135 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned here, but did come up in other threads is that spectating can't be done in real time. This allows a 3rd person, out of battle "scout" using TS or Mumble, which would negate ambushes, flanking manouvers etc.

[Catharsis]

I could imagine it to be a lot like that animated Heavy Gear TV show from way back when. You would have teams of five or so, all with their own personal piloting styles, competing in various tournament matches. All televised and backed with outrageous commentary; perhaps by TotalBiscuit? haha

[Snotling]

Catharsis, on 13 April 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

I could imagine it to be a lot like that animated Heavy Gear TV show from way back when. You would have teams of five or so, all with their own personal piloting styles, competing in various tournament matches. All televised and backed with outrageous commentary; perhaps by TotalBiscuit? haha

Getting TotalBiscuit involved in this game in any way would be the best thing. That man generates so much attention, its not even funny.

[Catharsis]

Snotling, on 13 April 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

Getting TotalBiscuit involved in this game in any way would be the best thing. That man generates so much attention, its not even funny.

He has actually mentioned MWO a few times in both TGS Podcast and one of his Mailboxes. He apparently is an old MechWarrior fan
Like every one from the 80s and 90s. Obviously.

[Helmer]

GaussDragon, on 12 April 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

If the MWL website weren't in disarray I'd link you to some of the old shoutcasts that were done. In later years, Notorious BMC started doing vid casts too. While all this was done well past MechWarrior 4's heyday, league support really helps at the very least maintain interest. I would have stopped playing MW4 sooner if it wasn't for MWL. If MWL, BZ, VL, NBT, SL etc are ready to go by the time this thing drops, I think it'd be fantastic for the game though if PGI supported tournaments it'd be that much better I'm sure.

I found it interesting to see in one of the links you posted that many people enjoy watching matches than playing them. For me, this is true of StarCraft 2. I haven't played SC2 in a few months (for mostly RL reasons and it having to compete with BF3 when I'm on a kick for it) but I still loving watching pro matches. The recent GSL finals matches between MMA and DRG were an awesome 7 game series.

Ahhh... I'd love to watch some of those.

It seems counter intuitive. I definitely would have been in the camp of "people would rather PLAY games than watch them" a few years ago. But Fighting games / DOTA2 / StarCraft2 / EVE online are all games that for either skill or time constraints I would much rather watch than play. Especially watching "high level" play.

Thorn Hallis, on 12 April 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

I'm all up for it, as long as the Devs don't start to balance the mechs around 1v1 combat.

Though I think the devs at PGI are smarter then Blizzard's.

Agreed, on both counts. The minute the game starts getting balanced around 1v1 combat, the game suffers and you've ruined it. As long as they've balanced the game systems themselves players will always find a way to counter strategies and work as a team.
The mechlab adds a nice bit of complexity as well (Assuming you're allowed to bring your own variants into a sanctioned tournament)

Nik Van Rhijn, on 13 April 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned here, but did come up in other threads is that spectating can't be done in real time. This allows a 3rd person, out of battle "scout" using TS or Mumble, which would negate ambushes, flanking manouvers etc.

I actually did briefly touch on that in one of my overly zealous walls of text ...

". This, obviously, poses issues with any individual being able to give out vital information to the sides playing. However, as many have stated in other posts, there are ways around that. Including, but not limited to, locked matches, spectate delay, In-Engine recording features, Random match spectate, etc."

You're correct! Ghosting would be an big issue.






Hopefully 6 months or a year post launch we will see some of the necessarily features start getting implemented. Again, best thing we can do is play, get new people interested, financially support the game, and give PGI time to work on their vision of the game.



Cheers.

Edited by Helmer, 13 April 2012 - 03:53 AM.

[TeaL3af]

For a game to work as an E-Sport it needs to be interesting to watch and have a very high skill ceiling. Not sure MWO will be either, though I'm sure it will be a fun game to play.

[SideSt3p]

Helmer, on 13 April 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

You're correct! Ghosting would be an big issue.

