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What can u do with the dragon? 5N


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#1 MadPanda

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:39 AM

I've bought 4 mechs and there is only one purchase I deeply regret, it's the Dragon 5N. Like a nuub I just looked that it had 3 ballistic slots and thought I could do some cool stuff with multiple AC's.

Well, problem #1 was that ALL the ballistic points are in the right arm. Alright I tried to make it work and managed to strip everything and put in 3 Ac2's on him. Problem #2 the heat from the AC's being in the same arm was so huge I heated up literally after few seconds. I also had to sacrifice a lot of armor to be able to fit in 3 AC2's making my left side pretty much a one shot for anyone who went for it.

The only 3 ballistic weps I can mount without being total paper is 3 machine guns and I tried that too, they seem to tickle people. I have no idea where to take this mech, any ideas?

#2 TheRealSkar

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:56 AM

Hi,
i have no dragon, so don't know if you can put two Ultra AC5 on it. But i have two of them in my Yen Lo Wang and most people just back off :) Heat generation is pretty low!
You need 10 Slots and 18 Tonns adding 5 Tonns of Ammo (125 Shots). Range and DPS is quite awsome, but you should aim quite well. Ah and they have 90m min range. To fit these in i needed to downgrade my engine :)

But im having lots off fun playing a support, and getting people switch in full reverse.

Edited by TheRealSkar, 04 November 2012 - 11:57 AM.


#3 JingleHell

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

If you want a dragon to be armed and armored like a heavy, you need an XL engine and Endo Steel, as a rule.

The giant engine of doom soaks a lot of weight up.

It's a great mech, if you like positional play. If you want to mount multiple ACs, look at 2xAC2 or 2xAC5, depending on preferred range, and look at what you can do with lasers in the other arm.

Obviously, getting a third AC in there means minimal firepower in the right arm, but you can work with it. The major thing is to fix the engine and not expect it to be a brawler. It's got armor for when you get shot, it has speed to keep that from being often.

#4 Selfish

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:57 PM

I don't see a tangible benefit to the 5N's hardpoints, other than being able to mount 3 AC2 or 3 MG. Both are highly specialized, easy to disable/ignore "joke" builds.

Chances are it's a placeholder for the Yorioshi, or even the Grand Dragon if they aren't making it its own mech type.

#5 Mavairo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:04 PM

View PostMadPanda, on 04 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I've bought 4 mechs and there is only one purchase I deeply regret, it's the Dragon 5N. Like a nuub I just looked that it had 3 ballistic slots and thought I could do some cool stuff with multiple AC's.

Well, problem #1 was that ALL the ballistic points are in the right arm. Alright I tried to make it work and managed to strip everything and put in 3 Ac2's on him. Problem #2 the heat from the AC's being in the same arm was so huge I heated up literally after few seconds. I also had to sacrifice a lot of armor to be able to fit in 3 AC2's making my left side pretty much a one shot for anyone who went for it.

The only 3 ballistic weps I can mount without being total paper is 3 machine guns and I tried that too, they seem to tickle people. I have no idea where to take this mech, any ideas?



AC2 + Gauss Rifle, on an XL 300 engine dragon. up armor your CT, Rear T, and general torso area.
I had room left over to comfortably have 2 medium lasers after the fact in the other arm too. 81KPH and a Gauss Rifle with an AC2 to completely screw over enemy aiming, and long range shooting.

Also, Gauss Rifle, and 2 Large lasers is also wicked fun.

Use Endo Steel on both of these.

I'm falling in love with the 5N now.

Tactically and stragegically, you treat a dragon as if it were an oversized light mech. It's not made to be in the heart of a furball. one look at it's CT size, and massive engine and high speed should make that pretty obvious. Put rounds down range, and keep out of the center of the furball. Your job is to skirt the periphery and nail targets. You hit, and keep out of the Big Guns, primary arcs.

Edited by Mavairo, 04 November 2012 - 02:00 PM.


#6 Kai Harper

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:05 PM

Tri-AC/2 isn't a joke at any decent rage if they have AMS cover. They knock you around, and chip away at your armor - and if you're down to internals they can make short work of you. Admittedly, take off the arm and they're almost useless, but if the pilot can hold you down with AC/2 fire, they can do a lot of damage.

