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Harassment Prevention in the MWO Community


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#21 Victor Morson

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:03 AM

I'm all for a Reputation system; but honestly it's more to weed out griefers and rage quitters than anything else, as these elements hurt games far more than obnoxious pubbies. Though, once VOIP is put into the game (I realize it's not a launch feature) that's an issue too. These things get abused far less than you'd think.

That said, I think anyone who joins an organized unit will be fine. There's plenty of very cool people to play with, most of them veterans from past Leagues. Joining any one of them should drastically help improve your general game experience I think: There's only so much the other team can do to impact you in the slightest outside of playing well.

Really reputation is more to help pub players who aren't interested in joining a team. I do however like the idea of being able to rate merc units after a drop (if you're on their side) as it plays fairly well to the Merc Board rating concept anyway.

EDIT: I think by it's nature PC gaming has a different sort of audience, too, in particular for a 'mech sim. I've had my good and bad experiences all over the map PC gaming including griefers and terrible traits, but my attempts to play GTA4 multiplayer on 360 - a game that was actually pretty fun - continues to be my low point far and away. Non-stop racial slurs, people insisting how "hard" they were because of whatever city they were in and 9 out of 10 games included at least one person trying to rap into their mic. Finding a game without auto aim was almost impossible and in my entire period playing I found 2 people willing to even remotely work as a team. Anyway the point of this rant is I've never had anything even close to that or Halo 2 on PC even in twitch titles. Honestly a reputation system would have been futile since nearly every person I encountered would have deserved a 1-star.

View PostRejarial Galatan, on 26 April 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Having been harrassed IRL, I know the pain that comes with it. While I am ALL FOR RP harrassment, I in no way condone the real stuff. I myself, when I was but a wee 6th grader <graduated HS in May 2001 for time clarification> I was nearly killed by a fellow classmate when he took harrassing me to a whole new level and kicked me as hard as he could in my lower 4 left ribs. I dont need to tell those who know anatomy how lucky I am to be alive. What sucked more than nearly being killed was the teacher harrassing me after by saying: What did YOU do to provoke him? All i DID was sit there on my spot in the gym waiting for that sleezy coach to call roll. SO, no punishment is too harsh on REAL harrassment.


All that said, honestly I think people need to develop a thicker skin if they're going to be on the internet. It's damned near impossible to become "harassed" in a game like this, and positively not on any level remotely close to being kicked to death. Really even if the other team decides to break out a dictionary of insults, language or at worse case scenario racial/gender slurs (which is really the most obnoxious thing online) long story short is you can just shoot them in the face in-game and call it a day. They can't follow you, spam your e-mail address or start calling your phone unless the problem stems from way out of game.

I think a reputation system is good for teammates, because you can drop with obnoxious people sometimes if you're pubing in any game. But really, all I ever do in this situation is just step out of the game or kick them out, put them on my ban filter/remove them from any lists I might have them on and call it a day. That's the end of it. They were obnoxious, I won't play with them again on my team, the end. Reputation systems help warn other people about their behavior which is nice, but overall, as long as they're not my allies my problem has stopped.

Again like I said in the first part of the post, just joining a good team pretty much immediately eliminates all these problems. But yeah. You can't be physically harmed in a game and unless you've done something exceedingly stupid, you can't get harassed in real life from one either. Sticks and stones, and all that.

View PostKarl Streiger, on 27 April 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

Where is the border...between rollplay and real life?
Should i bee polite to a Liao Warrior or Snake - because they got hurt when i curse them?


I've always found anything more than a joking role play to be really awkward and strange at best, or laughably awful at worst inside of a MechWarrior game. That is, talking like a character or anything. It just doesn't work anymore than trying to act like a SAS officer would work playing Call of Duty. It's silly.

I don't mind fluff stuff written about a unit's exploits or characters in the unit; I think that's pretty neat. Things like in-character posters and stuff can be cool and added to a sort of shared greater fiction. I used to do little news paper clippings and stuff for major FWL/Aces battles back in NBT for kicks. There were a couple times we even did a few Clan quirks - we did a batchball with Ghost Bear once that bet an entire raid on the outcome of a single fight, for example. But we discussed it as players, even though the result contributed towards a fiction - if that makes sense.

What I did not do was start talking like I was actually a pilot in a 'mech mid-match to anyone, friend or foe, outside of maybe a joking reference to Clanners or something. Anyone who does that just comes across horrendously out of place, in particular when they try to RP in game aspects: It's impossible to talk about a map change in-character.

There's a time and a place for role playing (hell, I'll admit I loved MUSH/MUX games back in the day!) but in the middle of drop #86 for the week never seemed like one of them to me. The environment just isn't right for it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 27 April 2012 - 03:24 AM.


