21 replies to this topic

[Angelicon]

I played Battletech back in the 80s and recently bought the CBT boxed set "for my son" on his birthday

In my opinion, one of the things that is showing its age is the move+fire system. I am toying with adopting a phased movement and fire system for some testing. Champions hero roleplaying used one, and I really appreciated the mechanic.

Quick Overview of Phased Movement
- break a game turn up into 12 phases.
- your mech's declared speed determines how many phases it gets to use for movement. So your walking TDR might move one hex in phases 1, 4, 8, and 12. Your running Locust would move one hex every phase.

Weapons Fire
- Weapons can fire in any phase, even if you aren't moving that phase.
- Weapons cycle based on their Heat output. So a Large Laser could fire in phase 1, and then again in phase 9. However an AC-5 would fire every other turn if desired.
- This could very likely make ballistic weapons overpowered, but I really want to try this and see how it affects the balance. Will those machine guns on the Locust be a threat now?

Has anyone here tried anything like this? Have any good house rules emerged along these lines?

[wwiiogre]

great idea, would love to see how it played out, but your system changes the firing dynamics of the weapon systems which is at its core the balance part of the game.

would be interesting to see how this worked out and if it unbalanced the game or not

chris

[Knt Maverick]

FIrstly.. i'm not much of the Tabletop player... i wouldn't know how to keep track of all the movement/fireing/elevation & speed changes.. and many of the nit-pick'ns of the game, though.. i DO love the details.. just not good at it. ANYWHO..with my "tabletop" knowledge only coming from the computerized version "MegaMek" i think it'd be a great idea to impliment, like Chris said, i'd love to see how it worked out and whether or not it caused an imbalance.

MGs were always a threat, but the downsides were that 1, you had to get WAY too close, and 2, for damage to truely count from them, either had to have many (Locust and Pirahna), or had to sustain long duration of fast fire rate (light damage over time adds up quickly)

however, your move "phase" and fire "phase" idea seems to mimic the CCG variation relitivly closely (i know a bit more about the CCG than the TT) and i for one would gladly jump on the chance to play a "MegaMek" variation with your phase concept

[Curon Hifor]

This reminds me a lot of Federation Commander and Starfleet Battles. Perhaps you're drawing from those games for inspiration?

Still, I'd be interested in seeing how this pans out, especially if you got folks together for a playtest.

[Thomas de Ville]

Good idea, I like it.

[SiriusBeef]

Curon Hifor, on 17 April 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

This reminds me a lot of Federation Commander and Starfleet Battles. Perhaps you're drawing from those games for inspiration?

Still, I'd be interested in seeing how this pans out, especially if you got folks together for a playtest.

or Car Wars...

[Angelicon]

SiriusBeef, on 17 April 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

or Car Wars...

Or Champions, as I mentioned in my OP.

I've seen others float this idea years back, it's not really new, but I don't know of anyone actually doing it and reporting the results of how it affects gameplay.

Edited by Angelicon, 17 April 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Ian MacLeary]

A couple of things to remember:

In SFB, weapons could only fire once per turn (with a few exceptions, such as Gatling Phasers). In addition, they had a minimum delay of 8 impulses before they could be fired again; no firing on impulse 32 and then again on impulse 1, for example (which was important since it was not possible to move on impulse 1). This prevented alpha-striking someone after burning down their shields without giving them a chance to move away.

You say the LL could fire in phase 1 and again in phase 9, it being an 8 heat weapon. But you then say the AC/5 could only fire every other phase... so shouldn't the LL fire in 1 and 10, as it has to skip 8 phases?

Making the weapons firing rate dependent upon the heat changes the balance of weapons significantly. For example, it changes the DPT (damage per turn) of energy weapons - if I fire a PPC on phase 1, I can't fire it again until phase 11 (or 12, if you have to wait the full time after firing) for 20 DPT. Meanwhile, I could have fired a Small Laser 6 times - 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 - for 18 DPT and one-quarter the heat. A LL would only get 16 DPT; a ML would only get 10 DPT.

How does the rapid firing of lower-heat weapons affect the heat curve? Do you still only check heat at the end of the turn? Or is it on a phase-by-phase basis, and if so, what fraction of the heat is dissipated by the heat-sinks each phase?

I'm not saying don't try this... just that you might want to put some more thought into it before playtesting.

[Angelicon]

I understand the potential, and likely, imbalances this will cause. It's a rough idea right now, but i'm a "jump in and try it" type, so I'll be play-testing this sooner rather than later

Heat
I've mulled over the idea of dividing a mech's heatsinks by 12 and applying that much heat dissipation per phase, but I think that is going to complicate things unnecessarily. I'll start with heat calculations at end of turn -- if you fire your PPC twice, you deal with +20 heat. If you fire your AC-5 five times, that's +5 heat, etc.
I -might- look at putting a heat limit in place to prevent mechs like the Awesome from doing a 3xPPCxTwice in one round Deathblossom attack. Not sure how much -- maybe twice your total heatsinks. I'll decide that after some testing.

