805 replies to this topic

[Volthorne]

I think Chris (wiiogre) is just bloody fed up with every slamming on our (formerly named NWH, insert new name here) group, and maybe or maybe not the other large canon unit groups too. Everyone on the forum should be sighing with tiredness at every new post in this topic that slams one group or another for whatever reason.

EDIT: Looks like he's gone a bit loopy. Must be all the heat from the firepit where (formerly GDL) and (formerly 1RR) are attempting to roast effigies of Bryan. Please stand by while we deploy the medics.

To think this all started by one person posting "What the hell is up with these 8 different Clan Wolfs, and why is every clan "Khan" challenging every other clan for blood-names, blah blah blah". I guess that's all it takes for a bunch of people to bandwagon and then wildly speculate enough to catch the eye of the Devs.

Edited by Volthorne, 05 May 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[wwiiogre]

not at all Volthorne, just singing a fun song, laughing and giggling. Does anyone remember the banana splits?

chris

[Marowi]

For the record, from what I see in this thread, I don't think anyone has been "slamming" on your group save for one or two sniping comments from people not really invested in this discussion. I think it's time for a mod to step in here, I have more questions I'd like to discuss, but I'm not going to discuss them in a hostile environment--I really did want to hear wwiiogre's grievance out, because I was a bit confused, but now I don't think that's going to happen.

Edited by Marowi, 05 May 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[Togg Bott]

wolf74, on 04 May 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Can We(mercs/house/Clan units) have list of Name in a Searchable PDF format that are Not allowed. This way we can go through it and come up with a New name so we can stay within the rules on the name.


(edited spelling)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mercenaries

http://www.sarna.net...mercenary_units

these are the merc unit names listed on sarna, for those wanting to change their unit names, or those wanting to avoid the chance of stepping on a established name, these list ought to give you a good guide.

hope this is helpful as a 39 page thead, i hereby rename this a THREADNOUGHT

[wolf74]

Togg Bott, on 05 May 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mercenaries

http://www.sarna.net...mercenary_units

these are the merc unit names listed on sarna, for those wanting to change their unit names, or those wanting to avoid the chance of stepping on a established name, these list ought to give you a good guide.

hope this is helpful as a 39 page thead, i hereby rename this a THREADNOUGHT

TY for the info. +1 to you

[Solis Obscuri]

Volthorne, on 05 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

To think this all started by one person posting "What the hell is up with these 8 different Clan Wolfs, and why is every clan "Khan" challenging every other clan for blood-names, blah blah blah". I guess that's all it takes for a bunch of people to bandwagon and then wildly speculate enough to catch the eye of the Devs.

I don't think PGI's position on the matter started there, however, I think it may have spurred them to issue further clarification

And I think this inclusion vs. exclusion debate is a pretty good example of why they've taken the stance, IMO. Better to have a little upset now than to have an ongoing GM moderation issue for the lifespan of the game about who is or isn't allowed to join or command a canon mercenary unit and so forth. I think it's pretty cool that PGI is putting in a quite a bit of faction management for the merc corps right from the start, and having an opportunity to start a small merc command from the ground up and establish your own unique unit character and legacy is something we haven't had in any previous MW online experience.

[soulfire]

Well I have to say after wading through the comments of this thread, I see in the past so many pages its gotten off the path of the original concept. Instead of Claiming Clan and IS Units its become, because of a few individuals who are not mercs interesting enough; a poke the merc forum. So I will try to get us back on the subject , because I am such a nice guy.
.....Can you clam an IS unit..no is my bet. You will join the game you tell the game which house you will fight for, the game then gives you the rank of rookie dirt scum and places you in a specific area in a unit.. You will grind and grind earning c-bills and honor points. when you have so many honor points you can turn them into for a promotion to rookie.On you grind on you earn your points adn up the ladder you go. Sooner or later you get to have your own lance. Pretty darn exciting.More grinding you get to be incharge or 3 or 4 lances depending.If you play your cards right you will be given the opertunaty to join an "elite" unit of the house. better mechs more money so forth. Sooner or later you will top out and that will be it.
.....Clan similar to IS except not all clans came to IS land to fight. I wonder how they will do that. I dought that there will be all that fighting for rank type stuff as lil clanners would be fighting each other more than IS. Have my doughts about blood names also but maybe they will use it. In either clan or IS I do not think they will allow you and two others buddies create a unit.What if a lowly player joins hoping to be head of that same unit it just wouldnt be fair.

so there we go back on topic.....

