33 replies to this topic

[Chuckie]

More proof of how Awesome an Awesome will be.. All while proving how ODD the new rules may or may not be..
AWS-8Q = 3 PPCs, and small laser =
4 Energy HP (10 E Crits)

AWS-8R - The 8R variant of the Awesome was introduced in 2683[5], and is also focused on long range damage but dispenses with the traditional energy-based loadout, armed with two LRM-15 launchers and a Large Laser, but also retains the Small Laser.
2 energy HP, 2 ballistic HP (3 E Crits, 6 B Crits) = 9 Weapon Crits

AWS-8T - Introduced in 2815[5] and taking the concept of the 8R further, the 8T removed five heat sinks and replaces them with an additional Large Laser while retaining the two LRM-15s of the 8R.
3 energy HP, 2 ballistic HP (5 E Crits, 6 B Crits) = 11 Weapon Crits

AWS-8V - An attempt to meld the concepts behind the 8R with the 8Q, the 8V was introduced in 2980[5]. It is armed with a single PPC, an LRM-15 launcher, and a Large Laser. This mix of weapons allows the Awesome to keep up a constant barrage after it has depleted its LRM ammunition.

2 energy HP, 1 ballistic HP (5 E Crits, 3 B Crits) = 8 Weapon Crits

AWS-9M - The 9M is an upgrade of the Awesome that uses Star League technologies, and was introduced in 3049[5]. The 'Mech is built around a 320 Hermes XL Fusion engine, giving the 'Mech a top speed of 64.8 km/h. The heat sinks were upgraded to double heat sinks to allow this variant to be rearmed with three Fusigon Longtooth ER PPCs. The ER PPCs are backed up by two Hovertec Streak SRM-2s, a Magna 400P Medium Pulse Laser, and a Diverse Optics Type 10 Small Pulse Laser.

5 energy HP, 2 ballistic (11 E Crits, 2 B crits) = 13 Weapon Crits

OK.. NOW found this for those of us without TT Rules handy..

type heat dam min short med long weight crit cost
ac 02 1 2 4 8 16 24 6 1 C 75 K
ac 05 1 5 3 6 12 18 8 4 C 125 K
ac 05 ultra 1 5 2 6 13 20 9 5 C 200 K
ac 10 3 10 5 10 15 12 7 C 200 K
ac 10-X 2 10 6 12 18 11 6 C 400 K
ac 20 7 20 3 6 9 14 10 C 300 K
Flamer 3 2 1 2 3 1 1 C 8 K
Gauss Rifle 1 15 2 7 15 22 15 7 C 300 K
laser ER lg 12 8 7 14 19 5 2 C 200 K
laser lg 8 8 5 10 15 5 2 C 100 K
laser lg pulse 10 9 3 7 10 7 2 C 175 K
laser med 3 5 3 6 9 1 1 C 40 K
laser med pulse 4 6 2 4 6 2 1 C 60 K
laser sm 1 3 1 2 3 0.5 1 C 11 K
laser sm pulse 2 3 1 2 3 1 1 C 16 K
lrm05 2 1/m 6 7 14 21 2 1 C 30 K
lrm10 4 1/m 6 7 14 21 5 2 C 100 K
lrm15 5 1/m 6 7 14 21 7 3 C 175 K
lrm20 6 1/m 6 7 14 21 10 5 C 250 K
mg 0 2 1 2 3 0.5 1 C 5 K
PPC 10 10 3 6 12 18 7 3 C 200 K
PPC ER 15 10 7 14 23 7 3 C 300 K
srm2 2 2/m 3 6 9 1 1 C 10 K
srm2 streak 2 * 3 6 9 1.5 1 C 15 K
srm4 3 2/m 3 6 9 2 1 C 60 K
srm6 4 2/m 3 6 9 3 2 C 80 K


Like MW4 I assume crits will be placed in different sections so in the case of the 9M, you would get one B Crit in each shoulder.. ? OR something like that.

So the CHUCKIE (MY Name I CALLED IT... !) Will be a AWS-C1 = 2 ER PPCs; 3 MED Pulse; and a LRM 10, and a AMS, the extra 4.5 tons will go into an extra Double Heat Sink.. and upgrade of the 320XL to a 335XL.. IF that would do anything.. otherwise it would go into Armor I guess..

Engine size tonnage table

engine no eng tons
320 22.5
325 23.5
330 24.5
335 25.5
340 27
345 28.5
350 29.5
355 31.5
360 33
365 34.5
370 36.5
375 38.5
380 41
385 43.5
390 46
395 49
400 52.5

I THINK This is how the system works..