Range
High heat weapons like the PPC and ERLL are definitely going to suffer, but I'm also toying with the idea of increasing the range of all weapons by x1.5 or x2.0. This will mean the long range weapons (which are generally high heat) have more time to deal their damage before the short range brawlers can get in close and apply a barrage of rapidly fired AC20 rounds to the mix.

Gauss Rifle
This weapon is probably my biggest concern using Heat as a firing rate limiter. 6 shots per turn? YIKES.
Perhaps we need a firing rate limiter besides heat...

Gunnery Skill
Along with Heat, Gunnery skill could be used as a limiter on how often you can fire weapons. For example:
- Green pilot with 5 gunnery can fire every 6th phase (he requires 5 phases of "reset" between each salvo). So he might fire on phases 1 and phase 7, or on phases 4 and 10, etc.
- Veteran pilot with 3 gunnery can fire every 4rd phase (he requires 3 phases of "reset" between each salvo). So he could fire on phases 1, 5, and 9, or on phases 4, 8, and 12, etc
- Elite pilot with 2 gunnery could fire on phases 2, 5, 8, 11

So while a small laser could theoretically fire every other phase (1 Heat = 1 Reset phase per firing), the pilot's skill would be more restrictive and reduce small laser spamming.
On the flip side, even though a pilot might be able to fire 4 times per turn, his PPC would only reset once for a pair of firings in that time frame.

--

Wow, lots to test, now I just need some time to do so. I'm excited to see how some of the "flavor" mech designs behave under these rules; you know the ones with one LRM5, one LL, an SRM2 or a small laser -- random, headscratcher weapon loadouts that are really lackluster in CBT could be much more interesting.

[Pht]

Tactical Operations, pg 86 said:

Opportunity Fire:
Instead of attacking during the Weapon Attack Phase of a turn, a unit may elect to watch for enemy units to come closer or into line of sight and then launch an attack immediately. Such attacks are called opportunity fire. Players should note that opportunity fire can make the game much more complicated because it allows attacks to be made outside the normal sequence of play. Players should carefully consider the impact of this optional rule before incorporating it into their game. During any Weapon Attack Phase, in place of making a weapon attack, a controlling player may announce the unit is in “Overwatch” mode. From that point on, the unit’s player watches for a chance to strike, and the unit may not move or make any attacks until the controlling player announces that he is taking opportunity fire. At any time during the Movement Phase of any subsequent turn, a player controlling any unit previously said to be in Overwatch mode can announce opportunity fire.

Opportunity Fire: Firing on the Move:
In standard rules, all units move and then all units fire. However, the ability to snap off a quick shot as a unit moves from cover to cover can often be a valid and crucial tactic. As with the Opportunity Fire rules (above), the ability to interrupt movement with weapon attacks can significantly increase not only the complexity, but the length of a game, so all players should firmly review this rule before deciding to add it to a game. During the Movement Phase, a controlling player can announce at any time (either before MP are spent, during the expenditure of MP, or after all MP have been spent) that the unit being moved is making a weapon attack.

There's rules for that ...


If you want the details of the rules ... :http://www.battlecor...roducts_id=2123

Edited by Pht, 19 April 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[Angelicon]

I don't think that has anything to do with phased movement and allowing weapons to fire multiple times per turn. Good source nonetheless.

[JackCrow]

Interesting idea. Doesn't Heavy Gear Blitz have a system like that?

[Angelicon]

JackCrow, on 25 April 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Interesting idea. Doesn't Heavy Gear Blitz have a system like that?

Hmm, dunno as I have not played that.

I would -really- like to find some time to try this. Grrrrrr RL!

[Azantia]

I have played a TON of tabletop Angelicon here are my thoughts :

Since you are "phasing" movement, what happens to the modifiers to the "to-hit" roll based upon mech movement from the tabletop rules?

Weapon recycle times cannot be based on heat, they must be independently balanced or re-worked

How much time is "each phase?" 2 seconds? 3? 5? 6? 10?

all the base rules for weapons in battletech assume that the weapons are dealing damage over "10 seconds" so a medium laser might fire multiple times in that 10 seconds, where as a Gauss Rifle or PPC might only fire once.

Heat is a problem, how you manage the rules for it will have a huge impact on weapon balance.

Overall the idea is pretty cool and would add and interesting new mechanic to the game.

Next question : What about jump jets? how are they handled? how do you handle the rules for "a mech in mid-jump" At what elevation are they considered for LOS issues?

the list could go on.....but answer these questions first.

