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Streaks Hit 100%

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#321 Xenok

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 09 December 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

While holding fire in your hand is one thing, that's not the same thing as say, someone throwing a baseball and hitting you in the head or arm or torso with it. You will shake. Now, get hit by a LOT of baseballs in the head, arms, and torso and see how much you shake.

Your example was bad... Try another.


Do not need another, a baseball would be the AC20, which should cause some shake. the firecrackers should not.

#322 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:02 PM

View PostXenok, on 10 December 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:


Do not need another, a baseball would be the AC20, which should cause some shake. the firecrackers should not.

Yes you do, for your fire ******* analogy to work, you'd have to have something like BB's, or maybe ping pong or wiffle balls be AC/20's.

Nope sorry, it's a crappy comparison, you have to realize you need a proportional type missle. I'm thinking an Este's rocket would come closer. Ever have a rocket go wild and the parachute charge go off incorrectly? On second thought no, I'm not sure what the equivalent would be for a high speed armor piercing projectile with several kilos of high explosive placed in its tip... Maybe .50 caliber rounds with explosive tips?

#323 Xenok

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:07 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 09 December 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Again your comparison to the 'firecracker' is flawed. A simple black cat won't do much damage when it's thrown and blows up on your upper torso. It'll sting a bit and burn like a son of a *****, but we're not talking 'fire *******' equivalent weapons here. We're talking 9mm or .50caliber exploding round armament, and yeah, you get hit in the upper body with those, it'll knock your butt down.

Incorrect, the shake should be equivalent to damage, velocity of the missles, mass of each missile, number of missiles striking, weight of 'mech, direction of travel of missiles vs direction of travel for 'mech, vs location hit.

Since PPC's are only firing excited protons, there's not much mass, but they will at some point impart an EMP like side affect, so cockpit shake isn't required. In my mind gauss rounds should cause the most shake as I believe they have the highest weight and velocity per round then misses and AC rounds, respectively.


Corrected a lot of spelling errors in the quote.

All of my examples are very valid. Cabin shake from missiles (with the exception of the arrow when its added in) is stupid. A bunch of pinging noise sure, but cabin shake from hits which individually are less than 1% of the armor makes no sense. Your arguments against this are simply foolish.

You are correct that the Gauss should have the highest shake, but since the Gauss does not have the velocity that a rail gun should (and I do not want it to) it also would not have the cabin shake that it should. The AC20 should have the unique special effect of causing sufficient cabin shake to, if you can keep up a good series of hits, make it difficult to target or drive. The Gauss does not need this.

I would be fine with the PPC having the EMP effect and no shake at all. Again this makes sense and I would agree with you on it, but if you do it as an effect based on damage, these are the next highest damage weapon next to the AC20 and Gauss, along with AC10.

I would personally rather see cabin shake (not just the hit indicator but the shake that makes it hard to target) restricted to specific weapons. Like the AC10 (mild shake) to the AC20 sever shake. It definitely needs to be nearly completely stripped from SSRM and LRMs. It makes no sense on any logical approach for these small bits of damage to shake your cabin so hard that you cant see to target.

#324 Xenok

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:13 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 10 December 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yes you do, for your fire ******* analogy to work, you'd have to have something like BB's, or maybe ping pong or wiffle balls be AC/20's.

Nope sorry, it's a crappy comparison, you have to realize you need a proportional type missle. I'm thinking an Este's rocket would come closer. Ever have a rocket go wild and the parachute charge go off incorrectly? On second thought no, I'm not sure what the equivalent would be for a high speed armor piercing projectile with several kilos of high explosive placed in its tip... Maybe .50 caliber rounds with explosive tips?


Again you are jumping to an AC20. The 50 cal is the largest weapon packed around by a person. Hmmm, sounds a bit like a AC20. If you want to look up some ballistics then do so. Explosions do not cause cabin shake when the explosion does less than 1% of the armor in damage. Use whatever comparison you like. Your idea that a 1.8 point explosion against something that has 400 armor and another 400 internal structure is ludicrous. Even 20 of them going off near each other would not cause enough shake to take you off target. Feel a little something sure, but not shake the mech around. I mean maybe enough smoke in the air to make it harder to see, but that is about it.

#325 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

View PostXenok, on 10 December 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:


Corrected a lot of spelling errors in the quote.

All of my examples are very valid. Cabin shake from missiles (with the exception of the arrow when its added in) is stupid. A bunch of pinging noise sure, but cabin shake from hits which individually are less than 1% of the armor makes no sense. Your arguments against this are simply foolish.

