336 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

LtPoncho, on 23 November 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Really eh? Seems like it's SSRM Online lately.The best way to play this game is keep whatever Mech is OP in your bay and pull it out at the right time.

You're playing a different game then. QuadAcaphracts®, Jenners, Commandos, and Ravens are the most common 'mechs out there from my play experience.

LRM boat Catapaults have been more common than streakapaults, though the swing to mixed LRM/SSRMs is coming more common as it should be because of the extreme 'density' of light 'mechs to come harras you.

[Charles Seneca]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Sorry I just fell asleep for some reason... where was I? Oh yes. For those of you who missed the following...

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

What I'm hoping will be addressed first is the cockpit shake/blur that occurs. I do not know of any TT rules that give penalties to die roles for taking damage last turn and it seems like that's what the effect equates to. Once players are not shell shocked by the constant barrage damage received they will be able to more effectively maneuver away from danger or address the threat head on and take the aggressor out.

The dev is spot on, as are those of us complaining about the crazy cockpit shake from SSRM boats.

While other weapons may cause similar or even greater cockpit shaking it is a well known maxim that two wrongs do not make a right. Therefore comparisons, whether valid or invalid, of the SSRM to other weapons, such as the AC2 or AC5, fail as an argument for leaving the SSRM as it is. It must stand, or fail, on its own merits.

Edited by Charles Seneca, 23 November 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Wheels]

A 65 ton mech with 6 x 1.5 ton ssrm2 - 9 tons plus another 6 tons of ammo and you now have a fast streak cat. Fast enough that you can not out run it unless you are a med or light. They do the staggered firing and your cockpit becomes a blur and you can not see to fire back. 2 SSRM rockets should not shake a heavy or assault class mech to the point that you can not see to aim. This is ****! When a team has 2 or 3 streak cats then you can pretty much forget it. And, don't give me that **** of your team should be able to kill them, yeah probably a premade but when you have a team of noobs, or people who have no interest in "TEAMWORK" then you have no chance. The LRMs hardly do any damage unless lobbed in 30 to 45 count streams of rockets. I can take out Lights and Meds but heavies and assaults you almost have to use 400 to 500 LRMs per kill, ridiculous. I know this is open beta....

The only way to get back to having fun is running around in a light or med at 130kph+ and just do hit and runs. 1 game in 20 I might actually have a match where it was a really good fight, evenly matched and not one side having a superior advantage or inexperienced team mates. FRUSTRATION LEVELS are through the roof!

Wheels

[JamesT Kirk]

Dimento Graven, on 21 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Incorrect, if you have sufficient propellent available, a fast moving missle can change direction 180 or more degrees, it just requires more propellent burn. Part of the reason why streaks are "short" range missles.

Even in the 20th century we had missles capable of this, and capable of doing so at longer ranges than our crappy 31st century streaks, let me tell you.

I agree that a missile with enough propellant could do a 180degree turn.

But I doubt that it could do it within 100m !!!
Despite the enormous g-force that would break the missile in 1000s of pieces, there are some simple facts that a missile can't fly that way:
atmosphere....
and mass inertia.

All known missiles use some tiny flaps to change direction, even if supported by a swiveling thruster (as F22 Raptor has). But at some point the airflow along these flaps breaks off, it stalls! At that point it completely looses its ability to influence the airflow to change direction.
And you cant even change the direction of a 100kg (propellant, warhead, structure) missile within a tenth of a second..

In this game physics is completely ignored dealing with ssrms

Even with the most sophistaced guidance system it would NEVER be possible to guarantee 100% hit chances under all circumstances...

Another point to mention:
Reliability.
Don't think that 100-200 missiles can be fired without the one or other being dud or with defective electronics.

[Hakkukakt]

Quote

But I doubt that it could do it within 100m !!!
Despite the enormous g-force that would break the missile in 1000s of pieces, there are some simple facts that a missile can't fly that way:
atmosphere....
and mass inertia.

and what you think on the fact you drive a giant mech on a planete side elsewhere in the cosmos ... ? that's not so realist too ^^

[HRR Insanity]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

-One thing I'm trying to solve is the SSRMs firing out at a perpendicular angle to your mech as some people have mentioned. Target lock is broken at 45 degrees instantaneously but they still look weird flying out at those angles. Latency also plays a part. I had a system in place where the streaks would launch straight out for 10m or so and then start tracking the target but it didn't look as good as I hoped.

