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#1 Memory

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:06 PM

I come to you now mwomercs discussion forum, with my hat in my hands, embarrassed. I am embarrassed because I have said over and over again in countless posts that nothing is OP and that everything is fine. I've spent countless paragraphs explaining to people that Gauss rifles are not too strong and that they are supposed to be that way. That they are easy to beat if you know how to Dodge. I've written whole diatribes against complainers who whine and moan because they don't know how to counter and defeat Streak cats and LRM boats because with all my experience I believed that all these things had a fair counter and all these things had a rock-paper-scissors style foil. And you know what? I was right. Back then I was anyway.....

Enter Artemis IV.

Today we got a new toy. Artemis allows missile flight paths to loop up and over ANY cover that isnt capped on top. Since there is very little cover that is capped on top, we'll just say that Artemis renders cover useless. Artemis Also groups the missiles very very........VERY tightly. So much so that the missiles have a tendency to hit just one or two components on the target mech. Like, I dunno, say, the COCKPIT??? Artemis also tends to drop directly on top of the target in an extremely rapid fashion, rendering AMS completely impotent. Even geoups of 4-6 AMS have nearly no effect on the damage done or time-to-kill (this was tested over a series of matches using tightly grouped Atlas-Ks ). So, that said let's take a quick inventory. LRMs have a handy downside in that with smart maneuvering any pilot can avoid being hit by them by using cover, AMS, and by taking advantage of the longer TTK (as compared to direct fire weapons) to close within the minimum effective range. Artemis eliminates ALL of the existing downsides or "counters" to LRMs listed above.

So I say again. I must come to you with humility and embarrassment and admit to you all with a heartfelt apology that now...(only now) are LRMs over-powered. When I played today and tested the new features against my current builds I was shocked and horrified. Members of my own team were using these things to decimate the enemy team so effectively that the LRM boats on both sides were the only mechs with kills. This weapon has utterly shattered the balance of LRMs so thoroughly that I am at a complete loss as to what to do. I have spent hours playing and trying to discover a way to counter this and i am completely empty handed. I have been made a fool of and it does not feel good.

So this thread is here for three reasons: to apologize, to make a point about the balance of these weapons, and to ask for the input the community. Let's get constructive. How can we counter Artemis assisted LRM boats? What strategies and loadouts have you used with any success against them?

Ground rules: don't say AMS, because I tried that. It worked against the old LRMs but not against these. And don't say ECM because we can't use that yet.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by Memory, 06 November 2012 - 06:09 PM.


#2 Sandpit

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:09 PM

Well AMS is supposedly not working correctly at moment which I think might be having a factor but I can't quote anyone from the dev team on this.

#3 Kaijin

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:19 PM

46 posts are hardly "countless" :)

#4 Leetskeet

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:20 PM

Posted Image

Your face when this patch

#5 Memory

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

View PostKaijin, on 06 November 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

46 posts are hardly "countless" :)


Perhaps, Lol, but it still felt like a lifetime of arguing.

Got any input on he topic?

#6 Cragger

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

First off I would like to say that was a very well written post Memory.

Second it really is a shock if you think about it how things ended up being this way.

The current Artemis IV trajectory for indirect fire is the very trajectory LRMs first had in the actual beta and this caused an uproar with the closed beta testers. To combat this the LRM trajectory was changed to be how it was without Artemis IV and the missile spread increased and AMS was introduced. This rendered LRMs to be a very annoying harrassing weapon and to wear down the armor of a large opponent (Atlas) from a distance before you engaged them, to soften them up in otherwords.

This was exactly how LRMs were used in TT and why pure LRM mechs were a rarity. So to address the complaints from LRM exclusive players not getting any kills they DOUBLED the damage of the LRMs and enhanced their tracking. A LRM 20 salve now did the most damage of any weapon in one salvo for 40 damage.

In case you've never played Battletech AC20 got the named AC20 not for the caliber because the actual caliber of the weapons varied inside a group but because it did 20 damage. Same for LRM, LRM 10 shot 10 missiles at 1 damage hence 10 damage.

And now we have Artemis IV with the return of the ridiculous high arc LRM trajectory coupled with the boosted tracking and double damage and now you have LRMs actually far more powerful and ridiculous then they were at the start of the closed beta... seriouly... wtf.

#7 Memory

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:22 PM

View PostLeetskeet, on 06 November 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Posted Image

Your face when this patch


Pretty much! Lol.