[Angelicon]

Azantia, on 25 April 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Since you are "phasing" movement, what happens to the modifiers to the "to-hit" roll based upon mech movement from the tabletop rules?

They remain the same. Since you have to declare your "speed" at the beginning of the turn to determine your movement phases,

Quote

Weapon recycle times cannot be based on heat, they must be independently balanced or re-worked

Heat was the initial idea I gleaned from elsewhere, and while it has some attraction for me, I agree. I'm leaning toward a more generic weapon cycle time solution. (more on this below)

Quote

How much time is "each phase?" 2 seconds? 3? 5? 6? 10?
...
all the base rules for weapons in battletech assume that the weapons are dealing damage over "10 seconds" so a medium laser might fire multiple times in that 10 seconds, where as a Gauss Rifle or PPC might only fire once.

Assuming there are 12 phases, that's about a second per phase. Mechs that move faster than 12 hexes per turn will just opt to move two hexes rather than one in some phases.
As far as how much damage a ML can do versus a PPC in the same amount of time goes, I'm planning on shaking that up a bit. I am of the opinion that a ML at short range firing every chance it can get should be feared as much as a PPC firing as often as it can. I want short range weapon systems to be brutal at that range. If a sniper wants a long range weapon, and wants to keep his advantage, he had better bring friends or be able to keep range open for a while.
So if a ML fires 3 or 4 times in a turn and the PPC only fires once, I'm ok with that as long as the PPC has a good chance of slapping the short range mech around as it approaches.
This brings another point which I don't recall mentioning and don't care to scroll back to see -- I'd like to double the ranges of all weapons. I want range to mean something, and not be a one-turn hurdle for faster brawler mechs. If you want to melee my fire support mechs, you'd better find cover on the way in or start praying, because I'm of the opinion that running for one turn to close the distance from "long" to "inside minimum" is too easy. And if smaller weapons get the boost I anticipate from multiple firings per turn, then long range weapons are going to appreciate longer range in exchange.

Quote

Heat is a problem, how you manage the rules for it will have a huge impact on weapon balance.

Correct! This will require extensive play testing to work out. How heat combines with the firing rate of a given weapon will be interesting to see. Heat by itself will limit a weapon's damage output -- I mean even if we allowed all weapons to fire every other phase, the heat output would limit most of them to a reasonable DPS. As mentioned before, weapons like the Gauss Rifle would be a problem just using heat as a limiter. Likely there will need to be a new line added to the Weapon stats chart for "cycle time".

Quote

Next question : What about jump jets? how are they handled? how do you handle the rules for "a mech in mid-jump" At what elevation are they considered for LOS issues?

Another good question. My initial idea was you could declare "jumping" in any of your movement phases but you had to say where you were jumping to, and if it carried over into the next turn's phases you were locked into it. But that would be annoying to keep track of. So my next idea was to force the player to declare the use of JJs at the beginning of the move phase, and borrow a bookkeeping idea from another forum. If my mech were to jump, I'd place a blue six-sided die next to its base. The number on the die would represent how many +elevation levels this mech was at in any given phase. I don't see LOS determination as being a problem since in the base game we're imagining elevation on a flat map anyway.

[Tadakuma]

The only phased movement game that I remember playing is Starfleet Battles and I can honestly say that it is a painful mechanic that makes the turn far more drawn out (it takes about 30 minutes to do a turn with 3-4 ships in starship battles, one you include drones, PDFs and figters it can takke even longer)

Battletech has enough of an issue with turn bloat as it is. Making it more complex doesn't seem like a great idea.

[COL Chuck U Farley]

I remember Star Fleet Battles and Car Wars as being a blast. The 'bookkeeping' aspect is not difficult if you do a little work beforehand. I designed a sheet to help with the 'bloat' as one of us put it in the original TT game and it worked really well [it was also a record of the battle afterward] - If you can design a cheat-sheet, if you will, for your phases and figure out what needs to be recorded in each block, speed will come.

[RangerRob]

Interesting theory...But I think it might slow the game down quite a bit mroe than it already is.

Sounds a little like the original Solaris VII rules which brings in weapon cycle rates.

Phased movment would be good for a duel, but more than a couple mechs on the table...ugh...pack a lunch and a sleeping bag.

[Sychodemus]

BT already has too many phases

Fast and dirty rules:

Choose one: Move and fire; or fire and move. Use this turn's (or the previous turn's) movement modifiers. (On the first turn the default is a "walk.") Apply sudden death rules if you feel cheeky.

[TheRulesLawyer]

JackCrow, on 25 April 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Interesting idea. Doesn't Heavy Gear Blitz have a system like that?

No. Heavy Gear Blitz (The current iteration) is by platoon, move each guy one at a time with opportunity fire possible.


OP- The trouble with phase is it slows down an already fairly slow game. There is a limit on how much detail you can get in a tabletop and still finish a game in a reasonable time.