74 replies to this topic

[Tuhalu]

eZZip, on 21 April 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Never do this. The same argument can be made for travelling to different 'planets' (maps), waiting between games (time between contracts/enemy action/new operations/etc.), and repairing your mech. It's generally a terrible idea to actually prevent people from playing your game.

In general, I agree, but you are taking a fraction of my suggestion as if it was the whole thing. "Never" take a comment out of context

My suggestion would not prevent people from playing the game. By the time you have sufficient rank in your faction and sufficient skill in that particular mech, you should have enough C-Bills to not only pay for the upgrade to your current mech, but also buy one or two more. At worst, the time delay should encourage a player to try a different mech (although they might just buy a replacement until the upgraded one comes back from the shop!). It should never prevent that player from playing unless they have somehow wasted all their money. In fact, the game should prevent you from sending your only mech away for a factory refit.

My argument was more for making it an "end game" event to have a mech with factory refit parts (as opposed to buying one brand new). Before then, there are some quite heavy refits you can do inside a regular mech bay/lab.

Edited by Tuhalu, 21 April 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[sierra gulf]

Given that the mech lab seems to be set up to simulate field refits, I have to agree that internal structure upgrades should either not be possible, or be significantly restricted. Though I like the idea of unlocking more complex upgrades as you advance in rank for fluff reasons, I think eZZip's point that this could give too great an equipment advantage to experienced players merits attention. Some sort of BV-like balancing system would be a good idea as you could still face tough, upgraded opponents, which I think would be fun, but still have team balance.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I think with the emphasis seeming to be placed on gaining chassis XP, it is logical that internal structure upgrades should not be possible as that would constitute buying a new chassis.

In reference to That Guy's and Prosperity Park's comments about having different heat sinks external to the engine than those that are internal to it, normally (in TT construction rules at least) all of a mechs heat sinks have to be of the same type. I guess it is supposed to be some sort of integrated heat exchange system. The exception are the Freezers that were essentially a knock-off of Star League era double heat sinks that became available around the War of 3039 and are still in use in 3049 so could show up in the game. Personally I think it would be a good idea to have these. Mass production of double heat sinks was supposed to be delayed in most factions until after the Clan Invasion so freezers would be a good way to add balance, especially if getting double heat sinks requires getting a new engine as it does in TT rules.

[Dirk Le Daring]

Aegis Kleais™, on 21 April 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Did anyone else get the feeling from the latest Q&A that any Mech (as long as you have the funding) will be able to utilize Endo-Steel (vs. Standard), XL Fusion (vs. Fusion) and Double Heatsinks (vs. Single)?

If not, weren't these features chassis-dependent? Like that only certain chassis were able to utilize them?

I think this is one of those aspects of a TT game that does not translate well into a computer game. Might be too much to make the chassis too specific, or just unachievable. Some things are going to be lost in translation. Just how I see it.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Endo Steel requires a complete redesigning of the 'mech's internal structure. If you want it, have fun buying another 'mech variant that has it, because you can't just rip out a 'mech's internal structure and put a new one in.

Oh, you want to put double-heatsinks in your 'mech instead of singles? Have fun buying another fusion engine too, because yours isn't designed to use doubles.

In my opinion, the XL Engine should be the only thing that can be replaced without having to also replace anything else at the same time. Yeah, it takes up more space, but it doesn't mess with the internal structure of the 'mech, just the internal space.

In summary, I believe that:
- Internal Structure cannot be changed, higher tech variants come equipped with Endo Steel.
- Double-heatsinks can only be put into engines that are designed for them, thus you need a more expensive engine (while having the same rating) to use them.
- Engines can be freely swapped as they are the only internal that doesn't mess around with other internals.

Your guys' thoughts?

[Kreisel]

Honestly I think a lot of you are way over doing the 'trying to make it realistic' aspect at the cost of the 'make the game playable' aspect.

The Devs have been pretty consistent on trying to keep the game close as they can to the battletech rules, so if the rules don't outright say, you can't slap an XL engine in that, why would they suddenly turn around and do so? (baring of course playtests showing it creats problems.)

Building Mechs was about a balancing act, all these parts your talking about merely existed to give players more flexibility in HOW they did that balancing act, sure they save weight, in some cases a lot of weight, but at the cost of something, critical space, lots of critical space if you try to stack them and critical space is a limited resource. If I give up the space for it, and it will fit into chassis I'm working with then why shouldn't I be allowed to us it? The Mechs that can't use these things will be the ones where you just can't spare the space for it because you need it for something else. Maybe it's better most the time, but their are going to be instances where it's just not worth giving up those 8 critical slots you need for a Gauss Rifle to gain weight when you've got no space left to put anything else in the Mech.