You are correct that the Gauss should have the highest shake, but since the Gauss does not have the velocity that a rail gun should (and I do not want it to) it also would not have the cabin shake that it should. The AC20 should have the unique special effect of causing sufficient cabin shake to, if you can keep up a good series of hits, make it difficult to target or drive. The Gauss does not need this.

I would be fine with the PPC having the EMP effect and no shake at all. Again this makes sense and I would agree with you on it, but if you do it as an effect based on damage, these are the next highest damage weapon next to the AC20 and Gauss, along with AC10.

I would personally rather see cabin shake (not just the hit indicator but the shake that makes it hard to target) restricted to specific weapons. Like the AC10 (mild shake) to the AC20 sever shake. It definitely needs to be nearly completely stripped from SSRM and LRMs. It makes no sense on any logical approach for these small bits of damage to shake your cabin so hard that you cant see to target.

You stupidly keep ignoring the fact that it's not just a difference in the mass of 'mech vs the mass of the missle. My arguments aren't foolish because my arguments are based on at least a basic understanding of phsyics.

It's the mass of the missle, plus the velocity of the missle, plus the explosion from the high explosive warhead, plus the loss of armor times the number of impacts, and if we had computing power enough to handle it, we'd need to also compare the direction of the warhead verses the direction of mech travel.

Your statement that a gauss not having the velocity of a rail gun should... Dude, you do realize that a gauss canon is a rail gun right? Both operate on the principle of high power magnets aligned in series pulling a ferros mass along a specific track to launch that mass at extremely high velocity long distances. Same everything so... Anyway, it was a weird statement, and actually a dumb argument, because there are no 'separate' weapons labeled as 'rail gun' in MWO that I am aware of.

Cabin shake makes sense when being hit in rapid succession by numbers of large inert masses (like AC and gauss rounds), or active exploding rounds (like LRMs and SRMs), and the blurring makes sense just like it becomes hard to focus when driving on an exceptionally bumpy dirt road. The human eye can only track so much movement, and it takes suprisingly little to vibrate you to blurry vision.

View PostXenok, on 10 December 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:


Again you are jumping to an AC20. The 50 cal is the largest weapon packed around by a person. Hmmm, sounds a bit like a AC20. If you want to look up some ballistics then do so. Explosions do not cause cabin shake when the explosion does less than 1% of the armor in damage. Use whatever comparison you like. Your idea that a 1.8 point explosion against something that has 400 armor and another 400 internal structure is ludicrous. Even 20 of them going off near each other would not cause enough shake to take you off target. Feel a little something sure, but not shake the mech around. I mean maybe enough smoke in the air to make it harder to see, but that is about it.

See the above post. Your ignorance of basic physics is showing...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 10 December 2012 - 01:27 PM.


#326 Josh Davion

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:36 PM

.50 Caliber has so much power that very little shake occurs. It's a bad example. The AC/2 to the AC/20 is as a .22 Caliber is to a 12 Gauge Shotgun Slug.

#327 Dimento Graven

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:41 PM

View PostJosh Davion, on 10 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

.50 Caliber has so much power that very little shake occurs. It's a bad example. The AC/2 to the AC/20 is as a .22 Caliber is to a 12 Gauge Shotgun Slug.

I dunno about that... My grandfather had an old .50 caliber black powder mountain gun. He shot a mid-sized white tail deer with it (around 200lbs), and his shot was off (grandpa's sight not being what it used to), didn't kill it, but when the round hit the deer, it was knocked to the side about a foot, recovered, then took off...

I'd say that small little bullet, not even 1% of the weight of the deer, having a sufficient amount of energy/inertia from the black powder launch that when it hit the target, just the energy from the launch and the energy from the inertia of the bullet was enough to push or 'shake' the deer into momentarily losing its balance and falling to the side. Imagine if that was an explosive round (not possible with black powder long rifles that I am aware of), probably would have completely knocked it on its ***...

It sucked too, because we had to chase that thing down for about an hour.

Anyway, for those of you that cry 'no shake in TT' again, while the TT rules were a starting point, they're not the unbreakable laws of god. So, keeping in mind the TT origins of what we have in game, let's all recall the piloting skill roll required when taking 20 points or more of damage in a round. There had to be a logical reason for including a rule like that right? Unless of course you want PGI to actually include a 'knock down' feature of weapon damage, I'd say that cockpit shake is a 'reasonable compromise' of the transition from TT to RT MMO FPS.

#328 Xenok

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:55 PM

Can we get off the analogies. I should never have used them.

The point is that the shake caused by LRMs and SSRMs ridiculous compared to the shake caused by an AC20. The shake of missiles is broken. Not just from a physics perspective, but from a game play perspective. Streak-2 launches should not cause cabin shake. Period. The same can be said of AC2. For the same reason. It enables a tactic based on constant hits to keep the other pilot from aiming. Such a tactic with what is the lightest version of the AC weaponry and other weapons of the same damage per hit level should not be capable of this. Its broken.