Edited by soulfire, 06 May 2012 - 12:23 AM.

[soulfire]

oh yea before I forget

[Thorn Hallis]

Listless Nomad, on 05 May 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Why not just make "mercenary" a faction and have all the merc units be joinable units exactly the same way houses are set up. That way - there would be basically two divisions. Player run and npc. That everyone is truly equal - and mercs aren't left out in the cold. Additionally, you wouldn't need each big merc unit to be a separate faction. Granted it would need work but it's just a suggestion.

That might indeed work, though it could lead to a dangerous shift in "manpower" towards the Lyran Commenwealth and Federated Suns, as the four most popular mercenary units are under contract by both realms.

[Tyr Gunn]

soulfire, on 06 May 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

Well I have to say after wading through the comments of this thread, I see in the past so many pages its gotten off the path of the original concept. Instead of Claiming Clan and IS Units its become, because of a few individuals who are not mercs interesting enough; a poke the merc forum. So I will try to get us back on the subject , because I am such a nice guy.
.....Can you clam an IS unit..no is my bet. You will join the game you tell the game which house you will fight for, the game then gives you the rank of rookie dirt scum and places you in a specific area in a unit.. You will grind and grind earning c-bills and honor points. when you have so many honor points you can turn them into for a promotion to rookie.On you grind on you earn your points adn up the ladder you go. Sooner or later you get to have your own lance. Pretty darn exciting.More grinding you get to be incharge or 3 or 4 lances depending.If you play your cards right you will be given the opertunaty to join an "elite" unit of the house. better mechs more money so forth. Sooner or later you will top out and that will be it.
.....Clan similar to IS except not all clans came to IS land to fight. I wonder how they will do that. I dought that there will be all that fighting for rank type stuff as lil clanners would be fighting each other more than IS. Have my doughts about blood names also but maybe they will use it. In either clan or IS I do not think they will allow you and two others buddies create a unit.What if a lowly player joins hoping to be head of that same unit it just wouldnt be fair.

so there we go back on topic.....

Who are you, and what have you done to the 38 other pages in this thread? Obviously reading them wasn't on your trolling agenda.

[Nighthound]

I tried to stay away ... I really did ... but I can't.

1. Most Discussions are about Mercenary Units. That's fine, it's what started all this. But you Guys seem to miss the bigger Picture. The Devs (at least to my knowledge) never specified Mercs, they said "Canon Units". So this Discussion is not only about the big Merc Companies, it's not even about about Merc Units in general, it's about ALL Canon Units.

2. This exclusive/inclusive stuff is kinda silly (IMHO), because ALL Units are exclusive. Factions maybe not be exclusive but we are not talking about Factions (Factions = Houses and/or Clans. WD, ELH, NWH, KH, GDL, etc. are not Factions they are Units). The Devs said they could do something like requiring a specific amount of Loyalty Points to join a prestigeous Unit .... how is that not exclusive? In the strictest sense I would say that a Unit, take the Genyosha (haven't used that jet in my explanations) for instance, has a specific size, in this case 2 regiments. This would mean that only a specific number of Players could be in this Unit at one time, 72 in case of the Genyosha, maybe 4 or 8 more so make it a round 80 ..... what if it is full? is that not exclusive? What if there are Players who don't play anymore? Are they auto-kicked from the Unit? what if one Player only was on Vacation for 2 weeks?
It was stated that ANY kind of restriction implied exclusiveness ..... well if I join Marik I won't get to play in the Death Commandos, thats a restriction right there. So again ALL Units are exclusive! And this discussion is mood.