How will that work now that you've implemented something that maintains targeting info behind you... with the 360 Target Module? Will lock still break @ 45 degrees off LOS?

Insanity

Edited by HRR Insanity, 23 November 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Charles Seneca, on 23 November 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Sorry I just fell asleep for some reason... where was I? Oh yes. For those of you who missed the following...



The dev is spot on, as are those of us complaining about the crazy cockpit shake from SSRM boats.

While other weapons may cause similar or even greater cockpit shaking it is a well known maxim that two wrongs do not make a right. Therefore comparisons, whether valid or invalid, of the SSRM to other weapons, such as the AC2 or AC5, fail as an argument for leaving the SSRM as it is. It must stand, or fail, on its own merits.

You are of course assuming in your 'two wrongs don't make a right' theory that cockpit shake is in fact wrong.

It is not. It makes sense. You have a large mass of high velocity explosive rounds impacting and exploding against your 'mech, sloughing off tons and tons of armor. Of course it will shake severely, and of course it will blur your vision.

Does shake affect the direction of your weapons? No.
Does shake affect the refire rate of your weapons? No.
Does shake affect the speed of your weapon's travel? No.
Does shake affect the speed of your 'mech? No.
Does shake affect the direction of your 'mech? No.

All it does is affect pilot vision. It's disturbing, it can be startling, it's not neccessarily funny or enjoyable when it happens, BUT, it is in keeping with simulated warfare, which this is.

[Dimento Graven]

JamesT Kirk, on 23 November 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

I agree that a missile with enough propellant could do a 180degree turn.

But I doubt that it could do it within 100m !!!
Despite the enormous g-force that would break the missile in 1000s of pieces, there are some simple facts that a missile can't fly that way:
atmosphere....
and mass inertia.

All known missiles use some tiny flaps to change direction, even if supported by a swiveling thruster (as F22 Raptor has). But at some point the airflow along these flaps breaks off, it stalls! At that point it completely looses its ability to influence the airflow to change direction.
And you cant even change the direction of a 100kg (propellant, warhead, structure) missile within a tenth of a second..

In this game physics is completely ignored dealing with ssrms

Even with the most sophistaced guidance system it would NEVER be possible to guarantee 100% hit chances under all circumstances...

Another point to mention:
Reliability.
Don't think that 100-200 missiles can be fired without the one or other being dud or with defective electronics.

You'd be very suprised at what today's missles can do. They can do this at 1000's of meters actually, 100's of meters is a fairly insignificant range for 20th century guided missles. Inertia is affected by two things mass and thrust, modify direction of thrust and you affect velocity and direction of travel all easily manipulated in 20th century missles.

As far as the '100% chances', I take it you haven't played recently... SSRMs have been missing, even with locks, without intervening 'mechs or buildings. I don't know what they've done, but 'to-hit' percentage seems to be about an effective 80% when the missles do fire (as they don't always due to losing of lock and that sort of thing). Of course if the pilot just sits there and ******* about cockpit shake while they're getting hit, the chances do increase significantly close to 100%.

HRR Insanity, on 23 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

How will that work now that you've implemented something that maintains targeting info behind you... with the 360 Target Module? Will lock still break @ 45 degrees off LOS?

Insanity

Good question. I haven't noticed being able to maintain a lock on something behind me, only that I get to continue to see my target's paper doll, and location on the mini map radar.

[zrap]

got elite full on my A1 before this patch as a streakboat (when people complained they missed to much and were useless etc.)
It was fine, I could still destroy lights and mediums pretty easy, for heavies and assaults ... well to kill an atlas took forever and they had to be pretty bad. But in my opinion ssrms were just fine, my role was light/med hunter, very often i got all kills on the lights of the enemy team.

I have no ******* clue why they buffed them. now a streak cat worth his salt (read:. using his fast speed and jumpjets to avoid damage, as well as alphas and chainfire right for damage/disruption) can take on everything pretty easy, even "normal" infight mechs relying on lasers, balistics, srm's.