BTW the spread sheet for weapons and engines is at Sarna

Edited by Chuckie, 18 April 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Sprouticus]

Just wanted to point out that there has been ZERO confirmation of any Star League (level 2) tech at open beta launch. The have always limited the weapons listed to level 1 tech.

That will probably change fairly quickly after launch, but dont be shocked if all we have is the basics for the first 2-3 of months. No CASE, no pulse lasers, streak-2's, No ER lasers, No FF, no XL, No Endo, etc.

Now they may just be withholding that from us for now, or it may be an intentional omission because they was a game that is simple to balance at launch.

[EDMW CSN]

Soviet Alex, on 18 April 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Yes, you are right about it being possible to create multiple canon variants in the mech-lab from the base chassis because the hardpoints are compatible. Jenner-7D/F, missile-boat Catapults, & so on. Those mechs don't need to be in the game as separate variants. The "different variants have different hardpoints" explains the Catapult-C1 & -K2. One has missile hardpoints in the arms, the other has energy hardpoints in the arms. So the Catapult-K2 does need to be in the game as a separate variant.

Remember the illustrations of how skills work in Dev-Blog 4? You have to master (in the example) 3 variants of a given chassis to unlock the Elite tiers. So it makes sense to have few variants, distinguished by different hardpoints, and let us create the rest in the Mech-Lab. Take the Hunchback, for example. That bad-boy has a LOT of variants by 3049, but you can't be expected to master all of them. But all of them can be produced using 3 hardpoint configurations, essentially the AC20 Hunchback, the missile Swayback, & the energy Swayback. HBK-4G, -4N &-4SP should do it. There's no need to have the other variants listed in-game, because they can all be Mech-Labbed from one of those base designs.

Now this one makes real sense.

[Corbon Zackery]

Let me make clear you don't want hardpoints.

In fact this is the first thing we should come together as a community and ask to be changed.

Having hardpoints for weapons opens up gimping of a mech.

By gimping I mean the targeting of a single spot or arm because everyone know were its hardpoint are.

It also is going to lead to selective buying of mech do to the hardpoints.

Its also unrealistic for a mech to go into battle all you need is:

Head
CT
RL
LL
Standard motor
Gyro

Using hardpoints on a mech would make repairs a logistical a nightmare. Because a commander couldn't do quick repairs on a mech. Ah the left arm was blown off your mech we can't fix it in time! Sorry, your going to lose those hardpoints for weapons.

All mechs from what I read use a rail system Like the one in a computer tower. You slide in the weapon lock it down and its ready to go. This way a L.laser that was salvaged from a mech arm could be readly put into the LT of a second mech.

We don't want Hardpoints at all. We also want to beable to remove the hands and upper arms of are mechs so we can fit more weapons on.

The Riflemen is a perfect example of a mech with no hands or arms thats a unseen mech,

[Leetskeet]

Corbon Zackery, on 19 April 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Let me make clear you don't want hardpoints.

In fact this is the first thing we should come together as a community and ask to be changed.

Having hardpoints for weapons opens up gimping of a mech.

By gimping I mean the targeting of a single spot or arm because everyone know were its hardpoint are.

It also is going to lead to selective buying of mech do to the hardpoints.

Its also unrealistic for a mech to go into battle all you need is:

Head
CT
RL
LL
Standard motor
Gyro

Using hardpoints on a mech would make repairs a logistical a nightmare. Because a commander couldn't do quick repairs on a mech. Ah the left arm was blown off your mech we can't fix it in time! Sorry, your going to lose those hardpoints for weapons.

All mechs from what I read use a rail system Like the one in a computer tower. You slide in the weapon lock it down and its ready to go. This way a L.laser that was salvaged from a mech arm could be readly put into the LT of a second mech.

We don't want Hardpoints at all. We also want to beable to remove the hands and upper arms of are mechs so we can fit more weapons on.

The Riflemen is a perfect example of a mech with no hands or arms thats a unseen mech,

To reply to the bolded part first, as ridiculous as it is - Yes, that is the entire point. If you run into a Centurion you know its damage is in the right arm. So you can try and rip the arm off. But while you're doing that, you're not shooting something that will actually kill him and you may end up getting cored before you take out the arm. Not only do hardpoints add a level of strategy to fighting specific mechs, but they keep the exact absurd ideas that you have from butchering up what is the most realistic mechwarrior title we've seen so far. Do you think that you would EVER see a Centurion disregard the arm specifically built to house a large weapon, only to somehow carve a hole in a side torso to fit an AC10 in, and leave its big bulky cannon arm empty? Do you really think anyone would EVER do that?