3. This is one of the Points that should be discussed. Player Control. How do we want to handle control over a Unit by one or more players?
That's a good question right there .... I think (it is only my opinion not something that has to be done this way) no Player should be in control of any kind of Canon Unit. PERIOD! If you have to make a cut somewhere make it where it's fair, all or nothing, so no Canon Units for Players. The Danger is see and why I am against this is simple, some, if not most, of those Units are involved in the story to come, and if you don't want to change the story then you can't allow anyone but Staff to control these Units.

4. Joinability of Conon Units. Another Point to be discussed. How (if at all) do we want to handle the posibility of Players being able to join a Canon Unit?
Again, my opinion is exactly the same as for controling of the same and for much of the same reasons. No Players in Canon Units. The Danger I see here is the knowledge of the timeline. I know that the Kell Hound will be one of the first Units to encounter the Clans. There is just no fair way for all/most/enough Players to enjoy (getting your butt handed to you on a silver platter .... yay!) this experience. Think about it! Let's say I join Rasalhague because I know they will bear the brunt of the Invasion and so they will see to most Action, or Kurita or Steiner, they will see plenty of Clan Action in the years to come .... how is that fair to Liao, Marik and Davion Players? They get to play against the Clans only after the Inner Sphere joined forces against them. .... again not fair at all. Kurita, Rasalhague, and Steiner have to fight their collective ***** of and they get to develop new Tech and build up their Forces so they only fight after it's more balanced. .... Operation Bulldog. Mostly the Big Merc Units are allowed/invited to take the fight back to the Clans. .... Again not fair. .... We all hope, but we can't know if this Game will even exsist till that Date.

5. Naming of Units. This is what started all the outrage, but let's face it ... it's all just Words. What will be the Naming Conventions in MW:O? The statement of Devs so far have been a little bit on the vague side of things concerning Naming Conventions.
Again. Have a List of ALL Canon Units and make them off-Limits. It seems to me that will be the way the Devs are going and again it should and all likelyhood will be, all or nothing, scratch the whole List. But Stop there. I think I have stated often enogh how and why I think so .... so moving on, waiting for the Devs to clarify.

6. Gameplay. The Devs told us a little about Gameplay. But how exactly will gameplay work aside from facing each other in Mechs?
As I understood it (and it's a distinct possibility that I got it wrong) House Players will play against Players from other Houses and try to shift those Borders a little, Merc Units will fight each other for Planets and Ressources in the Periphery and Lone Wolves get to jump in where there is Space. But nothing was said about House Players beeing able to form Units of their own. I implied this, it seemed I was wrong, I'm not sure if this thread should cover that, as it is about Units, but more about Gameplay.

Conclusion : Stop trying to throw everything into one Pot and make a Stew out of it, it won't work and it definately won't taste good. Keep within one Point and discuss it, maybe expand into other Points but don't mash it all together.

PS.: Maybe Point 7. Timeline. Will the Timeline be Canon or not? Nothing has been said about this so far. The restrictions about Canon Units imply keeping with the Timeline but maybe the Devs want to tell their own story and need the Units for this. Nothing to do with this topic in general but it could be an explanation why they want to restrict access to Canon Units, because if they neither wanted to keep the Timeline nor tell a Story of their own those restrictions wouldn't be necessary (at least in my Opinon).

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Non canon merc unit names can be claimed now in the merc thread and will carry over into the game we are told. These units will be as exclusive (or inclusive) as the people in them wish.
Just thought I'd put this in for people to remember. As for the rest - I feel sorry for those who have invested so much in their units over the years but would suggest that a unit is more the people than the name.

[empath]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Doesn't matter, ceremonial or not, it's /not/ inclusive. The standards might be low, they might be high, I don't know. I just know that if the standard is other than download the client and log into the game then unless it's a private organization that should be all that's necessary. Any IP organization needs to be either that inclusive (Aka not player ran at all) or not available otherwise it's not fair.

Again: I was using Chuckie as an example, I could really care less about the particulars (No offense to you, the Highlanders, or Chuckie). It just proved my point.

By your own arguement, PGI is making MechWarrior Online exclusive, too.