I've seen the issue of ghosting raised quite a few times within this thread so I figured I'd throw in my two cents

Ghosting is an issue in pretty much all major competitive games. If anybody besides me watches Twitch.TV sometimes you will see a stream cheater who knows a particular player (EG.iNcontroL, EG.Idra, TSL.Polt, etc) and will either already have their stream up or start it up as the game begins. Twitch.TV has implemented a delay option for streams to mess up the stream cheating. Does it fix the problem? No, but in the end we can only hope people are honest and straight forward.

In a tournament setting, atleast with SC2 players are usually required to upload their replays to the tournaments site and can report cheating and abuse there. Then a Mod team can review the replay and make a ruling. Again, it doesn't fix everything but there are tools already in place which can be used to help us keep the environment clean and also honest.

[Riptor]

Solaris.... that is what solaris is all about isnt it?

Fits perfectly in the canon and has absolutely no effect on players outside the arena. They can go wild and have their e.sports tournaments without disturbing players that dont want anything to do with it. Even better if we can set bets on teams and gamble a bit... after all that was part of solaris too ^^

[Ranger207]

OK, I haven't read everything here yet, but I want to say: I strongly support having MWO be an E-Sport. Several years ago, EA had a webshow for C&C3, called Battlecast Primetime. It had C&C news, reveiws on the latest E3 or PAX or whatever that C&C attended, it had a community corner, and, most importantly, it had replays. I wonder how much it would cost for Garth and another dev to commentate on some really good match? Anyway, PGI definetly needs to include a replay feature so that fan sites (like GameReplays.org) can commentete on it. In fact, there are still C&C3 VODs on GR.org because of the replay feature.

[Dataman]

positively, absolutely agree.

and I'm sure it's an awesome to watch 2 teams of giant mech shooting each other.

and hey, it's the closest Solaris we ever have if MWO is qualified to be in e-sports

and maybe, if you win, you will get all the ladies in your school or even town.

Edited by Dataman, 13 April 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[Trevnor]

I totally agree with this. MWO as an E-sport would be something I watch. To avoid the Stream cheating, just delay the feed by 5 minutes. Also, the E-sport league could force all competitors to use a in-game VOIP(if it gets included). That'll also cut down on stream cheating.

[Zerik]

Belisarius†, on 12 April 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

As someone who follows the starcraft 2 scene quite avidly and plays a reasonable amount, I will say that most of this is false.

I'm sorry, but many of your points step from the fact that you don't completely understand the game. It's a shame that that was your experience in lower leagues, and I sympathise with casual players who find SC2 hard to get into and hard to stick with, but ultimately it's a complicated game with a steep learning curve and a lot of very driven, knowledgeable players. You're going to get build order wins and losses, you're going to get egos and ragequits, and you're going to find the occasional smurf who can take you apart. That's just what it looks like.

The issue with starcraft 2 - and the cause of the problems you're encountering - really doesn't have a lot to do with esports. It's actually the ladder system. I understand why Blizzard implemented it, and the thought is a good one, but they really shot themselves in the foot.

Rather than drive people to play more to rank up, it actually pushes them to play less. The average casual player is more scared of losing and being demoted than they are desirous of advancement. Thus, instead of playing the game, they watch day[9], because that doesn't risk precious ladder points and gives the illusion that they're improving. So you see a lot of guys with bad mechanics who try - badly - to emulate high level strategies, and lose with them. That's just human nature and has little to do with esports at all.

Regarding variety and game length et al., those are really not problems when you understand the game. If you're countering their failed pro strategies, more power to you, but if you're winning consistently you'll start playing guys who can execute them better, and I guarantee you won't find the counters so simple then.

There's plenty of variety at the top level, but it's variety defined by the limits of what works and what doesn't, which is really much more interesting than variety spread across all the weird-*** things a new player might do.


EDIT: on game length



The original starcraft is actually the very definition of an esport, having started the whole thing in Korea. Korean Brood War progamers are still much better paid, much more mainstream and (arguably) much... well... better than their SC2 counterparts.

