally I believe, with the persistence of the game world, and the general slow pacing of combat, this game is best serviced by a series of podcats. Those podcasts can serve to keep people up to date on changes in the game map, as well as talk about key conflicts with the possibility of some videos for us to watch and enjoy.

Overall guys, every community loves the idea of a game becoming an E-Sport, but practically it is never going to happen with MWO.

There is no game like MWO that is an E-Sport, and thus I seriously doubt there ever will be, the appeal just isn't there. Hell, the likeliest chance of a mech game being an E-Sport would be something like Armoured Core in Japan, but even that hasn't happened yet.

Focus your attentions elsewhere, because this will never happen.

You're making an assumption that the only winning condition is destruction of the other team. Territory control keeps the pace moving and could keep the action going. Although the systems are still the same, the gameplay pace between a tournament match and just a normal MWO match can be drastically different given a few changes.

For every argument there is a counter argument. Starcraft is boring for most to watch as well, however its hugely popular.

I can respect your views, but I respectfully disagree. Personally, I would love to see Tournaments first, and see how they play out.

Commentating on different Sports plays out differently. A Commentating style in the EVO fighting championships would be sorely out of place in DOTA2.
I'd counter that the action in MWO would be MUCH easier for the uninitiated to comprehend and watch than listening to Build orders and the myriad of strategies found in StarCraft2. And both DOTA2 and StarCraft2 are HUGE ESports.
The Hyper emotional aggressive commenting style of an EVO match is different than the huge info dump of an EVE Alliance tournament match,which is in turn different than the methodical long term commenting of a StarCraft2 match.
I've done some commenting, I know what you mean.

Hi-Rez is shooting for an ESports presence right away. Which is great and has been successful for them.Tribes has also had more media exposure as well as a Beta/Open Beta for some time now, that's bound to generate more interest. You're comparing Apples to Oranges. Just because one company chooses to do something one way doesn't mean another must follow the same path. Simply because one game might have more players currently doesn't discount the possibility of another being successful. Were that the case every company should just not include any sort of multiplayer because they cannot match Call of Dutys numbers.
There's no need to capture "The majority of the ESports market" , a small percentage would be fine thanks

Granted it would be easier if PGI was focusing on it now, but it doesn't mean they haven't had internal discussions about it or have laid the groundwork. The first step is spectate and recording features, and we know from Bryans March 29th Tweet that replays are on a short list of features they are working on for post launch.

MWO as an Esport at launch? No chance. A year or 2 after launch? A long shot, but it's possible. Again, my own personal take is, as long as matches can be broadcasted, posted, uploaded, etc etc and I'm able to watch other matches, I'd be happy. An Official PGI sponsored tournament would be incredible. An ESport embraced by millions? A long shot fantasy that would be wonderful, but it doesn't mean it's not worth the attempt.





Cheers

Edited by Helmer, 16 April 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[Jack Corvus]

Motionless, on 12 April 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

I regret to inform you that performing multiple actions quickly is what a real time strategy is about and none of blizzard's balancing or 'e-sport' related actions has changed it to make it that way. And the leagues they have set up will help you by hooking you up with players more your speed.

I signed up specifically just to respond to this, regardless of what the rest of the thread is about. Which is to say:

Horsecrap. That's spoken exactly like someone whose only RTS experience *is* Starcraft. People who actually play other games in the genre, who actually like the genre and not just the one game they can name, know that type of gameplay model is completely dated and pretty much gone from the genre. While you always will have a multitude of tasks to handle at any given time, no modern RTS, nevermind the critically acclaimed ones like Company of Heroes (tactical planning and battlefield control is the name of the game. not furious production and clicking), sticks with the old 'click as fast as you can' model that SC2 still pushes.

[Thorn Hallis]

MausGMR, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

First of all, its far too slow paced of a game to captivate the majority of the E-Sport market. It also doesnt contain obvious objectives aside from 'kill those guys' or 'stand on that piece of terrain for awhile'.

I don't think the game pace is a factor, otherwise World of Tank wouldn't have made it into the ESL.

[Belisarius1]

Jack Corvus, on 16 April 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

I signed up specifically just to respond to this, regardless of what the rest of the thread is about. Which is to say:

Horsecrap. That's spoken exactly like someone whose only RTS experience *is* Starcraft. People who actually play other games in the genre, who actually like the genre and not just the one game they can name, know that type of gameplay model is completely dated and pretty much gone from the genre. While you always will have a multitude of tasks to handle at any given time, no modern RTS, nevermind the critically acclaimed ones like Company of Heroes (tactical planning and battlefield control is the name of the game. not furious production and clicking), sticks with the old 'click as fast as you can' model that SC2 still pushes.