[Morashtak]

Nighthound, on 06 May 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

2. This exclusive/inclusive stuff is kinda silly (IMHO), because ALL Units are exclusive.
3. ...no Player should be in control of any kind of Canon Unit.
4. No Players in Canon Units.
5. Again. Have a List of ALL Canon Units and make them off-Limits.
6. But nothing was said about House Players being able to form Units of their own.
7. Will the Timeline be Canon or not?

Why not another page...?

1. No argument with you there so not quoted
2. Technically word-wise you are correct. RL tank units exclude the handicapped from driving tanks. But there is little reason to put an arbitrary member cap on a Canon unit that is dev controlled.
3. Agreed. See "Climbing the Ranks" in Suggestions for more thoughts on this.
4. This point nullifies your earlier point. More of my thoughts on this in "CtR".
5. Lists are linked to on page #760 , post #744.
6. From Dev Blog 1, Community Warfare; "Ranks are created within a Merc Corp by the Merc Corp leader. The naming of the ranks is entirely up to the Merc Corp leader who can assign Merc Corp level permissions to each rank." - Can't make your own ranks without making your own unit.
7. Inferred in several Dev blogs and interviews.

[Nighthound]

Morashtak, on 06 May 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Why not another page...?

1. No argument with you there so not quoted
2. Technically word-wise you are correct. RL tank units exclude the handicapped from driving tanks. But there is little reason to put an arbitrary member cap on a Canon unit that is dev controlled.
3. Agreed. See "Climbing the Ranks" in Suggestions for more thoughts on this.
4. This point nullifies your earlier point. More of my thoughts on this in "CtR".
5. Lists are linked to on page #760 , post #744.
6. From Dev Blog 1, Community Warfare; "Ranks are created within a Merc Corp by the Merc Corp leader. The naming of the ranks is entirely up to the Merc Corp leader who can assign Merc Corp level permissions to each rank." - Can't make your own ranks without making your own unit.
7. Inferred in several Dev blogs and interviews.

1. Thanks
2. It's not only about the Member Cap. The fact that you would need a specific amount auf Points is restrictive therefore exclusive. But it doesn't matter anyway because this restrictive business is just a reason given why someone does not want players in control of Merc Units, and I just wanted to show that there is a bit of unsound logic in that specific reasoning.
3. Thanks again
4. Not nullified, or only nullified if 4 is true. We are discussing, therefore if 4 is not decided then 3 is a valid question.
5. Those are just the Mercenaries and far of the 6965 Mark the Devs have stated. (hmmm.... Post #760 seems to be missing and #744 is from wiiogre about exclusive/inclusive ... at least in this thread ... but the one I remember only linked to Sarna.net and Mercenaries)
6. I was talking about House Players not Merc Players, that Merc players get to form Units was quite clear.
7. Inferred does not mean it is that way. It is most likely but assumptions are what got us into this discussion in the first place.

[maxoconnor]

At the risk of being impolitic here, I think this whole pointless argument over exclusive and inclusive is a product of the participation award generation.

I showed up so I want my trophy, no one can tell me no, you are being hateful and mean for excluding me. Why can't I be part of the death commando's and play with the other Davion pilots? I want everything with no restrictions because if you restrict me you are being exclusive and that isn't fair.

BTW I think I'm in love with Nighthound in a purely platonic Bromance kinda way.
Dude you rock. LOL

[Christopher Dayson]

maxoconnor, on 06 May 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

At the risk of being impolitic here, I think this whole pointless argument over exclusive and inclusive is a product of the participation award generation.

I showed up so I want my trophy, no one can tell me no, you are being hateful and mean for excluding me. Why can't I be part of the death commando's and play with the other Davion pilots? I want everything with no restrictions because if you restrict me you are being exclusive and that isn't fair.

BTW I think I'm in love with Nighthound in a purely platonic Bromance kinda way.
Dude you rock. LOL

No. It has nothing to do with participation award ceremony, it has to do with one simple thing:

If /ANYONE/ wants to join an IP Faction/Unit/Mercenary Outfit they should /ALL/ have the same ease in doing so. Not being told 'No' for /any/ reason!