Of course you can deal with it when you play in a group by focusing it first. but that doesn't make them balanced. Also there are a lot of bad streakcats around that fail to "abuse" the advantages of the build. also doesn't make them ok.

I hope they manage to balance ssrm, especially against normal srm2 it's a complete joke - maybe a bit more weight and heat, i don''t know, but the buff this patch wasn't neccesary and too much IMHO.

[Need4Fail]

zrap, on 23 November 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

... now a streak cat worth his salt (read:. using his fast speed and jumpjets to avoid damage, as well as alphas and chainfire right for damage/disruption) can take on everything pretty easy, even "normal" infight mechs relying on lasers, balistics, srm's..

You need to be really bad to lose in 1 vs 1 to an streak cat if you are piloting a heavy or assault mech.

The damage SSRM do vs a full armor heavy/assault is still low compare to other weapons. SSRM works better vs light and medium (low armor). "can take on everything pretty easy" is a big exageration.

[Zolthar]

Dailey, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

From patch notes: Streaks (SSRMs) are now going to hit 100% of the time. Are you kidding me, nothing should hit 100%. I guess now we will be playing SSRM online instead of LRM online. Who would want to play anything else now?

I hate the 270M max weapons. Feel free to shoot your silly SSRM on me, 600meters away pounding on you with dual UAC5:P

Oh you want to charge me? be my guess, I have some fellow teammate that will be waiting for you.

[verybad]

I think if they got rid of the always hit the torso requirement that they added, they'd be fine. There's no reason for them to always hit the torso. Of course when I'm using SSRMs against a target, I like that, but lets be honest here, that's unfair.

Just change it to 100% hit, random hit on the target any location available. If they're overpowered now, that nerfs them, but in a way that let's them keep their uniqueness.

[Charles Seneca]

Dimento Graven, on 23 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

You are of course assuming in your 'two wrongs don't make a right' theory that cockpit shake is in fact wrong.

It is not. It makes sense. You have a large mass of high velocity explosive rounds impacting and exploding against your 'mech, sloughing off tons and tons of armor. Of course it will shake severely, and of course it will blur your vision.

Does shake affect the direction of your weapons? No.
Does shake affect the refire rate of your weapons? No.
Does shake affect the speed of your weapon's travel? No.
Does shake affect the speed of your 'mech? No.
Does shake affect the direction of your 'mech? No.

All it does is affect pilot vision. It's disturbing, it can be startling, it's not neccessarily funny or enjoyable when it happens, BUT, it is in keeping with simulated warfare, which this is.

First of all, you managed to quote my entire post apart from the bit that supplied context. How disengenuous of you. Here it is again:

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Quote

What I'm hoping will be addressed first is the cockpit shake/blur that occurs. I do not know of any TT rules that give penalties to die roles for taking damage last turn and it seems like that's what the effect equates to. Once players are not shell shocked by the constant barrage damage received they will be able to more effectively maneuver away from danger or address the threat head on and take the aggressor out.

Secondly, "two wrongs don't make a right" is a maxim not a theory.

Thirdly, excessive cockpit shake is wrong. This was explained by the dev in the part of my post that you managed to omit. See above.

Fourthly, this is not simulated warfare. What this IS, is a simulation of a TT role playing game. A game that has its own rules which sometimes have nothing to do with reality. See above. This is a fact. Get used to it.

Edited by Charles Seneca, 23 November 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[JamesT Kirk]

Hakkukakt, on 23 November 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

and what you think on the fact you drive a giant mech on a planete side elsewhere in the cosmos ... ? that's not so realist too ^^

You know, in our world the have some machines called Tanks or Panzer....
Weight up to 100tons (Königstiger 70t, Leopard A2 62t).
Driving at 100km/h and more.
What is the max weight of a mech here ? Yeah right, 100tons.. MATCH.

Think you got the point...
Anything obeys the simple rules of mechanic and physics, even in the farthest galaxy physic is existent...

[Chrithu]

Franklen Avignon, on 20 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Min/Max'ers destroy game balance.

Wrong. Min/Maxers are much needed to identify balance issues or flaws in the system. Easy as that. In a perfectly balanced world it would not matter what Min/Maxers do and personal skill would be all that matters.