Games in the original are slightly longer. Units were more difficult to control and did less damage, which slowed the game down, but the difference is a far cry from 5-10 min for SC2 vs. 30-60min for BW. The average pro SC2 game goes to 10-20 minutes minimum, and usually longer. Brood war I'm not as intimately familiar with, but I'd say it gets about an extra ten minutes on the low end.

This much of your post actually does make it through my thick skull. While I still do not agree with all of it... After reading over it several times I find it to be quite compelling while doing a good job of addressing many of the issues I have with SC2, and for that I will say good job, and thank you for taking the time to post it.
Perhaps it is the case that I jumped the gun in blaming the wrong thing for my issues, and for that I apologize.

Belisarius†, on 12 April 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

This is probably the most important false point here. It's a fool's errand to attempt to balance for anything other than the highest level of play. As other people have said, newbies and even mid-high tier players are affected by a huge variety of factors - mostly their own incompetence. It's completely impossible to quantify their failures versus their opponent's and make a judgement on whether a unit or a weapon was actually to blame.

The only time you can make balance judgements is when as many confounding factors - ie. player mistakes - as possible have been removed, and that's only possible when you're looking at the very best. Even then it's exceedingly murky, as SC2's constantly updated balance demonstrates.

Other than the marked out part, I completely agree with this portion of the post. However, I do feel that should e-sports be introduced into MechWarrior Online through the Solaris arenas, the balancing end of the game should not be on that aspect, but instead the more team based matches; especially the higher end house vs house and mercgroup vs mercgroup instances.

Edited by Zerik, 13 April 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[Orzorn]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 13 April 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned here, but did come up in other threads is that spectating can't be done in real time. This allows a 3rd person, out of battle "scout" using TS or Mumble, which would negate ambushes, flanking manouvers etc.

Helmer, on 13 April 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

You're correct! Ghosting would be an big issue.

Actually, Dota 2 solves this issue quite easily: It puts a 3 minute delay on all game streams to in-game spectators.

[SideSt3p]

Orzorn, on 13 April 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Actually, Dota 2 solves this issue quite easily: It puts a 3 minute delay on all game streams to in-game spectators.

How does that work then during live tournaments? If you've got a 3min delay and a team wins the whole crowd will see cheering/etc and, in my opinion that would kind of ruin the experience =/

From a replay/observer live game (non-tourney) that would be ok if it was remote. But I don't feel so much for a big event like say, Intel Extreme Masters.

[Orzorn]

SideSt3p, on 13 April 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

How does that work then during live tournaments? If you've got a 3min delay and a team wins the whole crowd will see cheering/etc and, in my opinion that would kind of ruin the experience =/

From a replay/observer live game (non-tourney) that would be ok if it was remote. But I don't feel so much for a big event like say, Intel Extreme Masters.

There are, I believe, 4 slots for shoutcasters in Dota 2 practice games. Shoutcasters have real time access to the game feed, if my memory serves me correctly.

Edit: I checked, yes, I was correct:

Quote

For those that are unfamiliar with DOTA TV, this is a short description: VALVE is trying to add a function for streamers to be able to cast the games directly through the game client, allowing the observers to hear the caster's voice and lock the camera on that caster's view, so everyone sees the same thing, basically eliminating the need for 3rd party streaming (justin.tv, own3d.tv etc). You can also choose to view one of the player's first person perspective, including mouse movements.

Edited by Orzorn, 13 April 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

I like it, I'm certain those with more code experience than I can sort the details.

Its good!

[Dakkonn]

I actually was seriously thinking about trying to set up (or at least see what it would take) a way to commentate matches of MWO in an E-Sports fashion. The issues are there is no was to spectate a match as its happen (not a big deal tho) and I have not heard of any way to watch replays (that is kinda a deal breaker for what I had planned).

