336 replies to this topic

[Pugnacious Stoat]

In a fight between a light mech and a streak boat, the streaks negate player skill on both sides. Light mechs tend to use close range weapons like small laser, medium lasers, and srms, and rely on outmaneuvering their opponents to stay alive. Unless you want to remove yourself from the fight entirely, you have no choice but to get within 270m of where the streak boats are operating. And once you're there, no amount of maneuvering will save you from taking 30 damage every 3.5 seconds, quickly leaving you disabled or dead. Meanwhile, all the boater has to do is keep his reticule on the light mech (aided by the catapult's extraordinary torso twist range) and remember to click every time the weapon reloads.

Some of you seem to think that's fine, since the streakapult is meant to be a light killer. Two problems with that: First, this is an action game, not an RTS. Builds should not hard counter each other in a way that the disadvantaged player can't overcome through some combination of intelligent tactics and superior skill. Currently, the only viable tactic for light mech pilots to use against a remotely competent streak boater is running away, and that won't win you the match if the boater has positioned himself properly. Secondly, the streakboats I've seen post patch (and I have seen a lot of them) have been deadly against most everything on the field, not just lights and mediums. Is that really surprising, when you consider that they are guarateed 30 damage on the targeted mech every 3.5 seconds, no matter what sort of crazy maneuvering and jump-jetting they do to make themselves harder to hit?

I don't understand how the community can welcome the relegation of lrm's to a secondary role, on account of their being "no skill" weapons, and still be fine with ssrms being strong primary damage dealers, when they also rely on a lock-on mechanic. If anything, ssrms are worse than lrms--long range and short range mechs alike could use cover to defeat lrm boaters, while there's very little a short range comabatant can do to get a tactical edge on ssrm boaters.

[Asatruer]

Pvt Dancer, on 20 November 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

No, that is not how they are suppose to work. They are suppose to still miss, but if you hit, both missiles hit. They are not suppose to hit the same location either.

Sarna.net said:

Originally developed in 2647, the Streak SRM Launcher is relatively similar to the standard SRM launcher but linked to a unique Targa-7 fire control system. This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, a special feature of this system preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss anyway.

Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

So yes, they only fire if a hit will be scored, and if a hit is scored all missiles will hit. They can still miss in that in TT you still have to roll the 2d6 with the normal modifiers and a miss is possible and even likely depending on range and the targets speed and all those normal TT hit modifiers, but the missiles will not fire on a miss. That effect is simulated here by SSRMs not being able to fire without the lock, unlike LRMs. You are at least correct in that the missiles should have a pretty low chance of hitting the same location.

[ackstorm]

I run a streak cat to keep the scouts out of my base and it works well for that purpose. However, skilled scouts run circles around me easily and once they get into my blind spot its almost impossible to get another solid lock on them.

Heavies have little problem taking me down, the only hope I have with them is to hit them when they are not looking at me.

When you remove the diversity of your weapons layout to only have streaks, or only have lrms, or only have gauss cannons you effectivly hamper your ability to fight outside of a narrow scope. This works great in that narrow scope, but once your enemy figures out your strategy they can counter it and you can't do much about it.

The problem is that most players I run into dont seem to think about it. They just try to fight back on my terms and complain when they lose.

With all streak missles for weapons I dont have a choice about which parts of another mech I concentrate fire on. I just have to keep pounding away and hope I out-damage them before they can knock my weapons off my shoulders, or disable my legs and blow my rear armor off - which is not all that difficult to do.

I have also noticed that even though I can fire streak's at a good distance away, until I get close to the enemy my missles are either missing or doing less damage - because they dont seem to take much damage.

Edited by ackstorm, 20 November 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Terick]

ackstorm, on 20 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I run a streak cat to keep the scouts out of my base and it works well for that purpose. However, skilled scouts run circles around me easily and once they get into my blind spot its almost impossible to get another solid lock on them.

That can be removed if the new monduls are working the way they say they should. The 360 degree targeting and then use the free view with your cockpit to keep the targeting ont eh scout, Tthe there is also backign up against a wall/building/cliff, and makign it impossible tog et behind you.

SRMs don't so much damage is a problem. Lower damage, make sure they dont' all home to CT (they should spread every where ont eh mech, would love if they would hit legs to increase my salvage pay), and maybe a slight bump up in the cool down timer to amke refire take longer.

[ackstorm]

Terick, on 20 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

That can be removed if the new monduls are working the way they say they should. The 360 degree targeting and then use the free view with your cockpit to keep the targeting ont eh scout, Tthe there is also backign up against a wall/building/cliff, and makign it impossible tog et behind you.

SRMs don't so much damage is a problem. Lower damage, make sure they dont' all home to CT (they should spread every where ont eh mech, would love if they would hit legs to increase my salvage pay), and maybe a slight bump up in the cool down timer to amke refire take longer.

I agree the fact it focuses on center mass is causing too much wear on the same part of the mech but once you start down the 'randomized hit' logic you can end up with damage that never adds up before your opponent takes you down.