For those that think say no shake in TT, this is not TT don't give a dam. But to have a tactic of cabin shake available on weapons that hit for 2 points when we have weapons that hit for 20 is ridiculous to the game viability. The game was better when they had it completely removed, but not as good as it could be as far as this factor goes.

Large caliber weapons should cause some cabin shake, even enough to take a pilot off target. But it should be restricted to weapons that are large caliber in comparison. Those that claim LRMs are high explosives, they are not. They are low levels of explosive fire power. The arrow missile is a large missile with high explosives, when its introduced it can have cabin shake like a AC20 (as it explodes for 20 damage).

LRMs would be best implemented as a support weapon, cabin shake from them makes them primary as it removes the ability to target. Same for SRMs and SSRMs. The individual hits should not be enough damage (on the scale of damage from each hit) to cause cabin shake. The SRM, SSRM and LRM damage is spread around on the mech and the energy of the explosions sent in all directions, unlike ballistics that focus it.

IMO cabin shake should be limited to ballistic weapons, and then be very minor in the AC2 case to rather sever in the AC20s case. This would make only the Gauss (to slow to do it) and the AC20 (possible when we get a mech that can carry two, and get the UAC20 for faster fire rates) weapons that could cause the kind of shake to effectively disorient your opponent. This sever cabin shake should be the reason you pack an AC20, lets face it the weapon is just not enough of an improvement over the AC10 otherwise.

#329 Dimento Graven

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostXenok, on 11 December 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Can we get off the analogies. I should never have used them.

The point is that the shake caused by LRMs and SSRMs ridiculous compared to the shake caused by an AC20. The shake of missiles is broken. Not just from a physics perspective, but from a game play perspective. Streak-2 launches should not cause cabin shake. Period. The same can be said of AC2. For the same reason.
Incorrect. An AC20 doesn't fire a "stream" of rounds at you. It fires one big clump of non-explosive rounds. When that clump hits, you shake, then you stop. With missles, or a 'mech design with 2 AC/2's or 3 or more AC/5's they fire smaller clumps or streams of rounds at your 'mech that hit at a regular rate as long as you don't find cover or move behind the enemy firing them at you so that he can no longer target you. You shake for as long as you're getting hit by the rounds. If it were possible to rapid fire AC/20's or gauss rounds, you'd shake constantly then too, but you'd just be dead a heck of a lot more quickly.

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It enables a tactic based on constant hits to keep the other pilot from aiming. Such a tactic with what is the lightest version of the AC weaponry and other weapons of the same damage per hit level should not be capable of this. Its broken.
I disagree. You can aim while shaking, you just can't 'pin point' aim while shaking. As long as you didn't jerk your controller or panic and move off whatever was under your target when you started shaking is still under your target. The shake only affects your vision, not the physical placement of your 'mech or weapons. It's not neccessarily a tactic, but a side affect from employing another tactic, namely getting damage in as quickly as possible for as little heat cost as possible by firing weapons in chain so that there is a rapid fire affect on the enemy, and no "instant" heat shutdown. The shaking and blurring are just a bonus.

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For those that think say no shake in TT, this is not TT don't give a dam. But to have a tactic of cabin shake available on weapons that hit for 2 points when we have weapons that hit for 20 is ridiculous to the game viability. The game was better when they had it completely removed, but not as good as it could be as far as this factor goes.
Again, the gauss and AC/20 also cause cockpit shake. It's a bit of common sense physics being applied in game to increase immersion.

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Large caliber weapons should cause some cabin shake, even enough to take a pilot off target. But it should be restricted to weapons that are large caliber in comparison. Those that claim LRMs are high explosives, they are not. They are low levels of explosive fire power. The arrow missile is a large missile with high explosives, when its introduced it can have cabin shake like a AC20 (as it explodes for 20 damage).
I don't get your authoritative statement saying that LRMs are not high explosives. Are they nuclear? No, of course not. But essentially creating a warhead with an explosive compound equivelant to several kilos of C4 does qualify as 'high' explosive. They're certainly not loading the warheads with black powder.

An AC/20 IMPACTS for 20 damage. I don't believe AC ammo actually has explosive warheads, I might be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure the only 'explosive' component of AC ammo is the charge that launches the round. Beyond that, it's more or less like extremely large and dense bird shot and does its damage solely from impact, unlike missles which do both impact and explosive damage.

I think you need to rereview the theory behind all these BT weapons. Your lack of specific knowledge on how they are supposed to function has led you to some really spurious conclusions.