#8 Memory

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:28 PM

View PostCragger, on 06 November 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

First off I would like to say that was a very well written post Memory.

Second it really is a shock if you think about it how things ended up being this way.

The current Artemis IV trajectory for indirect fire is the very trajectory LRMs first had in the actual beta and this caused an uproar with the closed beta testers. To combat this the LRM trajectory was changed to be how it was without Artemis IV and the missile spread increased and AMS was introduced. This rendered LRMs to be a very annoying harrassing weapon and to wear down the armor of a large opponent (Atlas) from a distance before you engaged them, to soften them up in otherwords.

This was exactly how LRMs were used in TT and why pure LRM mechs were a rarity. So to address the complaints from LRM exclusive players not getting any kills they DOUBLED the

damage of the LRMs and enhanced their tracking. A LRM 20 salve now did the most damage of any weapon in one salvo for 40 damage.

In case you've never played Battletech AC20 got the named AC20 not for the caliber because the actual caliber of the weapons varied inside a group but because it did 20 damage. Same for LRM, LRM 10 shot 10 missiles at 1 damage hence 10 damage.

And now we have Artemis IV with the return of the ridiculous high arc LRM trajectory coupled with the boosted tracking and double damage and now you have LRMs actually far more powerful and ridiculous then they were at the start of the closed beta... seriouly... wtf.


I was around for the trajectory changes you mentioned, though AMS was already in the game when I started, so I know where you are coming from on this. The real problem with this is the tendency the missiles have to insta-cockpit some mechs (Centurion, Dragon, and hunchback come to mind) due to the locality of the missiles where they hit. I'm OK with Artemis rendering cover useless, since that is a reasonable way to enhance them, but the tighter grouping is just too far when coupled with the increased damage you mentioned.

#9 TigreTek

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:32 PM

aren't LRM damage rates currently doubled? if so, reset to original damage values.

#10 Alexandrix

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:38 PM

Let's have a look at the sarna.net description of the artemis IV FCS,shall we? I've bolded and underlined the part i find to be the most vexing.

"Introduced in 2598 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. The Artemis IV Fire Control System is a guidance system that utilizes an infrared laser designator and tight-beam microwave transmitter which improves the accuracy of LRMs, SRMs, and MMLs by roughly thirty-five percent. The Artemis IV FCS must be mounted in the same location as the launcher it controls, taking up space and weight on aBattleMech like other components.[2] In order to actually take the benefit of Artemis IV, the missiles fired must be Artemis compatible, which are more expensive than standard versions, and the firing unit must have line of sight to its target, indirectly fired LRM receives no increase in accuracy.

Though extremely useful for improving a missile launcher, there is one major obstacle to their use: If any standard missile launcher is equipped with an Artemis system, every launcher of that type must have its own Artemis IV attached.[3] Therefore a 'Mech mounting an LRM-15 and an LRM-5 would need two Artemis IV systems. (As they use different guidance systems, Rocket Launchers, MRMs, Streak launchers, and NARC systems do not require Artemis IV and do not count towards this limit.) ATMlaunchers automatically have Artemis included."

Why then,does this increase ALL LRM'S fire with or without LOS? Artemis was supposed to improve the ability for LRM's to be direct LOS fired weapons.So why is it all missiles get this bonus.At the very least,if a mech wishes to get this bonus it should have to expose itself to return fire.Not that it makes much difference because an Atlas with 3 LRM launchers is still going to one shot you before you can make any difference,but at least in that case they can't arc over cover and straight down on your head.

Edited by Alexandrix, 06 November 2012 - 06:40 PM.


#11 Graevik

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:01 PM

I think Alexandrix may be on to the fix for this problem. Make Artemis act like it does in ALL the other rulesets. TAG boosts your indirect fire chance to hit and Artemis improves your LOS.

#12 Memory

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:35 PM

View PostGraevik, on 06 November 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I think Alexandrix may be on to the fix for this problem. Make Artemis act like it does in ALL the other rulesets. TAG boosts your indirect fire chance to hit and Artemis improves your LOS.


I agree with this as a fix on the side of the devs as i think if you want to have this kind of devastating damage and fast ttk you should be required to use the co-ordination of your scouts on top of the resource investment in Artemis.

However, without trying to sound like a tool, I don't think this kind of discussion will help the situation. The devs are very likely to heed any complaints in this thread, and speculating on what the devs could change to fix it is likely not to get very far.