#22 Belisarius1

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:55 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 27 April 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

I've always found anything more than a joking role play to be really awkward and strange at best, or laughably awful at worst inside of a MechWarrior game. That is, talking like a character or anything. It just doesn't work anymore than trying to act like a SAS officer would work playing Call of Duty. It's silly.

[...]

What I did not do was start talking like I was actually a pilot in a 'mech mid-match to anyone, friend or foe, outside of maybe a joking reference to Clanners or something. Anyone who does that just comes across horrendously out of place, in particular when they try to RP in game aspects: It's impossible to talk about a map change in-character.


You'd be surprised how many people - fake Clanners especially - are dead keen on that kind of thing. Personally, I agree, I think it's really weird, but I wouldn't stop people doing it. More on-topic, if people want to RP-insult the other team then they can go wild. If they try it to me, I'll probably just snigger, but they'll survive.



On the thread in general, I agree with the message and the intent, but I think any kind of real code-of-behavior outside of internal unit discipline and possibly a +rep system is overreaching itself. It has to be left to people to police people; any attempt by the game itself to play big brother ends up being ineffective or ham-fisted at best, and community destroying at worst.

I want to keep typing "gk" when someone puts me down. I want to be able to converse good-naturedly with both my teammates and my opponents, and I want them to answer in kind. But I also want to be able to build rivalries and trash-talk when it's appropriate without getting hit by some kind of crazy-old-lady filter peering at me through her curtains.

The mechwarrior community has always been startlingly mature, and MW4 still stands alone as the friendliest and most teamwork-oriented game I've ever played, both in organised play and in pubs. That last is something of a miracle. Until proven otherwise, I will put my trust in the age and levelheadedness of the average mechwarrior, and will hope that any newbies get assimilated into the same code we've seen in the series so far. I really think that's the only way to do it. A conscious effort by the players and the community is essential, but one by the devs is not.

If the old blood come back strong and form the nuclei around which new players assemble, we won't have any trouble at all.

Edited by Belisarius†, 27 April 2012 - 05:38 AM.


#23 Kaemon

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 06:01 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 27 April 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

All that said, honestly I think people need to develop a thicker skin if they're going to be on the internet. It's damned near impossible to become "harassed" in a game like this, and positively not on any level remotely close to being kicked to death. Really even if the other team decides to break out a dictionary of insults, language or at worse case scenario racial/gender slurs (which is really the most obnoxious thing online) long story short is you can just shoot them in the face in-game and call it a day. They can't follow you, spam your e-mail address or start calling your phone unless the problem stems from way out of game.



-1 to this, this is not role playing PA or the OP is talking about, this is the garbage of the internet, and does not belong in games (or anywhere else for that matter).

Grow a thicker skin? Really?

Gotta love the internet, detached from reality, suffocated by anonymity, it will be both the savior and destroyer of the human race.

#24 Hayashi

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:06 AM

View PostHelmer, on 26 April 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I've always thought this community was rather special. Perhaps it's the higher median age, or maybe its just that Battletech fans are that much cooler than everyone else, but this is definitely one of the best communities out there. Especially in terms of respect and "noob" friendliness.

Very few exceptions to this so far, I'm glad to say. :P

View PostZylo, on 26 April 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

How many times do you think players will keep making new accounts to harass the community? Having to start over each time will probably stop the majority after a few times. These guys tend to go for the most damage in the least amount of time.

This. It may not possible to outright stop it, but we can make their life very difficult. :ph34r:


View PostBelisarius†, on 27 April 2012 - 03:55 AM, said:

You'd be surprised how many people - fake Clanners especially - are dead keen on that kind of thing. Personally, I agree, I think it's really weird, but I wouldn't stop people doing it. More on-topic, if people want to RP-insult the other team then they can go wild. If they try it to me, I'll probably just snigger, but they'll survive.

I'd rather not even have RP rudeness. If you have a problem with someone, don't call him a [REDACTED], just go out there and KILL the fella. And if you're unable to do it yourself, for any reason, get some help from your lancemates and do it.

Trash talking is unnecessary when you have PPCs.

#25 Prosperity Park

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:58 AM

View PostHayashi, on 27 April 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I'd rather not even have RP rudeness. If you have a problem with someone, don't call him a [REDACTED], just go out there and KILL the fella. And if you're unable to do it yourself, for any reason, get some help from your lancemates and do it.

Trash talking is unnecessary when you have PPCs.

You don't seem to know much about the art of insult. You see, a dead man feels no shame nor punishment. If you go out and kill the fellow, then your insult is for naught. Your only hope of accomplishing anything is to aid in their evolution - help them rise above their barbarian ways...