It would be if great each time you locked on to a target, a specific body part was then the focus of your missles until the next time you lost lock/relocked in which case the body part you were locked in on is randomly different. With how hard it is to maintain lock on fast targets this would make it very difficult to focus on a single point of the body unless you had become very skilled at keeping targets in the crosshairs.

Then skilled players would be able to master the weapon, and unskilled players would not be able to take unfair advantage of the weapon.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Just in case u guys haven't figured it out yet, here is my analysis of PGI's decision-making process wrt OP weapons:

1. Gaussapults are OP. Solution: Make GRs very fragile so they have a high chance of blowing up. Problem is the Catapult's torso is extremely difficult to hit. Love it!
2. Streak Cats are OP. Solution: Buff SSRMs a bit more and add in Beagle Probe etc to make them acquire a target faster.

So...don't complain unless you want more grief.

Edited by Brown Hornet, 20 November 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[ManDaisy]

Seems to me that streaks are 100% hitting the center torso now. They are absolutely devastating now.

[AC]

Streaks should hit 100%, but they shouldn't hit the same location. That is what is happening now and what is racking up fast kills. They NEED spread, but each missile needs to hit. They also need a longer lock-on time and a cool down.

In observer mode I was amazed at how fast mechs could get lock and how much ammo they could pump out.

[Kaijin]

Streaks are still missing. !00% is bogus.

[Kaijin]

Pugnacious Stoat, on 20 November 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Currently, the only viable tactic for light mech pilots to use against a remotely competent streak boater is running away

A perfectly normal thing when a light mech is trying to take on a heavy mech. Streak Cats are the answer to light mechs being able to take mechs down that weigh 2 or 3 times as much as they do. If a Light wants a Streak Cat dead, then a request is made of a heavier teammate to do the deed. That's balance for you.

edit: The community is sick of lousy net code that gives Light mechs such a huge advantage. The only equalizer is the SSRM. Those members of the community who berate LRM users the most are also typically plagued by Light mechs. So there's your reasons.

Edited by Kaijin, 20 November 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Caleb Lee]

Well, here's a constructive idea to change how SSRMs work:

1) Lock on - Keep the lock on requirement, after all the missiles hit 100% of the time unless a pilot interposes something inbetween or simply breaks/turns at a high enough speed at the right time.
2) Aim - Make the missiles go where the pilot is aiming. I.E. Pilot wants to hit CT they have to keep their reticule aimed on the CT. Or if they want to take out a leg for example, they keep it aimed on the leg. If they reticule moves off the target the missiles lose track to wherever they are aimed, and hit a random part or if enough time passes lock is lost. This doesn't nerf them against light mechs as the missiles will still hit regardless of hit box. However, it does make it much harder to hit the same spot over and over.
3) Reduce knock - SSRM2s shouldn't knock as much as they do especially against medium/heavy/assault. What happens when SSRM 6s come out? I make the same argument against AC2s. Light caliber weapons shouldn't rock the aim on heavy/assault mechs like they currently do.
4) Increase spread or randomize it. I.E. Not all missiles track as accurately to where the player aims. So damage is spread around somewhat but more concentrated where the player aims.

This way the system rewards skill based players and isn't as cheesy auto-win for people with bad FPS or poor aim. If you can keep the reticule on the mech part you want to hit, it goes there otherwise your damage is spread all over or potentially lost. You also don't have the chain fire rocking around of mechs a A1 streak cat should never consider going up against like another heavy or assault for example. Catapults have paper armor, an A1 should be a support mech or harrasser for light mechs.

LRMs you could at least dodge. SSRM2s really don't have much in the form of weaknesses for poor players. Two A1s can literally shred any mech in the game right now and it takes no skill to do so.

1) Chain-fire will keep even a good player from being able to fire back accurately. I.E. UAC5/Gauss/PPC etc...
2) Auto aim, and most of it goes to CT. Before you say just rotate torso, how do you do that against a never ending chain of SSRM2s?

Edited by Caleb Lee, 20 November 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[BlackAce]

Pugnacious Stoat, on 20 November 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Some of you seem to think that's fine, since the streakapult is meant to be a light killer. Two problems with that: First, this is an action game, not an RTS. Builds should not hard counter each other in a way that the disadvantaged player can't overcome through some combination of intelligent tactics and superior skill. Currently, the only viable tactic for light mech pilots to use against a remotely competent streak boater is running away, and that won't win you the match if the boater has positioned himself properly. Secondly, the streakboats I've seen post patch (and I have seen a lot of them) have been deadly against most everything on the field, not just lights and mediums. Is that really surprising, when you consider that they are guarateed 30 damage on the targeted mech every 3.5 seconds, no matter what sort of crazy maneuvering and jump-jetting they do to make themselves harder to hit?

I don't understand how the community can welcome the relegation of lrm's to a secondary role, on account of their being "no skill" weapons, and still be fine with ssrms being strong primary damage dealers, when they also rely on a lock-on mechanic. If anything, ssrms are worse than lrms--long range and short range mechs alike could use cover to defeat lrm boaters, while there's very little a short range comabatant can do to get a tactical edge on ssrm boaters.