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LRMs would be best implemented as a support weapon, cabin shake from them makes them primary as it removes the ability to target.
LRMs are a first strike weapon, as is ANY ballistic weapon. To call them "support" shows an incredible ignorance about the proper utilization of ranged weapons.

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Same for SRMs and SSRMs. The individual hits should not be enough damage (on the scale of damage from each hit) to cause cabin shake. The SRM, SSRM and LRM damage is spread around on the mech and the energy of the explosions sent in all directions, unlike ballistics that focus it.
Ah, I see where you're confused. You believe that shake should strictly be a side affect of total damage. That's an incorrect corralary. Here in North Texas we've had several earth quakes. Shook homes and buildings with ZERO damage. Something that hits you with enough velocity, even exploding when it makes contact on you will shake you even though it may not cause a lot of actual damage. A lot of somethings doing that will shake you a lot, allowing for more damage for the duration of the impacts.

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IMO cabin shake should be limited to ballistic weapons,
Great! Then we're in agreement! Missles are actually ballistic weapons, they're just classified seperately in game to provide more options and flexiblity in game.

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...and then be very minor in the AC2 case to rather sever in the AC20s case.
One AC/2 hit would shake you not much, one AC/2 hit every half second would shake you a lot. One AC/20 hit would give you one big shake. Several AC/20 hits happening in succession should really knock our butts to the ground (please bring back collissions and tripping and add this feature!)

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This would make only the Gauss (to slow to do it) and the AC20 (possible when we get a mech that can carry two, and get the UAC20 for faster fire rates) weapons that could cause the kind of shake to effectively disorient your opponent. This sever cabin shake should be the reason you pack an AC20, lets face it the weapon is just not enough of an improvement over the AC10 otherwise.
So your answer to the shake that you don't like is to eliminate it in every weapon other than gauss and AC/20 and then improve AC/20 such that it becomes an insanely OP weapon...

Your unreasonableness on this matter is growing...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 12 December 2012 - 11:18 AM.


#330 Xenok

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:39 AM

View PostDimento Graven, on 12 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

" "


Anyway to block out a poster on these forums so this is all you see from them? If so please let me know. I need an ignore list for one person on this forum so far. I am not going to take the time to respond to your points other than this. LMFAO, the AC20 will be overpowered with the same cabin shake that we have from an AC2 or LRMs now, but LRMs are not overpowered when each missile shakes you like a single shot from an AC20..give me a break.

Lets simplify this down to a level even you can understand..

Does 2 points of damage cause the same shake as 20 points of damage today? yes

Should it?
According to you, apparently yes.
According to game balance, no.
According to physics, no.
Most Important: According to the development team: No.

The development team has said they will be restructuring cabin shake so that it is relative to the damage done in some kind of relationship to the Mech weight. I can not weight for its implementation.

Moderator please close this thread.

Edited by Xenok, 12 December 2012 - 11:55 AM.


#331 Dimento Graven

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

That portion of my response was based on the thought of having an ULTRA AC/20. Again, THAT particular beast would be OP to the extreme I think.

Besides that, stating that if the AC/20 is overpowereed then the LRM20 MUST ALSO BE... Just how is the LRM20 overpowered? Here's an AC feature list:

Fast velocity round, travels comparitively instantly to the target.
Requires no lock to fire and hit target
Can fire beyond the maximum stated range
Comparable faster reload times than LRM
Not affected by AMS
Less spread than LRM/SRM
If it hits, maximum damage is done.

Here's LRM's:
Slow velocity round, comparably
LRMs and SSRMs require locks for effective usage.
Hard locked at their maximum range. Anything beyond their indicated max range and the missle self-destruct.
Affect by AMS
If it hits, a only a random number of surviving missles will be used for damage calculation, spread across entire 'mech.

Are we even playing the same game?

No sir, I will NOT shut the hell up, at least until someone of actual consequence makes a request for me to be silent.

What you call 'nonsense' is logic based off knowledge of physics and knowledge of the theories behind the weapons from past years of following the BT lore.

I'm sorry you're having issue justifying your unreasonable position when faced with logic and knowledge, but that's really not my fault.

Feel free to ignore my posts, it won't hurt my feelings at all.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 12 December 2012 - 12:02 PM.


#332 Xenok

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

@Dimento Graven

Ultra AC20 will come, its in TT it will come here.

Once again I wont even justify your comparison with a response, you left of all kinds of advantages of LRMs off; really does not matter. The proof is in what people play, particularly in what people play in prepaid 8 man teams.