As far as the bottom half of your post - The hardpoints aren't something some commander is dreaming up, you don't seem to understand. The AC/10 goes in the right arm because the right arm is designed to fit and handle it. You want to know what a logistical nightmare is? Trying to fix a non-standard mech that's modified the location of a huge weapon for no purpose other than to move it, or hell, deciding that you were going to modify the mech to fit the arm weapon in torso. The commander isn't saying "OH SORRY COULDN'T REPAIR YOUR ARM, YOU CAN'T USE A WEAPON BECAUSE I MADE UP HARDPOINTS LOL", He's saying "Oh sorry your entire arm that housed your largest weapon got destroyed, looks like this mech is effectively a backup unit until we can repair that arm" Hardpoints are a symptom of logic and reason behind the design and application of mechs and their weapons. Oh, this arm is designed to hold a big ballistic weapon. It's a large ballistic hardpoint. Oh, the center torso has medium lasers. Those slots are designed to hold energy or small ballistic weapons. Energy and ballistic hardpoints. It's not complicated.

And for the record, "customizing" mechs in canon is complete hell. You don't just slide new weapons in. It's a long *** process that's truly hardly worth it, outside of the actual players having fun customizing their mechs. There's a reason everyone except specific story characters are using the basic variants. And that's because doing otherwise is not only a waste of resources, but it effectively makes the mech half impossible to repair. A field commander could probably scrap together parts from different mechs and make a frankenmech if he was desperate and had the engineers and technicians to actually pull it off, but it's going to be a ragtag barely functional mech that would get ripped apart by just about anything it ran into. Corners would have to be cut to get something like that functional. It's like trying to fit a M2 Bradley turret into a M1A1 Abrams and have it actually work. It's damn near impossible.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"Oh really? I can't, can't I?"

Way to miss the point good sir. So you would buy the D and then change all the changes back to what? Non XL?, non- Endo?

You can do what you want, but it may just be cheaper to BUY the Variant.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I have the feeling that we may well see further changes in what they are doing with the MechLab before we get to Beta. After all the posts that have appeared since have shown them what we can do to their beloved designs with what they presently propose. If thats not what they intended then it's back to the drawing board (metaphorically speaking).

[MaddMaxx]

Given the usual mentality of folks when allowed to up size their GUNS, we can expect to see a lot of AC20's (in Ballistic HP's), a lot of PPC's and or LL's (in Energy HP's) and LRM20's (in Missile HP's).

Just because a Bigger Mech may not be Better. A Bigger weapon usually is. lol

[Nik Van Rhijn]

You missed out the AC10, especially when it gets upgraded to LBX status - boats more easily

[StaggerCheck]

This will be the way I'll look at the MechLab, and perhaps it will give some people who are having issues with it a better grasp. I'm not going to go into a ton of detail on my example with various dates of introduction, etc., but you will get the point.

In World War II the Supermarine Spitfire, a British fighter, had a number of different weapon configurations. Originally it had 8x .303in Browning machine guns... four in each wing. When the Germans started to add armour to their bombers the Brits needed something with a heavier punch, so they considered the 20mm Hispano cannon. The cannons were huge compared to the machine guns, and their ammunition requirements were different in size and weight, as well. In order to fit them into the wings the cannons had to be placed on their sides, which caused problems during the stresses of combat with ammunition feed problems and jamming. The ammunition carried was fairly limited… about 60 rounds per cannon. Worse still, if one cannon jammed the other one was so powerful as to alter the course of the fighter if fired alone.

Later, the wing was redesigned and a new variant came out. This one housed one 20mm cannon and two .303in machine guns in each wing, and was considered a much better configuration. The size of the wing was expanded so that the Hispano cannon could be mounted correctly, and the ammunition space was expanded to substantially increase the available cannon ammunition. Later on in the war a 'universal' wing was introduced that could be configured into one of three versions...

-8x .303in machine guns, four in each wing
-4x 20mm cannons, two in each wing
-2x 20mm cannons and 4x .303in machine guns... 1 cannon and 2 machine guns per wing

When it came to fitting weapons in the wings, the two main issues they came up against were weight and space. They basically had two weapon options... a machine gun or a cannon. The cannon weighed twice as much as the machine gun and had different ammunition space requirements, thus modifications were needed to make them fit, despite the available weight being satisfied.