Granted none of us have gotten our hands on the game yeah so I have no real idea what the community support features available in the game will be, however this is a subject I would LOVE to see become a reality. The another issue would be viewer count. The listed games have anywhere from 5k-100k viewers consistently (depending on the game/event) I know MW has a cult following but I do not know if we have the raw numbers to keep viewership up.

E-sports lives and dies by how many people watch online, if we as a community could suck in as many people as possible by doing things like posting on twitter, reddit, facebook, ect ect thats how you get the numbers. Which in turn creates payed sponsored events with the fancy cash prizes

Let me recap this kinda mess of a post (I'm not sure how coherent it is due to lack of sleep and I'm at work ATM so brain rot is an issue) If we as a community want to see MechWarrior Online turn into an E-Sport then we as a community have to do the "leg work". We have to do things like spread the word via as many outlets as possible. Plus keep the viewer count up, even if its only that we are streaming the shows (muted) in the background while playing other games or surfing the internet or just leaving it on while we are out doing errands. If we want this to happen WE are the only ones that can make it happen.

[Helmer]

Orzorn, on 13 April 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Actually, Dota 2 solves this issue quite easily: It puts a 3 minute delay on all game streams to in-game spectators.

Yep, touched on that in the sentence just prior to that...


". This, obviously, poses issues with any individual being able to give out vital information to the sides playing. However, as many have stated in other posts, there are ways around that. Including, but not limited to, locked matches, spectate delay, In-Engine recording features, Random match spectate, etc."

You're correct! Ghosting would be an big issue.



I'm just curious if it's going to be an In-Engine recording feature, or Normal spectate. Depending on which way they are able to go posses a few issues.

SideSt3p, on 13 April 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

How does that work then during live tournaments? If you've got a 3min delay and a team wins the whole crowd will see cheering/etc and, in my opinion that would kind of ruin the experience =/

From a replay/observer live game (non-tourney) that would be ok if it was remote. But I don't feel so much for a big event like say, Intel Extreme Masters.

LIVE tournaments, should MWO ever get THAT big are easy to solve as you don't need to worry about a 3rd party feeding information to the teams. You can give unrestricted Spectating to the fans, or a DOTA Tv style stream with commentators (Preferably).
It's the Tournaments that are being held where individuals are not live (Playing from their respective houses) that you have the issue with Ghosting. A 5 minute delay would solve most of the issues, but not all.


Cheers.

Edited by Helmer, 13 April 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[IceSerpent]

DarkTreader, on 12 April 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Wow... way to put a lot of thought into that one.


I think this is an interesting idea... though I'm not sure how much I'd want to have a 'Coca-Cola' billboard in the middle of my match because the company dropped some cash to PGI in return for some in-game advertisements.

I second that "no", I'll even make it a "dear God, please don't make that happen". MWO should be all about meta-game, i.e. conquest. E-sports are all about one's position on the scoreboard. This is something that would probably fit into Solaris mode if/when we get it, but IMHO it has no place in the "normal" matches.

[GaussDragon]

If it ever became big enough to be at a live-tournament venue, then ghosting wouldn't be an issue. But for streamed matches in some sort of league/tournament, I can see it being a problem in a mech game. I know it's a stretch to go based on MW4, but in league play, matches that went all 30 minutes without a shot being fired were not uncommon. A 5 or 10 minute delay would help but in matches that are a bit more drawn out, knowing the opponent's location could be quite an advantage. If anything, the best way to solve this would be to make the spawns close or to change it to a format where it would be difficult for two teams to run circles around each other... things like smaller maps, aggression incentives etc, may help.

IceSerpent, on 13 April 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

I second that "no", I'll even make it a "dear God, please don't make that happen". MWO should be all about meta-game, i.e. conquest. E-sports are all about one's position on the scoreboard. This is something that would probably fit into Solaris mode if/when we get it, but IMHO it has no place in the "normal" matches.

Competitive play isn't about the normal matches. I think, presumably, most of us are taking about competitive play that happens outside of the meta-game.