Prior to ECM:

* 8 MAN Awesome LRM boats were simply broken until ECM came along. No other build even came close.
* In Pugs there was a reason teams were coming in with 4 Catapult A1 in nearly every drop. Most armed with 6 streaks some with 2 LRM15 and 4 streak 2. (BTW streak 4 and 6 will also be coming)

Where is the OP AC20 in this?

You are once again completely unreasonable and irrational in your response based on what people play. We are playing the same game, but you see it through the same irrational eyes that would state that a weapon that can be used exclusively to win 8v8 games is not OP. GIve me a break. ECM has solved that problem and given us new ones. I expect that from a game where balance and tuning is what they are doing while in open beta. I am good with it.

Once again, the development team has said they will be restructuring cabin shake so that it is relative to the damage done in some kind of relationship to the Mech weight. I look forward to its implementation.

I also look forward to continuing to respond to this thread until you stop responding or they lock the thread. The responses are good for a laugh between me and two friends that play this game, so feel free to keep em coming, the unintended humor is a wonderful diversion.

#333 Dimento Graven

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:59 AM

View PostXenok, on 12 December 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

...
* 8 MAN Awesome LRM boats were simply broken until ECM came along. No other build even came close.
* In Pugs there was a reason teams were coming in with 4 Catapult A1 in nearly every drop. Most armed with 6 streaks some with 2 LRM15 and 4 streak 2. (BTW streak 4 and 6 will also be coming)

Wild, we ARE playing two different games then. I rarely saw an Awesome LRM boat, and I mean RARELY. I don't even know of anyone in my merc group that even plays one, and we're around 300 people, as far as finding 4 streak cats, or 3 streak cats nearly every drop, again, that describes something totally outside my experience with this game again, I'm now convinced we're playing two different versions of this game. You apparently are stuck in Bizzaro-MWO... Most of the time I play I see a semi healthy mix of Jenners, Commandos, Ravens, Cicada's, Catapults, Cataphracts (now), Atlas's, a few dragons here and there, Hunchbacks, occassionally a Cent that's NOT a Yen-Lo-Wang... It's a very notable event if the opposite team comes with more than 2 streak cats...

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Where is the OP AC20 in this?
Please go reread my statements, you miscomprehended what I was saying. I'm fairly certain that I never said the AC20, as it is now, is OP. It has enough of its own drawbacks to keep it in balance with most of the rest of the weapons in game.

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You are once again completely unreasonable and irrational in your response based on what people play. We are playing the same game, but you see it through the same irrational eyes that would state that a weapon that can be used exclusively to win 8v8 games is not OP. GIve me a break. ECM has solved that problem and given us new ones. I expect that from a game where balance and tuning is what they are doing while in open beta. I am good with it.
You're being melodramatic and over stating the affect of streaks and LRMs in a game. I thought you were bitching about cockpit shake, now you've shifted the conversation over to it's OP because people who use them win and beat you in matches. Apparently anything that causes you to lose is OP. You need to get over that...

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Once again, the development team has said they will be restructuring cabin shake so that it is relative to the damage done in some kind of relationship to the Mech weight. I look forward to its implementation.
Well you and your fellow ilk's QQ'ing have won out again, maybe. Most responses to "...I don't like it because in reality I don't understand it and am too lazy to figure out a feasible strategy..." posts have resulted in significant watering down, wasted efforts, and even more broken issues. But hey... If mediocrity is your goal... Congrats!

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I also look forward to continuing to respond to this thread until you stop responding or they lock the thread. The responses are good for a laugh between me and two friends that play this game, so feel free to keep em coming, the unintended humor is a wonderful diversion.
Then I never want to see you bitching about one of my posts again. You can't cry and moan that I'm responding, then say, "Oh now I look forward to it..."

Make up your mind.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 14 December 2012 - 08:01 AM.


#334 Xenok

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:40 AM

Edit: look on youtube for MWO LRM boats. You will see the awesome in action. The most interesting thing is; I agree - it is not the best LRM platform, but using a bad platform the team has no trouble killing everything with LRMs, further proof that before ECM the LRM/SSRM weapons was broken and OP.

Again thanks for the unintended humor and off topic posts.

Once again, to get back on the topic of streaks hitting 100% and what makes them broke, Lets simplify this down to a level even you can understand..

Does 2 points of damage cause the same shake as 20 points of damage today? yes

Should it?
According to you, apparently yes.
According to game balance, no.
According to physics, no.
Most Important: According to the development team: No.

The development team has said they will be restructuring cabin shake so that it is relative to the damage done in some kind of relationship to the Mech weight. I can not weight for its implementation.