... basically suck it up, try to make humble jokes that redirects the anger into silliness, and get them laughing in a positive way; often the rudeness will fade a little. If it doesn't, then kill them.

#26 Garth Erlam

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:14 AM

Thankfully, our community has a higher-than-average age, which does help (sorry to be ageist, but on the average, you'll find more calm adults than calm 16 year olds).

The other thing to consider, and it's counter-intuitive, is that the set divides in the universe help. People are so used to making fake "damn you, Davions!" speaches that everyone knows they're in-universe bravado, and people get into playing with that and having fun.


As long as no-one gets a massive back tattoo of a Steiner fist while ranting about Atlas scout lances, I think we'll be ok ;)

#27 Hayashi

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:14 AM

View PostProsperity Park, on 27 April 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

art of insult.


I have to admit, you lost me there. :D

#28 DocBach

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:14 AM

I'd say at its core this community is a couple decades older than your average X-Box Live player - and again, the key word here is community. We're all here because of our enthusiasm for a game that has 30 years of history in dozens of different forms. Sure, there will be competition and some ribbing between the factions, but its the same way the BattleTech community has always; Davions bashing on Liaos, Dracs clowning on Steiners, everyone teasing Clanners, ect.

#29 MaddMaxx

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:07 AM

For some reason, while other games have them too, the Community and its incumbent members seem to value the Colors they wear more than most others. They take it upon themselves to not be that "Guy/Gal" that causes public embarrassment for the whole of their Group, be it Clan, House, Merc etc.

I could not imagine doing something that would have folks talking about my group in a disparaging manner. I would sooner resign my Online Commission than do that...

Maybe I am a novelty in that regards, but I see it and know that the others who I associate with and play this game with, feel similarly, if perhaps not to the same degree but it seems to be that way with all those we meet Online.

Fun banter and jibes about things is part of it as well. Getting down right nasty and personal... not so much. As noted, we have PPC's and all that trash talk gets you is those PPC's pointed in your direction. That is not to say you won't taste them anyways, but then it won't be for personal reasons on our part, just based on the fact you arrived on the same Planet as we did around the same time. LOL :)

P.S. If wish to type out trash while on the battlefield, fine and dandy, that is less time your on the proper keys. The Trigger.

We won't be having that same problem. ;)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 27 April 2012 - 09:09 AM.


#30 Claw55

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:50 AM

I for one support this 100%. Were a community of like minded individuals. Right now we're small enough that we can easly spot the kind of person who would directly offend someone for no other reason but to be a jerk, and deal with them accordingly.

Personally, I am worried about what will happen post-launch, when we have a lot of new people on with only a passing interest in BattleTech. When this time comes, there will be people a lot like the OP describes that will inevitably sneak in, its unavoidable. But I have faith that our community will be able to stand together against those who cannot bring themselves to respect thier fellow human beings.

#31 RedDragon

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:09 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 27 April 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

What I did not do was start talking like I was actually a pilot in a 'mech mid-match to anyone, friend or foe, outside of maybe a joking reference to Clanners or something. Anyone who does that just comes across horrendously out of place, in particular when they try to RP in game aspects: It's impossible to talk about a map change in-character.

There's a time and a place for role playing (hell, I'll admit I loved MUSH/MUX games back in the day!) but in the middle of drop #86 for the week never seemed like one of them to me. The environment just isn't right for it.

Roleplay can take other forms than acting a whole match as a clanner, including the map change. I'd even guess that's the exception. Roleplay can be a simple "Davion scum, come and take what is yours!" broadcast over general chat when the game starts, or a "You b*stard retort-born clanner!" when killed by an Omnimech. I don't think such insults can harm anyone if they are clearly directed at the player's ingame-character and are not pointed ad hominem. IMO you can clearly distinguish someone trying to RP from someone just being an a**.

#32 Hayashi

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:37 AM

View PostRedDragon, on 27 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Roleplay can take other forms than acting a whole match as a clanner, including the map change. I'd even guess that's the exception. Roleplay can be a simple "Davion scum, come and take what is yours!" broadcast over general chat when the game starts, or a "You b*stard retort-born clanner!" when killed by an Omnimech. I don't think such insults can harm anyone if they are clearly directed at the player's ingame-character and are not pointed ad hominem. IMO you can clearly distinguish someone trying to RP from someone just being an a**.

True enough. There's a difference between "Daviot [REDACTED]!" and your [REDACTED] [REDACTED] [REDACTED] is [REDACTED]!

Maybe the deciding point is when it switches from railing against someone's ingame identity to railing against someone's person.

#33 Prosperity Park

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostHayashi, on 27 April 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:


I have to admit, you lost me there. :D

One has not mastered the art of insult so long as they are unable to readily convert the aggressors into the amused.