#7 MadPanda

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

View PostMavairo, on 04 November 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:



AC2 + Gauss Rifle, on an XL 300 engine dragon. up armor your CT, Rear T, and general torso area.
I had room left over to comfortably have 2 medium lasers after the fact in the other arm too. 81KPH and a Gauss Rifle with an AC2 to completely screw over enemy aiming, and long range shooting.

Also, Gauss Rifle, and 2 Large lasers is also wicked fun.

Use Endo Steel on both of these.


That sounds pretty good but the xl 300 engine is very expensive. You can almost buy any mech (exlucding some atlas) with the price of the engine. Is it really worth it?

#8 Denin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:41 PM

Until you can afford the xl engine try this. Instead of 3 ac 2's try 1 ac2 and 1 ac5. put them in chain fire mode and you will have a constant barrage of fire to "rock" the enemy hurting their aim. With the firing rate of the ac2 and ac5 it turns into a rhythmic bing bong bing bing bong bing. Usually two tons each of ac2 and ac5 ammo is enough. Total weight of ammo and guns is 18 tons. That should leave you enough weight for some lasers or some missiles. Also Mavairo's strategy for using the dragon is a good one and it works with this design as well.

#9 MadPanda

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:03 PM

View PostDenin, on 04 November 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

put them in chain fire mode


Is this some sort of setting or something? Or are you merely talking about manually trying to fire them one after another?

#10 CrescentCrux

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

Another combo you can look at is a Crit setup: LB-10X and 2x MG. Up close you can peel apart mediums and light mechs, and the guns do crit well. Adding some medium lasers or a large/ER large laser for longer range support and you have yourself a useful mech; But you do need that endo frame and XL, they are a Dragon mainstay.

#11 Tickdoff Tank

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:18 PM

View PostMadPanda, on 04 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:


Is this some sort of setting or something? Or are you merely talking about manually trying to fire them one after another?


Chainfire is toggled with the backspace key. It will allow you to fire one weapon at a time, in sequence, based on their order in the window in the bottom right of your screen.

With a 3 AC2 Dragon I have found that your best rate of fire is by setting 2 of the AC2s in one group and having that group on chainfire, set the 3rd AC2 to a seperate group. Then fire group 1 (chainfire) first, and hit the fire button for the 2nd group *immediately* after starting group one. That gives a staggered fire rate that is very fast and VERY annoying to other pilots. It also does great damage if you can keep up the fire.

#12 Denin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:28 PM

View PostCrescentCrux, on 04 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Another combo you can look at is a Crit setup: LB-10X and 2x MG. Up close you can peel apart mediums and light mechs, and the guns do crit well. Adding some medium lasers or a large/ER large laser for longer range support and you have yourself a useful mech; But you do need that endo frame and XL, they are a Dragon mainstay.


There is currently no evidence that i'm aware of that shows that MG actually do crit well. Also they do not do enough damage to cause the enemy mech to rock. MG's are mainly a visual distraction. Dual ac 2's or a ac2 and ac5 combo provide a distraction, cause the enemy mech to rock, and do actual damage.

All that may change. If I have just missed the evidence on the MG's i'd be happy to see it.

#13 Arcturious

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

My favourite topic! This is by far my favourite chassis and its for one reason. The arms.

In a dragon, your arms are your life. They carry all your most dangerous weapons. With the exception of LRM, you will find the majority of your damage comes from the arms.

With this in mind, the 5N becomes the ultimate dragon variant. There is nothing more satisfying than ducking around a corner at 81+ while shooting practically behind yourself and hitting that torso firing hunch / cat / Jenner etc that is futilely shooting straight ahead and missing you.

https://docs.google....aEE&output=html

I've been tracking builds in there. I have also decided to add in the ones posted in this thread at the bottom, fleshed out to add what I thought would be complimentary loadouts to fill space. If you don't want your name next to it, let me know and I'll remove.

It's a work in progress, if you see anything to change or where my maths is wrong let me know and I'll update.

One thing you will see is that they all rely on at the very least, Endo Steel, XL engines and DHS. These are builds to work towards, once you can afford them.