From everything the Devs have said I fully expect all of these things to be parts you buy and you slot into the chassis of your mech. if you can fit it in the space and weight of the frame, then you can do it. Yes, that includes endosteel, simply put it's the most practice (and in my thoughts balanced) way to implement it into the game. Does endosteel being a part you can just take in and out of your different mechs in the lab not make sense with the fiction, sure it doesn't but it's a video game and for practicality sake we tend ignore a great deal in favor of just getting into the fun of it. Besides, at it's most basic level this is how it works when you build a mech for the tabletop, you plug all of these things in as parts that have to be fit someone in the available space/weight of the mech your building.

Edited by Kreisel, 21 April 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[eZZip]

Tuhalu, on 21 April 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

In general, I agree, but you are taking a fraction of my suggestion as if it was the whole thing. "Never" take a comment out of context

And what makes this situation different? Moving long distances requires time, so why not force players to wait weeks between games?

[Kartr]

eZZip, on 21 April 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

And what makes this situation different? Moving long distances requires time, so why not force players to wait weeks between games?

Because you want them to play as much as possible. However using endosteel can give you a huge advantage because it allows you to pack more tonnage on. That kind of power needs to have a gate, the gate definitely needs to be in part cost (C-Bills not R-Bills) and possibly time as well.

[Oswin Aurelius]

eZZip, on 21 April 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

And what makes this situation different? Moving long distances requires time, so why not force players to wait weeks between games?

Because then no one would play. A real (fictitious) MechWarrior would probably only see battle every few days, weeks, or even months. I want to play this game every day, and if anyone wants week-long downtimes between matches, you can go play one of those crappy Facebook games.

"Forcing" players to do something that has no impact on gameplay is bad for the game itself.

[Rejarial Galatan]

DV^McKenna, on 21 April 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Irrelevant at best, im not too worried at tech level 1 none of this is available.

Once Tech level 2 is implemented there needs to be some restrictions placed to keep things in line, else every chassis will start to become PPC/Guass monsters irrespective of the chassis base config.

Well, considering we may very well start in mechs with the PPC/Gauss weapons, those monsters may be on the field day 1. I for one, if they give us a certain amount of C-Bills at start, and a free mech in one of the weight classes, may very well end up with a PPC Gauss monster on Day 1.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Rejarial Galatan, on 21 April 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Well, considering we may very well start in mechs with the PPC/Gauss weapons, those monsters may be on the field day 1. I for one, if they give us a certain amount of C-Bills at start, and a free mech in one of the weight classes, may very well end up with a PPC Gauss monster on Day 1.

I'm going to make it my mission to kill anything that mounts only PPC and/or Gauss. Beware, douchebags, beware.

[Iovenn Clay]

I think we have to face that after all it is a computer game we are talking about. There will be no long travels and no long waiting for my Mech to come out of the shop. I already wrote somewhere else imagine you went on a two week trip with your whole company just to realize that there is no one on the other side of the field. Of course in RP terms that is a easy win but here you want the glory of battle.

Returning to upgrades or features like EndoSteel or XL-Engines I think the most important fact is that the negative effects are shown correctly. Like somebody already said the XL has to destroy the Mech when the Left or right torso gets destroyed. And Double heat sinks take away a lot of space. So my loadout has to shrink.
As long as this is transfered into the game I am pretty sure every change will be allowed with your Mech.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Oswin Aurelius, on 21 April 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

I'm going to make it my mission to kill anything that mounts only PPC and/or Gauss. Beware, douchebags, beware.

So you're calling all Awesome pilots names? I'm sure that if the devs include a mech they intend people to pilot it. If you're so precious maybe you need to find another game that suits you better rather than gratuitously insulting people by calling them names?

[Scrawny Cowboy]

Very intriguing topic, hope these suggestions are read by the Dev's.

[Gigaton]

Oswin Aurelius, on 21 April 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

I'm going to make it my mission to kill anything that mounts only PPC and/or Gauss. Beware, douchebags, beware.

Since my tentative builds for lostech Gauss Dragons have GR with 2 tons of ammo, ER PPC and either MLAS or (ER)LLAS depending on the speed I go for, does this mean I'm safe if I use either build? I mean, neither has only Gauss and PPC.

Edited by Gigaton, 22 April 2012 - 03:01 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Oswin Aurelius, on 21 April 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Endo Steel requires a complete redesigning of the 'mech's internal structure. If you want it, have fun buying another 'mech variant that has it, because you can't just rip out a 'mech's internal structure and put a new one in.

Oh, you want to put double-heatsinks in your 'mech instead of singles? Have fun buying another fusion engine too, because yours isn't designed to use doubles.