Actually that's not really the case. High-level CoH still requires reasonable apm and the ability to monitor multiple locations on the battlefield simultaneously, as well as maintain production. It's less mechanically demanding than Starcraft, but being faster remains a critical player attribute.

Also, he's incorrect in implying that RTS in general are decided by nothing but speed, but you're equally incorrect in assuming that starcraft is decided by nothing but speed.

The heart of an RTS is in the interaction between a player's decision-making and their ability to execute those decisions. Some games lean one way or the other more heavily, but both factors are always important. I would also point out that Starcraft 2's enormous success suggests that its model is still quite valid.

Edited by Belisarius†, 16 April 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[MausGMR]

If you want a game that has recorded commentated matches that appear on youtube for MWO, we can do that no problem. We did that with MWLL and it was certainly possible, but it certainly wasn't terribly interesting for anyone outside of the MWLL community.

If you want it to be an E-sport, your talking about taking it past simple competitive play with recorded matches and taking it to the masses. If you want it to succeed as an E-sport then it has to appeal to the masses that enjoy E-sports. Supporting the Mech niche just isn't going to cut it, we can get everything we want from youtube and community shoutcasters.

E-sports means worthy of sponsorship, and worthy of prizes. To get this, the game needs exposure, and popularity, and considering current user levels, I doubt it's going to reach anywhere near the level the a company would need to consider taking MWO up as an official E-sport.

When it comes down to watching games, people like complexity because typically us gamers like to understand and talk about all the complex strategies, tactics, and options available to the players competing. That's why people like starcraft, and other similar games. It's all about the differences that one split second decision or piece of perfect timing makes and how that can effect the overall game.

Mech games typically have quite steep sided slippery slopes, once you get on them its very hard to get off. Units can't retreat from disadvantageous situations easily, the amount of actions performable in a short period of time is fairly low as your limited to walk forward/left/right/reverse and shoot some guns. The pacing is slow, and as such, the amount of rapid fluid changes that happen in a short period of time are low. Think about it for a second, can you think of any game that is popular as an E-sports game, that doesnt have multiple things all changing and going on at the same time, where a player can make 10 choices in the space of a few seconds that can completely throw the direction a fight is going in.

Steep sided slippery slope games are usually pretty boring to watch, because once you get on that slope its very hard to get off it, and spectators realise this. They will go "oh look, that atlas has caught that dragon in a built up street. The AC20 and lasers far out performs the Ac5 and backup weapons of the dragon, and his speed advantage is mitigated by the terrain around him. This fight is pretty much decided, why bother watching."

Edited by MausGMR, 16 April 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[SideSt3p]

Jack Corvus, on 16 April 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

I signed up specifically just to respond to this, regardless of what the rest of the thread is about. Which is to say:

Horsecrap. That's spoken exactly like someone whose only RTS experience *is* Starcraft. People who actually play other games in the genre, who actually like the genre and not just the one game they can name, know that type of gameplay model is completely dated and pretty much gone from the genre. While you always will have a multitude of tasks to handle at any given time, no modern RTS, nevermind the critically acclaimed ones like Company of Heroes (tactical planning and battlefield control is the name of the game. not furious production and clicking), sticks with the old 'click as fast as you can' model that SC2 still pushes.

While I appreciate somebody signing up to the MWO forums, please don't de-rail the thread.

In response to MausGMR, I'd like to say that a lot of what you've said is based on assumptions. NONE of us outside of PGI have any experience with the gameplay of MWO. We have no idea how the pace or flow of combat will go.

While the game is taking a lot of flavor from the tabletop game, I think assuming that it is going to be "exactly the same" doesn't make sense. Also, things like map size, objectives and so on will determine play. I am not assuming I know anything about MWO or the dev plan. I have no idea what PGI has planned on their actual gameplay modes and execution. We'll just have to wait and see

**EDIT** Thank you Grimm for cleaning up the above post. I appreciate it

Edited by SideSt3p, 16 April 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Helmer]

MausGMR, on 16 April 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

If you want a game that has recorded commentated matches that appear on youtube for MWO, we can do that no problem. We did that with MWLL and it was certainly possible, but it certainly wasn't terribly interesting for anyone outside of the MWLL community.

