49 replies to this topic

[Belisarius1]

If missiles could lock onto a tag that lit up midway through their flight, they might be okay. Your fire support would just need to throw missiles in the vague direction of opfor a little before the scout exposed. All other things being equal, though, that's a lot of coordination for no real gain. Perhaps if the narc had like 600m range and tag could be used from 1km.

The main use I see for tag is in allowing missiles to be fired straight off without needing to wait for lock, if you fire and then guide them home. For as light as tags are, that could be worth it on something that wanted to keep its exposure down.

Edited by Belisarius†, 26 April 2012 - 03:44 AM.

[Gigaton]

Belisarius†, on 26 April 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

Perhaps if the narc had like 600m range and tag could be used from 1km.

I have a feeling we won't be seeing MW4 and MWLL style ranges like that at all. In the Raven fluff insert Awesome's PPCs were described as being effective at over 500m. The TT range for them is 540m (Garth uprepped the post where I pointed that out, but it may simply be him saying that the ranges in fluff insert were based on TT ranges, not on MW:O ranges).

But NARC does have less range in TT than TAG, and TAG is actually has pretty decent range at 450m (same as AC/10 and large laser). I personally doubt we'll get the situation where a 'mech with TAG could direct fire while staying outside range of everything except select long range weapons. TAG may also suffer less from enemy ECM, for obvious advantage.

I also wonder if NARCs will be guided.

Edited by Gigaton, 26 April 2012 - 04:33 AM.

[ManDaisy]

Table top wise all (basic) narc does is add to the number of missiles hit on a missile hit table.

I personally feel that narc should retain the auto lock translation that previous mechwarrior games have given it, but feel it should limited in transmitting to a certain max range. This is to keep narc abuse to a minimum but also still maintain its role and purpose.

How should narc removal be handled?

Do incomming missiles have the potential to blow the narc becon that called them up? Will mechs be able to scrap them off like barnicles? Will mechs be able to blast them off?

How often will a target have to be re-narced?

Do narcs perform like one time auto-locks?

Edited by ManDaisy, 26 April 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[Mason Grimm]

Yes
No
Yes
Every 30 seconds
Not that I am aware of.

[Hayashi]

Depends on base missile precision, which we don't know yet. If base precision is crud, NARCs could simply be a way to help all friendly missiles (which must attain target lock their own way) concentrate their firepower on the location, as opposed to spread the damage around. I personally felt autolock to be a little bit overpowered, but it seems from the previous dev posts that that's the most likely route. A one-time autolock sounds like a good compromise.

As for NARC removal, being able to scrape them would involve a certain melee element. I'd rather that damage to the beacon via the very missiles it calls deactivates it.

[RedHairDave]

or friendly lasers to shoot them off with great skill.

also nothing wrong with taking them off if you have hands and can grab it, so it depends on if your mech can reach, or if a friends mech can reach. but during the pull off, you would both need to stop likely and be vulnerable while trying to get it off.

[Hayashi]

It's time!

*Threadmerge*

[Kay Wolf]

Narc should give a 20% better chance for missiles to hit, but only if the missile targeting, as Hayashi brought up, is moderate. If it's weak, the percentage bonus should be higher, and if too strong, adjusted accordingly. Narc's not been done properly, yet, I feel, and I would like to see it done properly, especially with regards to allowing others to lock on better with their LRMs, not an auto-lock for all missile 'Mechs of type. Oh, and being able to choose the type of missiles the Narc Beacon homes in on, whether LRM or SRM, and non-special munitions.

[ManDaisy]

Heres my interpretation,

1) Narc( one time auto lock)
2) No retimer (Stays on as long as its not blown up)
3) Can be blown up by called missiles, enemy weapons fire of any kind, friendly weapons fire of any kind. (So you can waste a narc if you land one and then shoot it off with your other weapons or an ally stupidly shoots it off.)
4) Has a transmission radius, just off the wall slightly less then half the normal missile lock on range. This is so narcs cant call missiles from across the map.

5) ECM should be able to disrupt narc because it is a continuous electronic transmission like c3.

Edited by ManDaisy, 26 April 2012 - 06:54 AM.

[Havoc2]

IMO NARC should last for X # of minutes.

Call it a finite charge that arms when the NARC strikes a target and the charge expires due to time or damage.

They shouldn't last indefinitely. Destroyed by incoming damage to that location, or a limited power source resulting in a short beacon life would make sense.

[MaddMaxx]

In the Fluff, the Pilot never saw the Raven, just radar flashes. With a max. range of 270m, how the hell did the Raven get a Beacon on said enemy mech with out being visible, for at least a short period of time...?

They are dumb fire right?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 26 April 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[Sprouticus]

MaddMaxx, on 26 April 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

In the Fluff, the Pilot never saw the Raven, just radar flashes. With a max. range of 270m, how the hell did the Raven get a Beacon on said enemy mech with out being visible, for at least a short period of time...?