In my opinion, the XL Engine should be the only thing that can be replaced without having to also replace anything else at the same time. Yeah, it takes up more space, but it doesn't mess with the internal structure of the 'mech, just the internal space.

In summary, I believe that:
- Internal Structure cannot be changed, higher tech variants come equipped with Endo Steel.
- Double-heatsinks can only be put into engines that are designed for them, thus you need a more expensive engine (while having the same rating) to use them.
- Engines can be freely swapped as they are the only internal that doesn't mess around with other internals.

Your guys' thoughts?

I like it. Endo-Steel on SOME variants. (if any)

[Grinner]

The problem I have with Endo Steel available on any 'mech is that it makes ferro fibrous armor obsolete. Both occupy 14 critical spaces but Endo saves more tonnage. If any 'mech can mount either, why would any 'mech ever mount ferro? Granted you might see a few light'mechs that mount both because tonnage is at such a premium for them, but most mechs will have one or the other, and if either is available, Endo is the clearly better choice. The advantage of ferro should be that you can mount it on any chassis. Endo should give that extra edge to those chassis or variants that come equipped with it, at the expense of reduced critical space for weaponry, heat sinks, and equipment. I think this would make more sense canonically, be more balanced, and would give a reason for players to actually use ferro.

[Gigaton]

Grinner, on 22 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Granted you might see a few light'mechs that mount both because tonnage is at such a premium for them, but most mechs will have one or the other, and if either is available, Endo is the clearly better choice.

Actually, pretty much every single of my lostech Dragon builds I have been planning for MW:O has both ferro and endo. Some have XL engine on top of both (this is assuming 3+4 space used on arm actuators, as per the concept artwork).

[Stripes]

If its costly (same or more then buying brand new 'mech of same type) and, with high-tech upgrades, takes a lot of real time - it will be perfect for me.
MechLab was one of the reasons which got me in MW firstly and then in BT - but with "O" letter in game genre where must be balance. Especially, with annonced MechLab, when we can do more when in MW4 - which speaks for it self already.

[guardiandashi]

regarding endosteel "upgrades" under the current rules set for "upgrades" endosteel upgrades, and changing engine TYPE not rating is a factory refit that requires access to a factory capable of building the TYPE of unit not specific model.

what this means is if I want to change a dragon from using a 300std engine to a 360 xl (one of the actual dragon upgrades) I don;t need to be at the luthian armor works factory that makes dragons I just need to be at a facility that makes battlemechs.

in previous rules sets (mercenarys handbook 3055) you could order a "refit kit" that would have all the instructions and parts to upgrade ANYTHING you wanted you just had to pay for it, and there was a markup for the more elaborate refit kits. a kit that replaced weapons and or heatsinks for example might have been 5% over cost, (still need labor) a refit kit that was what is now considered maintance level (intermediate refit) was like 25% over cost and the "anything goes refit" was 40% over cost of the parts

in the new rules you have field, essentually weapons, electronics, and add additional armor are valid, maintenance changing heat sink TYPE, adding or removing heat sinks, and changing engine SIZE but not type

Factory changing anything else that is not allowed under a lesser refit.

regarding the "engine destroyed due to side torso distruction" issue in this issue an engine is not actually destroyed upon recieving 3 crits it is just MISSION KILLED what that means is you blow off the side torso of a newtech marauder (with the xl engine) you did not just loose a 12 million cbill engine, you just lost enough shielding etc that the safties immediately kick in and scram thereactor and lock it down/off until it is repaired enough to get it back to no more than 2 crits worth of damage done to it.

[Jonas]

Look even in ROLE WARFARE, its an arms race. So you want to be a scout for the lance then great, your going to be spending the C-bills to have the best scout there is. Now weather that's buying a new mech or modding the old one out remains to be seen or done.

I will say this replacing armor for a different kind of armor would be simple enough and that goes for the engine as well. Also switching out heat sinks would be easy to, remember at least in the TT rules every mech has 10 heat sinks stock. Which in most cases fit inside the engine so switching over to double heat sinks not a bad idea even if the engine can only fit 8 in it and the other to have to take up Critical space the 20 points of heat that goes away vers. 10 good trade in my book.

Now the chassis I do think should cost more to switch out but then again I have seen people build frames for there new hot rod out of different metals and transfer the old body to it with ease. I remember in one of the TRO/rule books they made it sound like the chassis was built like bones so I could see just ordering a new hip bone or what have you out of endo steal and in stalling it would it take time yes is it worth it, depends on what you are trying to do with your mech.

Anyway that is my 2 cents on this I just can't wait to give the lab a try and see what can and cannot be done.