If you want it to be an E-sport, your talking about taking it past simple competitive play with recorded matches and taking it to the masses. If you want it to succeed as an E-sport then it has to appeal to the masses that enjoy E-sports. Supporting the Mech niche just isn't going to cut it, we can get everything we want from youtube and community shoutcasters.

E-sports means worthy of sponsorship, and worthy of prizes. To get this, the game needs exposure, and popularity, and considering current user levels, I doubt it's going to reach anywhere near the level the a company would need to consider taking MWO up as an official E-sport.

When it comes down to watching games, people like complexity because typically us gamers like to understand and talk about all the complex strategies, tactics, and options available to the players competing. That's why people like starcraft, and other similar games. It's all about the differences that one split second decision or piece of perfect timing makes and how that can effect the overall game.

Mech games typically have quite steep sided slippery slopes, once you get on them its very hard to get off. Units can't retreat from disadvantageous situations easily, the amount of actions performable in a short period of time is fairly low as your limited to walk forward/left/right/reverse and shoot some guns. The pacing is slow, and as such, the amount of rapid fluid changes that happen in a short period of time are low. Think about it for a second, can you think of any game that is popular as an E-sports game, that doesnt have multiple things all changing and going on at the same time, where a player can make 10 choices in the space of a few seconds that can completely throw the direction a fight is going in.

Steep sided slippery slope games are usually pretty boring to watch, because once you get on that slope its very hard to get off it, and spectators realise this. They will go "oh look, that atlas has caught that dragon in a built up street. The AC20 and lasers far out performs the Ac5 and backup weapons of the dragon, and his speed advantage is mitigated by the terrain around him. This fight is pretty much decided, why bother watching."

Yep, I've watched MANY MWLL videos on Youtube. All of which are either recorded by 1 individual , first person perspective , or (a few) ghosting in 3rd person.
None of which had a dedicated UI or broadcasting tools. HUGE difference in quality and information given to the individual watching.
The few that actually have the Voice tracks of the individuals playing are incredibly fun to watch.
Given proper Spectate/Broadcast tools they'd be even more so.

MWO, it appears, will tread grounds between the nice action of a shooter and the Tactical/Strategy decisions of a light RTS. People do like complexity, I agree, and MWO has it in the 'mechs, variants, weapons, and presumably the strategies employed to achieve the objectives, whether that be destruction of the other team or holding a certain area and not being destroyed. The selection of what 'mechs to take in and of itself could be interesting. I don't even play DOTA2 and I enjoy watching the selection and counter selection process .
The point being with Starcraft, almost all of the enjoyment of watching is listening to the build order and possible strategies being employed. Very dry sound, and yet people watch. I've heard it said that High level StarCraft2 players (And spectators) can usually know within the first 5 minutes of a match whether of not someone has won or lost, and yet they keep playing. Why? I'll refer you to Jason O'Connors nice piece on why we watch Sports ( http://ezinearticles...nk%29&id=126611 )

MWO has a somewhat lower level of speculation/strategy/build info , yet has at least some visceral visual action.
It's barrier of entry is definitely higher than an EVO fighting game or CS, but much lower, IMHO, than an EVE online tournament or StarCraft2.


I could easily downplay CounterStrike by saying why would anyone watch it? It's just some guys running around with guns. It's whoever sees each other and fires first, right? It's whoever has the bigger gun. Why would I want to listen to commentators talk about what gun someone has, or the fact that the guy is sitting watching a doorway.

Anouncer 1: "Yep, he's uuuhhh... sitting there watching the door"
Announcer 2: " Yep."
Announcer 1: "HE'S MOVI....ohh... nevermind that's just the idle animation"
Announcer 2: " Soooo.... uh that SMG he has, how many rounds does it hold?"

Kind over simplifies it, don't you think? Yes, I know. CS has a MUCH faster pace and actions per minute to assimilate. It doesn't mean that a 10 minute match with 24 'mechs is going to be incredibly boring (Although there's always that possibility). There are always modifications and solutions when it comes to a tournament setting to negate boring gameplay or other issues.
CounterStrike is a GREAT game to spectate BTW

Any talk about pacing is irrelevant as of right now as we have yet to see, beyond the Alpha video, of what MWO brings to the table. The MWLL videos I've watched have all been exciting, and it appears MWO is faster paced.

EVE online's tournaments are almost ALL info with the visuals being negligible at best. However they are fairly popular. Granted not ESPORT level popular. However the tools necessary to run a PGI sanctioned tournament and an ESport are relatively the same, the only difference being with an ESport it has reached an even WIDER audience with endorsements. Besides those distinctions, the rest is just semantics.
If we got to the point of an Official tournament, I think most would be happy. If it were able to expand past that to a larger audience , then wonderful. But pushing for an ESport is pushing for the tools we'd like to see in.