I suggest you try driving a Streak Cat and see just how hard it is to get a lock and keep it at knife fighting range against lights. You can't even pull the trigger without that lock. Then there's the fact you're totally ammo dependent and your weapons are mounted very prominently in very easily destroyed locations.

Frankly given the size and speed of light mechs, Streak Cats are about the only effective counter to them beyond other lights. There's always a counter to everything and nothing is insurmountable.

If Streaks are suddenly such a problem for light drivers, I suggest that's because light drivers have had it far too easy since Open began.

[Laserkid]

Well, Time to arm up my 2xLRM15, 4xSSRM2 Cat and ruin everybody's day. <troll face>

[Alexandrix]

BlackAce, on 20 November 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

I suggest you try driving a Streak Cat and see just how hard it is to get a lock and keep it at knife fighting range against lights. You can't even pull the trigger without that lock. Then there's the fact you're totally ammo dependent and your weapons are mounted very prominently in very easily destroyed locations.

Frankly given the size and speed of light mechs, Streak Cats are about the only effective counter to them beyond other lights. There's always a counter to everything and nothing is insurmountable.

If Streaks are suddenly such a problem for light drivers, I suggest that's because light drivers have had it far too easy since Open began.

I agree that jenners(i don't see the same issues killing ravens/coms) have had a broken advantage,I agree that hit detection/netcode is complete garbage,I agree the the streak cat is a hard counter to squirrels.

But,please....seriously...stop pretending killing anything in a streakcat is difficult...because it's not.I have an A1 streakboat in my hangar,I've used it enough to get up to master module(along with 2 other cats).It is BY FAR the easiest mech in the game to absolutely dominate with.Gaussapult at least takes a tiny amount of skill to aim,and a higher amount of skill to actually be good with.

Want to know how to win with a streak cat?
1.get within 270m(which isn't hard running 74+ KPH with an XL300+)(don't pretend it is)
2.hover reticle in general vicinity of opponent
3.Hold down mouse button
4.watch the pretty explosions

That's it.If that's difficult for you,then I don't get how you tie your shoes by yourself in the mornings.Just admit it's stupidly broken and stop trying to act like it's not,in some pseudo defense of your OP toy.

It's fine to admit something you use is OP,there's nothing anyone can do about it anyways,and you admitting it's broken isn't going to suddenly send the devs into a frenzy to nerf it.If they are going to nerf it,the will regardless of how any of us feel about it.

Edited by Alexandrix, 20 November 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[drloser]

BlackAce, on 20 November 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

I suggest you try driving a Streak Cat and see just how hard it is to get a lock and keep it at knife fighting range against lights.

Do you play with a joystick? It's really easy to kill a light when you're piloting a Streak Cat. Maybe you should try to use your jumpjet more often, I don't know...


No skill weapons should not be so powerful.

[White Bear 84]

Kyone Akashi, on 20 November 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Especially those Small Lasers with their optimum range of 90m, hai?

I told you everything is OP.. ..super serial!!

[Dragonkindred]

For a quick fix, why don't we limit SSRM2's to a max of three units per mech?

Then have them spread across the torsos.

Problem solved. Light mechs need to beware, but it's not a total wipeout for them. Larger mechs don't need to worry much at all.

[Roadbuster]

SSRMs were ok before this patch. Sometimes they would miss but not too often, so they were viable but not overpowered.
They were still devastating for light mechs.

Streak Catapults are overpowered because of th way SSRMs work now. Had a match yesterday against a team with 2 Streak Cats. I was running a Centurion with an UltraAC/5, 2 MPL, 3 SSRM2 and AMS (for hunting light mechs) and a friend was running his new Cataphract with 1 Gauss, 2 ERLL and AMS.
Going all out till I overheated and aiming at my opponents CT from 10m distance, I managed to take it out with all of my torso and arm armor gone and internals orange or red.
My friend got killed by the other Streak Cat very fast and it still had some armor left.

My opinion is that Streaks should be changed to how they were before this patch and LRMs get slightly increased damage again.

Not sure how ECM will effect these weapons but I hope ECM will be limited to some mech types or requite more slots or have higher weight for mechs it's not intended for.

[Cest7]

2 missiles. One misses. 100% hit rate.

[Karl Streiger]

Increase ammunition costs - and let them pay the full price.
Maybe increase costs for every item in your armory when it is bought for the second or multiple times.

You couldn't run a Streak Boat when you have to pay 54.000 C-Bills for every ton of ammunition you have wasted. Considering a Streak Pult with 6tons of ammo and you have to pay 324.000 C-Bill when you used all of them. I don't think that 6tons of SRM ammo is much?
The looser with this would be those that allready used balanced builds...so increase the costs of every additional ton of ammunition you buy.
So example...you start with 25% of the price for a ton when you buy a single ton. You pay 50% for the second ton...75% for the third...full for the fourth...150% for the fifth and 200% for the sixt ton....something like that.
Believe me missile or ac or gauss boat mechs will vanish in no time...however...a major part of less skilled players too