It doesn't mean they succeed, and get trophies or automatically get the awesomesauce, it just means they get to play as their chosen faction and nobody outside the MAKERS OF THE GAME can tell them No.

That's it. That's the long and the short of it. No player has the right to restrict or endanger the right of another player to enjoy the game as it's been designed. As soon as you have an outside organization influence who can and who cannot play as what's fun to them then THAT is WRONG.

I am NOT against ANY mercenary group. I am against the idea that /anyone/ (not the devs) can tell /anyone/ 'No you cannot play that, we called it first!' or whatever unless it is that groups creation!

The Northwind Highlanders are not created by wwiogre or Vorth or any of the others, they are a book IP, and thus should be equally allowed, or disallowed, to any and /all/. This is fair.

I'm not personally attacking anyone, if it sounds like I have, then that's because my words might be striking a touch closer to home.

As soon as those at northwindhighlanders.net have a non-IP related name that doesn't represent an in game faction or a part of that faction they can be as exclusive or inclusive as they want and I won't care one iota. I stand behind this decision the dev's have made, and I will continue to support that decision and promote why it is the right one so that it is /not/ drowned out by flames and whining.

[Dihm]

With regards to #6, people within the Factions CANNOT create Units within the Factions. That is the purpose of the Mercenary Units. It has been said that they will look for a way, after launch, to enable Faction players to create player-run units, but it won't be any time soon.

This is why you see groups like the 1st Robinson Rangers and the 1st Blackburn Raiders forming as "Faction" units, but in reality (game terms) they are just going to be Mercenary units which take contracts only with their Faction. That is exactly what we were going to do when we originally formed as the 3rd Drakons, but we saw trouble coming with using that name and switched over to being "pure" Mercs, though we do plan on being pretty exclusive to the FRR with our contracts.

Edited by Dihm, 06 May 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Marowi]

A clarification regarding the exclusivity issue, because a lot of people seem to be missing the mark: the point is not that exclusivity is "bad", in and of itself, the point is that exclusivity is bad when wielded by other players and not PGI in the context of canon factions or units.

Yes, the House units are technically "exclusive" by some definition, but that exclusivity is wielded by PGI and not other players: that's okay. I think that addresses Nighthound's point #2.

Provided that players will not be able to create mercenary companies using canon faction or unit names, they will therefore not be able to exclude on this basis. I think we all agree on this point. I think we also agree that this implies that circumvention is obviously also out.

The original grievance, as far as I understand it, was that if you wanted to play a major canonical mercenary faction, you couldn't because you couldn't create a mercenary unit with that name or join a non-player controlled faction of the same name. The game basically didn't provide any coverage. Policy question: to what extent should the game provide coverage of the full spectrum of canonical factions and units?

I understand that this is a complicated issue with many facets, but in order to prevent further misunderstandings in which people become incensed, I suggest that we all pay special attention to precision.

Edited by Marowi, 06 May 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Tyr Gunn]

Christopher Dayson, on 06 May 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

'I stand behind this decision the dev's have made, and I will continue to support that decision and promote why it is the right one so that it is /not/ drowned out by flames and whining.

Good for you, I'd love to continue making my points about how I feel this entire situation has been mismanaged, but a few days ago I've was asked personally by a mod to keep NWH out of this while the flaming and "whining" continues. It was all under a socially engineered ploy that called us "contributors to the thread", but getting us to back off only seems to have encouraged the accusations that we're whining or crying about something. People don't even seem to read out posts, they just read the tone of them and decide we're babies.

It infuriates that one side of this argument gets to be made without mods pressuring them back off. Well, I'm sick of that. I'm sick of this thread. And I'm sick of being called a crybaby with no supporting evidence. We voiced our goddammed opinions. If that makes me a crybaby, it makes everyone ELSE sycophantic, tool-gobbling bandwagon-jumpers blindly defending the Devs or repeating previous attacks.

So yeah. I don't think I'm not gonna shut the f up anymore. Might as well ban me now, Mason.