Personally, I would say, you are correct. The biggest issue MWO faces would be popularity , exposure, and the funding needed to implement the necessary tools to even get to a point where official PGI tournaments are viable, let alone a full blown ESport.
But then again, had someone said to me "What do you think about a game where people fight with different Tanks", I'd have laughed, and yet WoT seems fairly popular.

We shall see.



Cheers.

Edited by Helmer, 16 April 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[TeaL3af]

I actually think too fast of a pace makes the game less viable as a spectator esport. For example I love Tribes, but when you watch a live stream of it you can't tell what the hell is going on most of the time and you often don't see amazing flag grabs because the camera guy didn't catch it. I can only imagine how confusing it would be to people that don't play it. It's hard to judge the pace of MWO though, seeing as how it ain't out yet.

[MausGMR]

I personally wouldn't consider what Eve-Online offers anything near 'E-sports', its a service designed purely to service that community and as you say, is all information with very limited visual presentation. Those that get it, get it, those that don't, don't. Whilst it may fit within a dictionary definition of 'E-sport', it is such it's own niche it sits very far apart from other successful e-sports games.

Any kind of commentating can be bad, that's not the fault of the game but the commentators themselves. What it boils down to is scope. The question is, is MWO going to have enough going on to have a big enough scope for decent commentary? Yes I agree, us that are dead keen on the game are probably going to enjoy listen to people talking about it regardless, but that doesn't mean its good, it just means there is an extra layer of 'cool factor' being added onto a game that we already enjoy.

In regards to me making assumptions about gameplay, I'll just say this. This game is not going to magically transform into quake overnight. What you have seen so far with the gameplay footage is basically what you are going to get. There has never, ever been a case of pre released game footage (of a game that was released in the same engine it was demonstrated in) being vastly different from the released product. And I've been gaming long enough to analyse the video we have got, as most of us should be able to, because it is not hard, to see what kind of product we are going to get come release in terms of pacing and overall gameplay.

Basically, it's going to be like MWLL with a very slightly slower pace and more tactical depth. If you don't want to believe me that's your call, but I'd quite happily put money on it because it is the game we are going to get.

Thus, I base my rundown of its viability on that analysis. Ultimately, if you want it to have leagues, go ahead and create them. I've done it before for games and I know how much legwork it is, and I also know how big the divide is between having an established league system and a game being considered for E-Sports. There are leagues for scrabble, doesn't make it a good spectator sport.

Anyway, I've said what I need to. Ultimately, it comes down to the community, if you guys want it and want it hard enough, then you might see it start to emerge. The amount of hurdles in your way however, are vast, and difficult to overcome, so best of luck to you.

[Helmer]

MausGMR, on 16 April 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

I personally wouldn't consider what Eve-Online offers anything near 'E-sports', its a service designed purely to service that community and as you say, is all information with very limited visual presentation. Those that get it, get it, those that don't, don't. Whilst it may fit within a dictionary definition of 'E-sport', it is such it's own niche it sits very far apart from other successful e-sports games.

Any kind of commentating can be bad, that's not the fault of the game but the commentators themselves. What it boils down to is scope. The question is, is MWO going to have enough going on to have a big enough scope for decent commentary? Yes I agree, us that are dead keen on the game are probably going to enjoy listen to people talking about it regardless, but that doesn't mean its good, it just means there is an extra layer of 'cool factor' being added onto a game that we already enjoy.

In regards to me making assumptions about gameplay, I'll just say this. This game is not going to magically transform into quake overnight. What you have seen so far with the gameplay footage is basically what you are going to get. There has never, ever been a case of pre released game footage (of a game that was released in the same engine it was demonstrated in) being vastly different from the released product. And I've been gaming long enough to analyse the video we have got, as most of us should be able to, because it is not hard, to see what kind of product we are going to get come release in terms of pacing and overall gameplay.

Basically, it's going to be like MWLL with a very slightly slower pace and more tactical depth. If you don't want to believe me that's your call, but I'd quite happily put money on it because it is the game we are going to get.

Thus, I base my rundown of its viability on that analysis. Ultimately, if you want it to have leagues, go ahead and create them. I've done it before for games and I know how much legwork it is, and I also know how big the divide is between having an established league system and a game being considered for E-Sports. There are leagues for scrabble, doesn't make it a good spectator sport.