I have never looked forward to the lack of logic, lack of rational thinking, or lack of understanding of physics displayed in your straw-man arguments of your posts, but the unintended humor is great. Hope that clears up exactly what I look forward to and what I do not in your posts. As a recap, the unintended humor, good, Everything else bad.

Edited by Xenok, 14 December 2012 - 09:48 AM.


#335 Dimento Graven

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:20 AM

View PostXenok, on 14 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Edit: look on youtube for MWO LRM boats. You will see the awesome in action. The most interesting thing is; I agree - it is not the best LRM platform, but using a bad platform the team has no trouble killing everything with LRMs, further proof that before ECM the LRM/SSRM weapons was broken and OP.
I'll have to find it. I think what I'll see is a coordinated team, working together to spot for an LRM platform, and that the LRM platform being utilized properly has a good affect. Plus, we'll see the team that gets destroyed reacting in an uncoordinated, random fashion, not working together to properly address their situation.

Having been on both the giving and receiving end of LRM death, I feel like I have some authority in speaking on that.

Plus, is the one video you're referring to taken from the 24 hour period immediately after Artemis? I wouldn't count that time period as proof that LRMs CURRENTLY are OP.

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Again thanks for the unintended humor and off topic posts.
Whatever, I'm just responding to what your typing... If you think my responses are funny, well... Happy to entertain.

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Once again, to get back on the topic of streaks hitting 100% and what makes them broke, Lets simplify this down to a level even you can understand..

Does 2 points of damage cause the same shake as 20 points of damage today? yes

Should it?
According to you, apparently yes.
According to game balance, no.
See, I don't see that.

What I see is a missle hit, causes cockpit shake. I see a guass hit cause cockpit shake.

With guass typically you only get one or MAYBE two hits at a time, a nice comfortable delay in reload, then maybe some more hits, if you're slow...

Now with missles, since they're streamed to you, you get, then you get hit, then you get, then you get hit, then you get hit, ad nauseum. Getting shook for each hit.

So the shake affect with missles can be continuous because you can be continuously hit with missles, where as with guass... No, not so much.

So yes, over all, as long as you're being hit with missles, you will end up with more cockpit shake than a guass. Gauss, it's one and done (or maybe two), but with missles? You can have upwards of 6 racks carried on a streakapult, so that's a series of 1 hit -shake-, 2 hit -shake-, 3 hit -shake-, 4 hit -shake-, 5 hit -shake-, 6 hit -shake-, reload delay and start over again. With LRM's, crimany... It can be upwards of 60 missles streaming towards you.

Over all affect, yeah lots more cockpit shake.

Again, having been at the giving and receiving end of that, I say it's an immersive factor that requires you and your team respond appropriately to the situation.

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According to physics, no.
You're wrong on this. I've explained it endlessly enough for you, but apparently you're a product of the United States Public Education system and lack enough basic understanding of phsyics to appreciate what's going on. Your ignorance doesn't make what is happening incorrect, it just means you really don't know what's going on.

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Most Important: According to the development team: No.

The development team has said they will be restructuring cabin shake so that it is relative to the damage done in some kind of relationship to the Mech weight. I can not weight for its implementation.
Many's the time we've seen bad 'knee jerk' reactions out of PGI when it comes to the players who find that their preferred method of play has become a little less easy than it used to be. I suspect we're seeing it again, IF, they actually change cockpit shake.

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I have never looked forward to the lack of logic, lack of rational thinking, or lack of understanding of physics displayed in your straw-man arguments of your posts, but the unintended humor is great. Hope that clears up exactly what I look forward to and what I do not in your posts. As a recap, the unintended humor, good, Everything else bad.
Whatever, your lack of reading comprehension means that apparently you can read a ceral box ingredient list and find humor. Good for you.

As it stand, just because you call an argument illogical, doesn't mean it is.

It just means you're either arrogantly ignorant, or stubbornly dense to the content of the argument.

Regardless, continue reading and responding as you like and I'll do the same...

#336 Xenok

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:03 PM

Dumb ***, look at the statement I am making.

I am not stating anything about multiple 2 point missiles hits. I am stating something about 2 damage verses 20 damage. In your example it would be 1.8 damage (single LRM) verses 15 damage (Gauss rifle) and you think the shake from these two hits should be the same? You obviously did not complete the 8th grade because the basic physics taught there would let you know that would not be true.

You however continue to present the stawman argument that would attempt to compare 10 1.8 point hits with one 15 point hit. The game code does not calculate (and should not) 10 hits together for shake. It should calculate the shake from each hit. An argument about multiple hits verses single hits is irrelavent as when the single hits do the appropriate shake the multiple hits will also do the appropriate shake. You are comparing apples (single strikes) to oranges (multiple strikes) which makes your entire argument flawed. You have never countered my argument.