They are dumb fire right?

The Quesiton of how ECM will work is interesting. We shall see.

As for them being dumbfire, there is no reason they have to be, thats just how it was before. Same with SRM's.

[Ramien]

MaddMaxx, on 26 April 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

In the Fluff, the Pilot never saw the Raven, just radar flashes. With a max. range of 270m, how the hell did the Raven get a Beacon on said enemy mech with out being visible, for at least a short period of time...?

They are dumb fire right?

Ravens have active ECM which was likely blocking detection. That and McDoomy wasn't the brightest pilot on the planet.

[Sprouticus]

The limited range of Narc is going to be a big limitation for its usage by scouts. Especially if you can be one shot (which I support by the way)
. Even with a limited electronics and more visually focused setup, getting that close is tantamount to a deathwish in anything under 45 tons.

Tag is not much better, although in an urbad or hilly environment you might be able to do it.

I would prefer NARC:
1) be guided/lockable OR have a longer range
2) Limit notification to the NARC'd mech
3) focus missile fire on a location rather than spreading it.
4) I am ok with limited duration (20-30 sec is a good start for testing) for the sake of balance.
5) Perhaps ECM affects NARc, perhaps not.

In my perfect world, NARC would simply allow the missle mech to see the target in the HUD, even through hills or buildings. It would then allow for instant lock when you point your reticule at the target. That way you could narc multiple targets and still be able to fire at the one you wanted.


As for TAG, having to expose yourself is a tough one. I would actually be really happy if you could TAG while the missles were in flight as that would allow for popup just as the missile get within a couple hundred meters. I also think a longer range for TAG might be needed. Again, testing will be needed on that.

[ManDaisy]

So is narc a missile or an ac shell? Not really clear on that one. Based on sarna artwork, narc seems to be more of a kind of ac shell to me. I don't see a problem with limiting transmission range for narc, after all narcs are more of a plant and run away kinda thing, not a I fire my narc and turn my mech 90 degrees and still my missile lock and do a cheap crazy u turn kinda thing as in mw4.

Edited by ManDaisy, 26 April 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Kaemon]

MaddMaxx, on 26 April 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

In the Fluff, the Pilot never saw the Raven, just radar flashes. With a max. range of 270m, how the hell did the Raven get a Beacon on said enemy mech with out being visible, for at least a short period of time...?

They are dumb fire right?

Because Scouts are awesome...and Assaults will finally learn to fear us.

[Ghost]

ManDaisy, on 26 April 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

So is narc a missile or an ac shell? Not really clear on that one. Based on sarna artwork, narc seems to be more of a kind of ac shell to me.

It's basically a special SRM that's been turned into a missile that carries the beacon as its payload. It hits the target, jettisons the engine portion and leaves the magnetic beacon stuck to the target, and it's impossible to remove under normal combat conditions -- except if that location is destroyed.

[MaddMaxx]

Kaemon, on 26 April 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Because Scouts are awesome...and Assaults will finally learn to fear us.

Don't often Scout with an Awesome, but do agree, it would be fearsome. LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 26 April 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Hayashi, on 25 April 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

If there's NARC detection, it should require the use of either equipment or a special ability. Maybe BAP.

What I found odd was that LRMs tripped a missile warning system, but the Narc pod didn't. It's supposed to be a homing beacon for missiles, not a stealth missile.

Ramien, on 25 April 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Narcs are normally destroyed when the part of the mech they are attached to is destroyed. Why not set it so that an individual beacon is destroyed after the mech takes a certain number of hits/damage, or just loses the armor on the part the beacon is attached to?

I would say have the narc make missile strikes more likely to hit a target location as well, but that would just lead to firing beacons from elevated positions to make head hits more frequent, so that's out.

That and have beacons not activate if they don't hit a mech, for simplicity's sake - either the pilot or the programming on the beacon should be able to tell when it hits.

Duration is limited in MW4, duration was unlimited in MW2 and the pod could not be destroyed... don't remember how it worked in MW3...

At any rate, I don't think it should be an indefinite duration. Having the pod destroyed with the body section it attaches to seems appropriate to me.

[Belisarius1]

What I'd do: add narc-guided ammo for LRMs that has slightly less shots per ton.

Normal missiles on a narced target will lock faster, and the spread will tighten around the section that the narc is stuck to.
Narc-guided ammo doesn't need to be locked, and will home in on the first narc the missiles see when dumbfired in a given direction. You could use narc-guided ammo as normal rounds without a narc in play, but it would be less efficient because it's heavier.

I'd give narcs a small number of hitpoints and a small hitbox that doesn't absorb shots for the armour underneath. They'd then naturally die to their own summoned missiles after a little while, and could also be shot off by random enemies or helpful friendlies. I'd also have them time out after like 60 seconds.

Edited by Belisarius†, 26 April 2012 - 05:12 PM.