Anyway, I've said what I need to. Ultimately, it comes down to the community, if you guys want it and want it hard enough, then you might see it start to emerge. The amount of hurdles in your way however, are vast, and difficult to overcome, so best of luck to you.

I’d agree that the EVE online tournaments, are just that, a Tournament. I wouldn’t qualify it as an “ESport” , however, just as most of us are speculating on, it does include a customized spectate UI, commentary, and streaming. Whether or not it’s an ESport is semantics, the tools are there. Tools and Tournament designed as service to that community the same as they could be used to service the MWO community and be used as great promotional tools in the hands of the community. It’s a value add in.

Whether or not the community decides to create a League is not relevant. Could someone(s)? Sure, however it is an undertaking commiserate with the level of quality they would want.And Vast even on the low end.
And if PGI is not supporting the ideal with the in game tools necessary, they are relegated to what others have tried in the past, low quality matches with limited information , view points and entertainment value.
There are differences between a Tournament and an ESport, but without the tools needed by PGI, you’re probably not going to see either of any quality. After that the differences are sponsorships and mostly semantics.
Intels George Woo has done a great job promoting ESports and turning them into glorified tournaments.

Obviously commentary can be bad. It’s the commentator, not the game. It boils down to scope. Fighting game commentary is based off of the hyper paced action, and delivered in usually very emotionally charged bursts.
StarCraft is a constant drone of information and speculation about what might possibly be going through each competitors head, there appears to be very little “action”.
MWO could very much sit between the two. And good spectating tools for the commentators allows them to see (and display) the overall game as well as jumping around to the hot spots of action. Personally I think there’s plenty of information to be discussed during a match in terms of perceived overall Strategy , the actual in game Tactics, the status of the teams, and the action going on.

No one is inferring the game is going to play out like Quake. Nor would , I imagine, most would want it to be. I’ve been gaming long enough to analyze the video we have to see that the pacing appears to be about what MWLL currently offers, perhaps slightly quicker, which was the comparison used earlier.

It also appears that a “kill” would take longer than just about any other ESport or competitive game out there, thus being a “slower pace”, but not neccassirly less fun to spectate. We are making assumptions / conjectures / guesses on what the pace of an overall match would be. How would an 2L vs 2L play out compared to a 3L vs 3L? How would having alternate win options effect the overall flow of the game? Does Information Warfare slow the game down too much or ratched up some of the tension? Do you allow all the information up front to the spectators or do you implement a “Fog of War” mentality when it comes to the exact variants used and some of the information? Are there in game repairs? Are Teams based off of C-Bills, Tonnage or Battle Value?
There’s a myriad of details that we cannot postulate on based off of a little bit of pre alpha video.

Straight Deathmatch will probably play out very much like MWLL, however, there’s no need to use a straight DM formula.

The source material is there, and as a former Video Editor I can assure you, it's all about how it's presented. The spectators perception is your reality. If the tools you're given do not allow you to accent the positive and downplay the negative, you're not going to be successful. All the different ESports have their ups and downs, and even those not initially designed to be a Tournament/ESport can be adapted to be so. But as you said, Scrabble has tournaments, it doesn't make it a viable spectator sport, but people do watch Chess believe it or not.
It *IS* all about Scope. And although I believe all the necessary fundamentals are there, my conjecture means nothing right now. We're just going to have to wait and see a year from now.

But again, it all depends on the community. If there are millions of players (Like WoT) who are financially supporting it, then yes I can see PGI having the resources to implement the tools necessary. If it stays a niche market, then no.

I'd just be happy with the tools. If it grows from there, awesome.


Cheers

Edited by Helmer, 16 April 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[pesco]

I wouldn't define "e-sport" as "very popular". If javelin throwing were to lose its mainstream popularity (oh, wait), would it stop being a sport? I took the OP to mean: MWO lending itself to a certain kind of comparative competition as well as spectating. The latter does mean that watching it should be interesting. I do not agree with Maus' assessment that MWO or mech games in general are boring to watch. I also think that a certain familiarity of the viewer with the game is fair to assume (cf. e.g. Baseball).

Personally, like Helmer, I've watched many MWLL matches to great enjoyment.

[CrazyIvan]

I think that MWO could be a good E Sports production if done right. Here are some good videos to keep the talk going. MWLL Tournament finals between RDL and WiE (now A.C.E.S. and the guys who do the Battletech podcasts at No Guts No Galaxy)

http://youtu.be/vZvyWQNPDTY

http://youtu.be/Wqw0ISe0m_o