#34 Hayashi

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:45 AM

View PostProsperity Park, on 27 April 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

One has not mastered the art of insult so long as they are unable to readily convert the aggressors into the amused.

Shouldn't it be "so long as they are unable to readily convert the victims into the amused"?

Unless the deflection of insult is in itself a property of the so-called "art of insult", lending it a more one-dimensional quality than it seems at first to possess.

#35 Sprouticus

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:13 PM

View PostKaemon, on 27 April 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:


-1 to this, this is not role playing PA or the OP is talking about, this is the garbage of the internet, and does not belong in games (or anywhere else for that matter).

Grow a thicker skin? Really?

Gotta love the internet, detached from reality, suffocated by anonymity, it will be both the savior and destroyer of the human race.


Kaemon, I understand your concern, and i would be more than willing to have some kind of rep function to help identify bad apples. Any large community (and lets hope MWO is a lareg community) needs a mechanism to minimize the problematic members.

But you are sorely mistaken if you think the advice to get a thick skin is not correct. The worl dif full of nasty people. I am 42 and have had to deal with my fair share of them. I was bullied like you would not believe as a child, to the point of anti-social behavior and sucidal thoughts. I was harassed as an adult for supporting friends who were minorities or gay or women.

compared to that, the crap on the internet is nothing. Mind you Im not saying it is not an issue, but the scope and lack of physical violence related to the trolling makes it a completely different animal. Word suck. Words can hurt, especially if it is constant or by peers/classmates/coworkers/family. But in the end words only hurt as much as you let them. This is doubly true for the internet where the person is a complete stranger whose opinion means NOTHING.

The verbal attacks I have endured in my life taught me something very early on. The lesson is simply. Most people, even nice people, dont have an opinion that really matters. What they think is so unimportant to me that it is hard to describe. The greatest compliment I can give a friend is that their opinion matters to me.

So when someone says get a thicker skin, they are right. Take action of someone is causing problem, but never let their words matter. When yo udo, they win.

#36 Technoviking

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:24 PM

View PostSprouticus, on 27 April 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:



So when someone says get a thicker skin, they are right. Take action of someone is causing problem, but never let their words matter. When yo udo, they win.



Yes, being able to correctly identify that the other person is bad or terrible does not make them change, or silence them. You will still hear the words, and must deal with them. So, certainly, growing a thicker skin is not a solution, but it is sage advice in a world where you can only change your small corner.

So yes, rage against harassment, report it, reputation system it. But grow thicker skin as well, because you still have to hear it first, before you can do any of that.

#37 Hayashi

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:24 PM

View PostSprouticus, on 27 April 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

But you are sorely mistaken if you think the advice to get a thick skin is not correct. The worl dif full of nasty people. I am 42 and have had to deal with my fair share of them. I was bullied like you would not believe as a child, to the point of anti-social behavior and sucidal thoughts. I was harassed as an adult for supporting friends who were minorities or gay or women.

As much as reducing the offenses matters a lot, increasing your own defense also helps; why say no to extra protection?

#38 Mattiator

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

Couldn't agree more with the whole 'auto-mute' idea for if/when VOIP gets added, although I'd add a caveat that the auto-mute goes away after a period of time, and if they continue to get muted the time the auto-mute returns for would increase (but never be permanent). As for text chat, I'd just have a simple 'report player' function, since in my experience action games never have too much trouble with abuse over text chat since the person is (usually) trying to play the game.

#39 Belisarius1

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:11 PM

View PostHayashi, on 27 April 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

As much as reducing the offenses matters a lot, increasing your own defense also helps; why say no to extra protection?


Because without fail that protection comes at the price of players' freedom to interact in ways that are appropriate. Algorithms can't play social police without becoming intrusive and stupid.

This board's profanity filter is a minor but frustrating example of this, as it bans a variety of innocuous words that are perfectly appropriate both between friends and in general internet discourse. I remember a dev post where Paul or someone used one and then went "wow, do we really filter that?"



Although i'm loosely in favour of a +rep system, tying it to something tangible like a dragoon rating is a recipe for disaster. As soon as something like that has real effects, you will get situations where friendly teams +rep each other to the sky after every battle to boost their ratings even if they're both total trash, and so the system is reduced to a measure of who can convince the most friends to press the button the most times.

If +rep is otherwise meaningless, it's still not a great indication, but it's at least better than one which invites abuse.

Edited by Belisarius†, 27 April 2012 - 07:25 PM.


#40 Johannes Falkner

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostHayashi, on 27 April 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

This. It may not possible to outright stop it, but we can make their life very difficult. :ph34r:

Just confine the offenders to the "Let ther be PONY" thread...





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