So, in short, by the end of the War the same fighter plane had three different weapon configurations that were based on available weight, space, reliability and necessary redesign of the wings… sort of like an OmniMech. Prior to that, the base plane went through modifications and adjustment to fit different roles, but the modifications still caused issues based on weapons not originally designed for the space being fitted. You can relate those early versions to a base Mech and their variants.

One last point to make would be this… during the War many different planes were produced that filled different roles, time frames and duties. Just on the British side of things we could point to the Hurricane, Typhoon, Mosquito, Halifax and Lancaster. Without a few restrictions in the MechLab, all we’d be stuck with for playing would be the Hawker Hurricane, because all the other planes would be nothing more than a different airframe, and I would find that very boring.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 19 April 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[Corbon Zackery]

If you look at a modern fighter it had universal hardpoints so you can attach a bomb or a missle to a aircraft. This makes it a multi-role aircraft.

Im looking at a Iron wind metal Clint miniture right now and the big cannon on its arm is held in place with one huge bolt. so I can easly change a bolt and have L Laser there. the armor looks like sqaure plates placed over vital areas.

And I am going to blow off your arm before you crit me because It has less armor than the CT and LT and RT.
You can't just pack that arm with all your armor its distributed evenly between The CT, LT, RT, LL, RL, LA, LL.

What your doing by adding hardpoints is throwing the basic battletech rule book out the window. Your not cutting holes in a mech. You have a internal structure then plates of metal are bolted onto the structure thats why some mechs have 5 tons and some have 15 tons of armor. So all I have to do is change out a armor plate and slide in the new weapon.

The other thing is if you look at a battle mech a lot of times it has a pod that can be easly detached so a new weapon pod can be added.

Just like with a air craft your not going to build a mech that only can house a cannon in its arm.

The logic is just flawed.

[William Petersen]

Corbon Zackery, on 19 April 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

What your doing by adding hardpoints is throwing the basic battletech rule book out the window. Your not cutting holes in a mech. You have a internal structure then plates of metal are bolted onto the structure thats why some mechs have 5 tons and some have 15 tons of armor. So all I have to do is change out a armor plate and slide in the new weapon.

Okey, well, since MW:O is on a 1:1 time-ratio with BattleTech (that is, MW:O time/date is Current Earth time/date + 1037 years), let's stick to true BattleTech rules and let you have unfettered customization of non-omni Mechs. But when you send that Mech off to be customized you have to wait months to get it back, and it costs you an absurd amount of C-Bills.

CBTs customization rules were broken. There's a few places I play the TT online, and *none* of them allow customization, because people would "boat" whatever weapons they feel are most "OP", and then it's just a slug fest with no tactics (which it more or less becomes in late Tech-2, but I digress). Hard points sort of fixes a little bit of their problems, slight weapon re-balancing might take care of the rest.

I'm both anticipant and apprehensive to know what they plan to do with Omnis.

Edited by William Petersen, 19 April 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[RedDragon]

Corbon Zackery, on 19 April 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

What your doing by adding hardpoints is throwing the basic battletech rule book out the window. Your not cutting holes in a mech. You have a internal structure then plates of metal are bolted onto the structure thats why some mechs have 5 tons and some have 15 tons of armor. So all I have to do is change out a armor plate and slide in the new weapon.

Nope, adding hardpoints is just the consequent continuation of what the BT rules already said. The scratch-building while only being limited by mass and crits was never meant to be canon for refitting mechs. They were just for fun and to provide the opportunity to mess around with all the equipment the way you like. Battletech lore has only very few instances where pilots field a mech that is no official variant. The rules even say that a mech has to stay balanced and that components can only be swapped with others of the same weight and size. You could even destroy or damage a mech by neglecting those rules (Battletech Master Rules pages 76&77, German Edition)

[TheRulesLawyer]

Sprouticus, on 18 April 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Just wanted to point out that there has been ZERO confirmation of any Star League (level 2) tech at open beta launch. The have always limited the weapons listed to level 1 tech.

That will probably change fairly quickly after launch, but dont be shocked if all we have is the basics for the first 2-3 of months. No CASE, no pulse lasers, streak-2's, No ER lasers, No FF, no XL, No Endo, etc.

Now they may just be withholding that from us for now, or it may be an intentional omission because they was a game that is simple to balance at launch.

FWIW some of the mechs they have been running polls on have "level 2" tech on them. I'd presume that these polls were to help decide on which mechs they should be working on for launch, or immediately after launch. They haven't said one way or another if there will be any advanced tech available yet. We know it is available in the timeline.