#14 Tremendous Upside

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:18 PM

The 5N is kind of tricky. Your first impulse is to want to use all three ballistic hardpoints - but ballistic stuff weighs a ton, and even though it's a heavy mech, 60 tons just isn't a lot of room to work with.

The best all-around setup I've found for the 5N (and also works for the 1N) is to build around the gauss rifle and to swap out the LRM rack for SRMs or SSRM2s. You'll have to go with an XL engine for sure - but it's worth it. With an XL300 you'll be running at 87kph after the speed tweak pilot unlock, so you'll have plenty of speed to use the cover you'll need to compensate for your lack of durability. Endo and DHS aren't requirements to run this build - but both definitely help. The only real negative is that with both of those (and the XL engine), you're looking at massive repair bills. It's certainly not a good "cb-farmer", but that's what YLW's for...

#15 Dewil

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:11 AM

I choose the Dragon 5N because it looks better than the other 2 variants and have for the last month or two come up with a build that I really like.

XL300 engine (this is to be considered the minimum size engine for a Dragon. Speed is key)
Gauss rifle + 4 tons of ammo (Good damage and range, lets you stand back and give support from a distance)
2 Medium Lasers (for when the enemy gets closer)
SRM6 + 1 ton of ammo (for when the enemy gets really close)
320 armor and 2 extra heat-sinks

Sure, I dont use up every hardpoint on it but that is not necessary for any mech. My job in the group is to be the cavalry. I hang back behind the main battle and take my shots with the Gauss rifle until lsomeone in my team calls for my assistance. Then I can use my speed of 81kph to get there in time. Or when we're making a rush up one flank I'm the first mech behind the 2 scouts. They find the best target for me and when I'm the first one from our main assault group over the hill I already know who to attack.

But the engine is key! I sometimes put as much as 25 armor in my back because if I end up in a bad situation I want to be able to run away from it. And with a top speed of 81kph you can be up there with the scouts or hang back and act as a fast reserve.

#16 Mavairo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:46 AM

View PostMadPanda, on 04 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:


That sounds pretty good but the xl 300 engine is very expensive. You can almost buy any mech (exlucding some atlas) with the price of the engine. Is it really worth it?


Definitely. It allows your dragons to raise their punching power across the board (not just the 5N) if you have mech points, and really want to get into a Dragon before you can afford to buy one, bet the AS7K Atlas, rip the XL 300 off and Gauss of it, and sell it. (This also gets you a Gauss if you do not have one. couple matches later you can get the 2 Large Lasers too to try that variant out. The great thing about the LL + Gauss is if someone takes your ballistics arm you still have 2 large lasers to contribute to the fight with)

Not only does it increase your punching power but you'll have more room for armor. the Dragons CT and very very small ST (side torsos), also make the XL 300 a very safe bet since 99 percent of the time (or more honestly. I have -never- lost side armor on the dragon without my CT also being in a very sorry state as well) people are trying to hit your CT and not tiny STs. Armor + heat sink + better weapons that's a winner of an option.

Honestly I think the reason why most people give up on the Dragon (any of it's variants) is because they don't do this. They expect that massive 300 engine and pea shooter weapons loadouts to carry them. (you can also do Double AC2s, and then have a pair of LPL on it too if you want to get really nutso with a 300 XL) They see "heavy mech" with an 81 kph and go "Man this thing should be invincible!" and get chewed to pieces without ever putting real damage down range.

Or they think "it has an 81 speed... I can put a lighter standard engine in it and be ok" This makes them even easier to pop even if they load up on more armor. In my opinion, a dragon is at it's finest when -at most- it's lost only 5kph, or is at 81kph, or Faster. It's your light mech, or assault mechs best friend on the battlefield. The former because if if the enemy is sending lights after your lights all of the sudden a sped up dragon (try a dragon with an XL 360... 97 kph. ) shows up around the corner dumping big weapons into their face. And it's a 2v1, or at best 2v2. with a Light, and a very fast very agile heavy that still has ALOT of firepower on the field.