I would instead like to talk about ways to defeat this equipment in the field. What sort of strategies can we use to eliminate the threat of Artemis equipped LRM boats.

#13 SpiralRazor

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:45 PM

You rush them....just like you did before...get under the 180 and all the LRMS in the game are useless. River City is very hard on LRM boating teams.

#14 Insidious Johnson

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:54 PM

Artemis counter: focus fire all scouts dead. Stay in cover and bait missile fire until they are out of LRMs, then the game will end and it will be about getting just one kill past the scouts on either team to win... or ties on timers running out. Happy camping, and welcome back to MW4!

#15 Memory

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:55 PM

View PostSpiralRazor, on 06 November 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

You rush them....just like you did before...get under the 180 and all the LRMS in the game are useless. River City is very hard on LRM boating teams.



That was actually the first thing I tried. And thats when i discovered that Artemis can insta-cockpit you in a single volley. I'm not kidding. I reproduced this. Rushing does not work, because you die before you can cross the distance even by half. And I know what you might be thinking: use cover to approach! Unfortunately, Artemis ignores cover completely. River City or caustic, cover or not, the result was the same in all attempts. The only way I got close was when the LRM boat targeted was just plain dumb and didnt pay attention to my approach. Can't depend on that all the time....

#16 Memory

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:59 PM

View PostInsidious Johnson, on 06 November 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Artemis counter: focus fire all scouts dead. Stay in cover and bait missile fire until they are out of LRMs, then the game will end and it will be about getting just one kill past the scouts on either team to win... or ties on timers running out. Happy camping, and welcome back to MW4!


Tried that too. Hiding and waiting for the LRM ammo to run out doesn't quite work either because you can't even bait LRM fire without getting killed. Remember, cover fails completely, and you can be insta-killed in one volley if you're unlucky.

That said, I would love to hear some more specifics if you have gotten this to work. How were you able to bait the LRM fire without getting killed yourself?

#17 Gunghoe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

bout to sell my scout to get a hunch back

#18 Cragger

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

I've actually watched Artemis LRMS today not do just an 90 degree immediate turn towards to top strike their target but actually fly past and then do 120 degree dives into the back armor of targets instantly killing them.

Addendum: Alright I'm done, I'll check back in the morrow to see if there is an update to this because I just watched a team of four on my team. Three Catapult A1s and a Jenner. Jenner had no weapons just armor, ams and speed. Ran straight to the other side of the caldera on Caustic and each Catapult A1 decked out with LRM 15s and Artemis IV took a target and eliminated 3 of the other team in under the first minute of the match.

Wanted to fire my AC20 into they backs so bad for such ruinous exploitation of bad mechanics to stat pad and fill their banks.

Edited by Cragger, 06 November 2012 - 08:13 PM.


#19 Memory

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:23 PM

View PostCragger, on 06 November 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I've actually watched Artemis LRMS today not do just an 90 degree immediate turn towards to top strike their target but actually fly past and then do 120 degree dives into the back armor of targets instantly killing them.

Addendum: Alright I'm done, I'll check back in the morrow to see if there is an update to this because I just watched a team of four on my team. Three Catapult A1s and a Jenner. Jenner had no weapons just armor, ams and speed. Ran straight to the other side of the caldera on Caustic and each Catapult A1 decked out with LRM 15s and Artemis IV took a target and eliminated 3 of the other team in under the first minute of the match.

Wanted to fire my AC20 into they backs so bad for such ruinous exploitation of bad mechanics to stat pad and fill their banks.


Honestly, I wouldn't even think of blaming the players, as they are just playing with their new toys.

I have, However, been talking to folks from my corporation who have tried using a 4-man Lance of Atlas K fitted with twin AMS, XL 325 engines, 4 medium Lasers and LRM20. They said they rushed the enemy cap at about 55kph and stayed as a very tight group. Even with 8 AMS running they still lost at least one of the Atlas to LRM fire and only managed to win 8/10 games. Otherwise the combination of speed, AMS umbrella, and Return LRM fire seems to be working, but I worry about this strat because it seems like using 4 Assaults is a bit one dimensional, not to mention that piloting an assault is not as fun for everybody.

#20 Krivvan

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:36 PM

I didn't consider LRMs OP before, but figured/knew/scryed/rumour-milled that Artemis would push them way over the edge. And yup, it did.





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