Once again very clearly. Should a hit that causes 2 point of damage cause the same shake as hit that causes a 20 point of damage? You seem to think so, if you do all basic physics are out the window.

#337 Dimento Graven

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:32 AM

View PostXenok, on 15 December 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

Dumb ***, look at the statement I am making.
You no longer seem like you're enjoying the conversation...

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I am not stating anything about multiple 2 point missiles hits. I am stating something about 2 damage verses 20 damage. In your example it would be 1.8 damage (single LRM) verses 15 damage (Gauss rifle) and you think the shake from these two hits should be the same? You obviously did not complete the 8th grade because the basic physics taught there would let you know that would not be true.
No. I'm thinking that the guass should shake more, BUT, that as far as LRM/SRM shake goes, that's working just fine. I also understand cumulative affect of being hit repeatedly as opposed to just a single hit and what will have the greater affect, long term. See, what you really want from tone and how you've written things is for missles to have zero shake, or so insignificant a shake as to not matter. You hide behind the '...it looks like guass and AC shake the same...' silliness that the rest of your ilthought compatriots make. Plus the fact that, let's say for example in the streak argument, one guass is 20 points like you say, but a streak cat firing 6 streaks hitting at once does at least as much damage, and six streaks chained does as much damage accumulatively. Or in the case of LRMs, it's not just the one, it's the one and the 19, 29, 39 other friends that came with him.

You want a "one and done" and I explained why that was a mistaken assumption on your part. Obviously you felt foolish and that's why you felt the need to personally insult me.

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You however continue to present the stawman argument that would attempt to compare 10 1.8 point hits with one 15 point hit. The game code does not calculate (and should not) 10 hits together for shake. It should calculate the shake from each hit. An argument about multiple hits verses single hits is irrelavent as when the single hits do the appropriate shake the multiple hits will also do the appropriate shake. You are comparing apples (single strikes) to oranges (multiple strikes) which makes your entire argument flawed. You have never countered my argument.
It's not a 'strawman' argument at all. It's not one missle, it's 12, or it's 15, or it's 20, or it's 30, or it's 40, or hell, if you have MULTIPLE people firing missles at you, it could be well over a hundred. It's not an irrelevant argument, it's a very valid argument as the total affect is 1.8 (or more with streaks)xnumber missles hit, causing not only the vibrations from the impact but from the sudden shifts in weight from all the armor that's being sloughed off.

If you want to argue that gauss or the AC/20 should have their shake increased, I'll agree to that. But trying to eliminate missle shake, hiding behind illthought out arguments won't do this game any good.

Or to maybe explain it even better, an AC/20 or gauss you get a big hit, ONE big push, and the gyro compensates. 'Shake' done.

With missles it is more like hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, hit-push-gyro correct, ad nauseum.

That's the difference in the shake. That AC/20 or gauss push should be bigger and require more correction, or have one BIG shake. For missles, it's working fine.

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Once again very clearly. Should a hit that causes 2 point of damage cause the same shake as hit that causes a 20 point of damage? You seem to think so, if you do all basic physics are out the window.
If it was always one, or two points of damage, and then done, you might have a point, but it's not.

Clearly we can't agree on this because you really want ZERO cockpit shake from missles, or you want it reduced to negligable amounts like the machine gun.

Why not instead try and shift your point to increasing AC/20 or gauss to a great big shake instead? THAT would make MUCH more sense, and it makes ZERO sense to reduce cockpit shake from missle impacts to neglibility.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 16 December 2012 - 01:39 AM.


#338 Xenok

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:43 AM

From my point of view you are arguing for the current shake system. The current system causes the same shake from a LRM as it does from an AC20. You are using the argument that you get hit by a bunch of missiles which each cause independent shake. The argument that each of these cause an independent shake is fine but has no bearing on the current system or future system designs because the independent shake of each hit will take care of itself if the system works properly.

You will still get shake from missiles on the new system (I am assuming this to be the case) but it will be less shake per missile hit. the "hit-push-gyro correct" example that you used in the previous post will happen for each individual hit, as it does now. It just wont, and should not, happen at the same level for the individual missile hits as it does for an AC20.

My argument is simply two part:
  • 2 points of damage should never push the gyro out as far (thus requiring less correction and generating less shake) as a 20 points of damage.
  • The heavy hits (like Gauss and AC20, particularly the AC20) should get an effect that other weapons do not. This piece worked its way into the posts earlier but I really should have left it out as it confused the issue.

Once again, can you answer this question. Its really a yes or no question. Should 2 points of damage cause the same shake as 20 points of damage? You have not yet answered it. Once answered we can move onto repetitive hits causing repetitive shake which is what you keep attempting to discuss rather than answering the question posed.