The reason your friendly assaults will learn to love it is there are very few mechs in the game that are effective as light mech killers. The dragon (1N, 1C or 5N) is among the best of these for this job. Friendly awesome or atlas is being harassed by a pair of lights? The light mech propaganda committe will say "we'll murder anyone like that! :o) until they eat a guass rifle in the back from out of no-where and then they realize the guy packing Gauss is almost as fast as they are, has absolutely amazing arm weapons (and thus every easy weapon tracking) and has a fairly quick rotating torso. Then they break off and run because an Atlas in the hands of a good pilot (or awesome) can still put a hurting on one of those lights. And now you have a guy that can easily push the fight over the edge.

That's another part of ''moving in the pocket'' is getting harassment off of your friendly assaults. It doesn't take much, sometimes it's just 2 Gauss salvos, and some AC2 or LL fire (on my 5n), with a stream srm2 backing it all up. Sometimes they don't get it, get stupid and die horribly. Either way that Assault mech will survive long enough easily, for us to at least tie up the harass mechs up, and then the LRM rain comes in from other friendlies. Because the dragon is also fast enough to easily maintain locks.

The 300 XL is definitely worth it.
Sure I could have bought a mech with that money. But honestly you're going to end up spending some serious dough upgrading that mech anyway, and it might not fufill what your team needs. And every team needs at least one good skirmisher, or long range fire support mech. The dragon is pretty much the Go To mech for these needs. Lights are amazing in combat while built appropriately true. But the lights still do not take hits as well as a heavy. You already got the dragon mech. Any mech you get at this point instead you're going to have to invest at least as much as the cost of a given XL engine, + wargear anyway + mech cost. I've spent far more Cbills to get an even bigger XL engine for another one of my dragons. my 1C has the XL360 engine, and moves at 97.4 kph. (And I don't even have the Elite Speed Upgrade yet) It carries 2 LLs and 2 MLs and a streak 2. It's frigging amazing.

If you go with my Gauss 5ns by the way, once people figure out where that Gauss and AC2 fire is coming from, they will try to come after you. Use your speed to best effect, and move ''in the pocket''. Either disappear behind terrain, or lead the enemies to your assault mechs and call the target that's chasing. After everyone else has opened up turn around and let an Alpha go down range. It works like a charm :)

Edited by Mavairo, 05 November 2012 - 07:22 AM.


#17 Josef Nader

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:19 AM

The real strength of the 5N is not the 3 ballistic hardpoints, but that all it's weapons (well, aside from your missile rack, but that hardly matters) are in your arms. It makes him a really effective, precise mech. The two builds I've had work well for me are a 2 LPL/3 MG build (strip armor with the LPLs, then use the machine guns to critseek while you're cooling down) and pretty much any combination of your favorite ballistics and laser configuration. Because they're both in your arms, you can do some really fancy piloting and still lay into people from far more angles than they can hit you and not suffer any damage reduction from it. It's actually my favorite Dragon variant for that reason alone.

#18 Flying Fish

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:43 AM

I share ur pain dude, i bought the 5n for the same reason as u. those 3 hardpoints are tempting, but not enough room for anything great. I run my 5N with a LBX10, srm6, and 2 med lasers. its hit or miss, great up close 1 on 1 because of its speed, but if you get double teamed ur best course of action is to bug out... im running endo steel but no xl engine which is great for costs, if i could afford an xl engine id prob throw a large laser in the left arm for some long range capabilities

#19 MadPanda

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:46 AM

I did as you suggested Mavairo. I already had the atlas-K purchased (my first mech) so I ripped the xl-300 engine from him. I tried first what you suggested with the gauss/ac2 combo with two med pulse lasers on the other hand but I found myself heating up really quickly. I dropped the ac2 because I also felt that wasn't serving me at all but was only generating a lot of heat. I also dropped the two medium pulse lasers because they heated up too fast as well.

So after some trial I ended up with a gauss with 6 ton of ammo (keeps me well served through out the game) and a large pulse laser on the other hand. I'm using both armor and structure upgrades (my slots are tight as a fiddle). And I must admit this new pimped up dragon is a beast! I'm on top of the damage dealt chart almost every game and racking up kills nicely. The good movement speed and the arm targeting are really good. Looks like my dragon went from crap to gold, thanks to everyone for good advices! I'm using the dragon now as my main mech and having a lot of fun.

#20 Raso

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

Since the Dragon is made of almost 75% center torso the XL engine is a great choice for it since you need to take it out from the sides.





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