[Hakkukakt]

JamesT Kirk, on 23 November 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

You know, in our world the have some machines called Tanks or Panzer....
Weight up to 100tons (Königstiger 70t, Leopard A2 62t).
Driving at 100km/h and more.
What is the max weight of a mech here ? Yeah right, 100tons.. MATCH.

Think you got the point...
Anything obeys the simple rules of mechanic and physics, even in the farthest galaxy physic is existent...

yeah but on the same time .. we are on 3054 in futur ... the giant mech is himself a improvment of mechanical combat ... perhaps there are the same improvment on missile ?

i dont know what is more right ... the fact is on this rulement game ... the physic work on this profile and it's all ... you normaly drive a giant mecha on a suit that permit a gyrostability for your mech etc ... you use big laser and electromagnetic canon .. and some old fashion gun ... on the same time you use too a atomic generator motor .... an go throug space on space carrier with i dont know what tech in ....

so puting real tech/physic and on the same time something that doesnt exist now => something between real and fiction so no surprise if something seem not real or exactly 100% physical correct ^^

Edited by Hakkukakt, 23 November 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[warp103]

SSRM is about get nerf paul said so so even though the guy DEV there explain they are not they are about get hit by the nerf back. Just take the dam cat out and shot them or remove missile and call it battleNerf. My new name for the game coining the term.

Edited by warp103, 23 November 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Charles Seneca, on 23 November 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

First of all, you managed to quote my entire post apart from the bit that supplied context. How disengenuous of you. Here it is again:

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

All right, for table top rules that provide some sort of penalty for damage taken during match how about the the following, that's existed since first edition BattleTech:

Piloting Skill Modifiers:
BattleMech takes 20+ points of damage in phase - +1

Now granted this doesn't discuss blur, but considering we're trying to translate simulated 'mech warfare (a war SIM) from certain TT rules, this one probably doesn't fit well. After all, in the heat of the battle we'd have 'mechs falling all over the place if we had to contend with that little beauty.

As far as TT rules and the like, I'm fairly certain PGI has stated they weren't going to let themselves be hampered by TT rules that may not work for a real time warfare sim.

Quote

Secondly, "two wrongs don't make a right" is a maxim not a theory.

I misspoke, you quoting that maxim based on your theory that cockpit shake is wrong, is the point I was trying to make.

It is absolutely stupid to think that having tons of missles impacting you, and having the high explosive contents of those missles blowing tons of armor of your 'mech wouldn't result in cockpit shake. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Quote

Thirdly, excessive cockpit shake is wrong. This was explained by the dev in the part of my post that you managed to omit. See above.

No, it's not wrong, and I don't get that from your quote. What I understood from that quote was that once all the whiney little pansy pilots get used to the shake, they'll be less apt to panic and will be able to handle themselves a bit better by either getting away from the attacker, or fighting back. Again, the shake rattles you, it might disorient you a bit, but where your target reticle was pointing before, it's still pointing there, your weapons will still fire, you can still drive your 'mech, all it does is blur your vision.

Are you capable of making that head shot you seem so desperate to always want to make? Probably not, but, should you really be able to while receiving a barrage of explossive missles? No, not especially.

Quote

Fourthly, this is not simulated warfare. What this IS, is a simulation of a TT role playing game. A game that has its own rules which sometimes have nothing to do with reality. See above. This is a fact. Get used to it.

It's simulated warfare based off the same universe as the TT game, this is NOT BattleTech TT simulated. If you want that, PGI is developing another game called MechWarrior Tactics which I understand is closer to a TT simulation.

This is a battlemech simulation, 'real time' where table top rules can't always apply. Heck, if we went with TT rules, we wouldn't have hard points, nor 32 armor points per ton, we'd have true double heat sinks, piloting skill 'rolls' for damage taken. Not all TURN BASED TT rules can work in a REAL TIME sim.

So we have to take a step back and ask, "What makes the most sense for the most immersive sim possible?"

Cockpit shake from being hit by high velocity, exploding masses, is one of those things that should be included for an immersive sim.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 24 November 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[warp103]

It whine whine whine. USE AMS and Cover and SSRM would not be op hell is has a limited range for christ sake.


New game name "battlenerf".

Edited by warp103, 24 November 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[Maltduck]

streak cats are for no skill losers but thats what the game has gone to