Edited by Xenok, 16 December 2012 - 08:45 AM.


#339 Dimento Graven

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:53 AM

View PostXenok, on 16 December 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

From my point of view you are arguing for the current shake system. The current system causes the same shake from a LRM as it does from an AC20. You are using the argument that you get hit by a bunch of missiles which each cause independent shake. The argument that each of these cause an independent shake is fine but has no bearing on the current system or future system designs because the independent shake of each hit will take care of itself if the system works properly.
Perhaps at the beginning I was arguing that, but your point on the amount of mass that was hitting the 'mech verses the shake given has convinced me that a gauss round, or larget AC round hitting a 'mech should cause a great big shake.

The shake missles currently cause is fine. We need to enhance the impact that the gauss and AC rounds do.

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You will still get shake from missiles on the new system (I am assuming this to be the case) but it will be less shake per missile hit. the "hit-push-gyro correct" example that you used in the previous post will happen for each individual hit, as it does now. It just wont, and should not, happen at the same level for the individual missile hits as it does for an AC20.

My argument is simply two part:
  • 2 points of damage should never push the gyro out as far (thus requiring less correction and generating less shake) as a 20 points of damage.
  • The heavy hits (like Gauss and AC20, particularly the AC20) should get an effect that other weapons do not. This piece worked its way into the posts earlier but I really should have left it out as it confused the issue.

Once again, can you answer this question. Its really a yes or no question. Should 2 points of damage cause the same shake as 20 points of damage? You have not yet answered it. Once answered we can move onto repetitive hits causing repetitive shake which is what you keep attempting to discuss rather than answering the question posed.
Again I'll answer it, and try and actually reflect WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING in game as to why the current shake produced by missles is correct (again I now agree that the shake/displacement caused by getting hit by an AC20 or gauss round should be much larger).

In my hit-push-gyro correct model, that's a limited model of only ONE missle hitting at a time. That's more or less in congruence with your assumption and why you have stubbornly stuck to "it only does 1.8 damage so it shouldn't shake that much", but most of the time, especially with streaks, it's more than one missle hitting at a time. With streaks it's always at least 2 missles hitting at the same time for total 3.6 points of damage. Doesn't seem like much, unless someone, say in the case of a streak-apault is launching 6 sets of that, so it's 3.6, 3.6, 3.6, 3.6, 3.6, 3.6, IF the missles are setup to chain fire. Still that's 21.6 points of damage, greater than your 20 point gauss or AC/20. Of course not all streak-apaults are setup to chain, they fire all at once for a greater chance of 'insta-coring' an enemy, so thats just a plain 21.6 points damage hitting your 'mech at once (with LRMs while requiring more missles, the same difference applies as LRMs don't neccessarily strike one at a time, but apparently in clusters if you're watching closely), so in affect the shake being the same for a gauss/AC 20 and large amounts of streaks or regular missles makes sense in this case, according to your rules and even what you decided should and should not be calculated for the cause of cockpit shake.

Anyway, ultimately this boils down to an attempt to stay as close to table top rules as makes sense. As mentioned previously there was a knock down piloting skill roll you had to make in table top any time you received 20 or more points of damage in a round. That was regardless what hit you, lasers, PPC, machine gun, AC, missles, physical attack, whatever, and it was regardless your own 'mech's weight. If a 20 ton locust took 20 points of damage and happen to survive he had to make the same piloiting skill roll as the 100 ton Atlas did.

Now, I'd also agree to get rid of cockpit shake altogether IF PGI could implement some sort of piloting skill factor that, if a 'mech was hit so hard in a certain amount of time there'd be a chance for a knock down. I'd be all for it.

Something like that would be highly difficult to implement, after all, there's all the various factors to consider, a few of them being:

When does the 'time period' begin?
How long does the 'time period' last?
What can you do to piloting to give the pilot a chance to avoid falling using his own skills, but still have a chance of failure?

So on and so forth.

So again, you've convinced me: AC/20 and gauss don't shake/displace enough. PGI needs to increase the shakes/displacement related to being hit by one of those.

But the current shake system, as applied to all missles, works fine as is.

#340 Xenok

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:52 PM

I can deal with your current view point as I now understand it. It no longer seems like some ill thought out dumb *** I am talking too. :) I could not understand how any reasoned person could argue that a missile should cause the same shake as the AC20. I do disagree at the level of shake that should be caused per hit, but on that point we can agree to disagree. You would increase the shake from heavier hits and I would decrease the shake from the lighter ones. I think it likely that the new system will come somewhere in-between what you want and what I want. Likely we will both have to live with it.





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