Opinion on Melee Weapons
Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:58 PM
My idea is to set it during the very beginning of the Clan Invasion, her character is going to be test piloting an experimental mech when she's shoved into battle without warning. So I am designing her a brand new mech.
I want the mech to be very versatile and forgiving for her so this is what I've come up with:
Name: TSL-0A Tesla
Mass: 60 Tons
Internal Structure: Nicol Charge EX
Armor: Valiant Lamellor
Engine: Krupp Armaments Works 300 XL
Jump Jets: Chilton 460
Jump Capacity: 150 Meters
(2) PDVR Piledriver Model 11-D PPC's
(4) Defiance B3M Medium Lasers
Hatchet (OR, Sword + AMS)
Triple Strength Myomer
Manufacturer: Defiance Industries (Experimental)
Primary Factory: Hesperus
Communications System: TharHes Calliope ZE-2
Targeting and Tracking System: TharHes Ares 7
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 3 Tons
Engine: 300 XL 9.5 Tons
Heat Sinks: 12 (24) Double (What can be held in the engine without criticals which are... strapped)
Gyro + Cockpit: 6 Tons
Armor: Standard 200 Points
Center Torso: 29
CT (Rear): 10
L/R Torso: 20
L/R Torso (Rear): 8
L/R Arms: 20
L/R Legs: 28
(2) PPC's in Left Arm (Cooling Jacket makes it look like a shield w/ two large barrels, hand hidden under barrels)
1 Medium Laser in Each Torso, 1 in Head
Hatchet in Right Arm
2 Jump Jets in R/L Torso, 1 in Center Torso
Triple Strength Myomer and Endo Steel all over.
So! Now that the beauty has been revealed (I'll be drawing a picture of the mech and writing fiction about the campaign later) my question is this:
The 'Mech was designed to pack the firepower and armor of an assault, onto the size and speed of a Medium using the new tech that GDL gave out and stuff shared with Davion, It's primary purpose is hunter killer, extended combat, and deep raids. Thus the lack of ballistics and missile weapons and reliance on energy. It can fire it's PPC's and Run without heat issues indefinitely and if it needs to close it can fire off some medium lasers while closing to generate excess heat and activate the TSM. If it fires off everything /and/ runs it generates 10 excess heat which is pretty much on the button to activate double close combat damage (Can we say 24 point kicks and hatchet clubs? Yes we can.)
My thought is that the AMS would make a /killer/ addition defensively but, it means the mech has to purposefully run hot in order to get potential 1 hit kill power (As a sword does only 7 damage compared to the hatchets 12) using the Triple Strength Myomer. The other thing is ammo, AMS /does/ use ammo, and so it has potential to be cooked off or hit with a crit and kablooey.
So TL;DR version, Hatchet or Sword + Anti-Missile System.
Also: Feel free to use the Tesla in your campaign if you like.
Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:18 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:25 PM
Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:47 AM
However, with regards to the use of a melee weapon being easy? I disagree.
Getting that 1 in 6 Head hit on the Punch Table for a melee weapon requires the player to take a +3 penalty, meaning the attack with the Hatchet is at a +2 instead of a -1 for a normal Hatchet attack. With a MechWarrior that has Regular-rating Piloting skill, that makes a huge difference.
There's also the the added issues of needing to know the speeds and positions of enemy 'Mechs so that a player can actually take advantage of initiative to close in to range 1 to even get to make the physical attack. Many enemies, including quite a few Clanners I'm sure, would love to just back away from a melee 'Mech and blast away with their extraordinarily long-range weapons.
And finally, the TSM heat issue. It's quite the project to get that heat level up there, and after that you're forced to maintain that heat sometimes by firing weapons you might not even need since those Medium Lasers don't produce too much heat, plus having +9 heat on all the time create a +1 to-hit penalty for the 'Mech, (Then there's the problem of Flamers and Inferno SRMs messing up your Heat level, but depending on what the opposing force fields it might not be as much of an issue.)
So yeah. There's a lot to worry about. How many (Double) Heat Sinks do you have on there? I feel like the 'Mech's firepower is a bit anemic within the PPCs' minimum range. Have you considered Pulse Lasers to offset the penalty from having TSM on?
Posted 02 May 2012 - 05:13 AM
Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:15 AM
As for the heat, the heat is easily managed. Just because you're within minimum of the ppc doesn't mean you auto miss, it means at 3 it's +1 over short range, at 2 it's +2 to hit and at 1 it is +3 to hit.
Also, a 1 in 6 chance is /raw chance/ I'm not talking a called/aimed shot which requires the enemy to either be immobile or to have a targeting computer since you can't aim for the cockpit with a targeting computer anyways. When you punch/chop you use the partial concealed hit location, which removes the legs from the chart and puts you at around a 1 in 6 chance to hit the head/cockpit. Much better chance than the normal hit location table.
The mech has 12 double heat sinks, it can disperse 24 heat per round (As I wrote in the original write up). It also has jump jets, so in close it can jump up and over someone to rack up some heat, fire all it's mediums for +12 heat and if all else necessary I believe you can turn off heat sinks if you want to but snap firing a ppc at point blank range is still the same as shooting at long range iirc.
As to difficulty: Hatchet's are -1 to the roll to hit, Swords are -2 to the roll. Thus swords are inherently easier to hit with than a hatchet. That's all I meant.
The TSM however with a hatchet though... yeah that's a lot of damage. 20 from medium lasers, 20 from PPC's, 24 from hatchet, 24 from kick. That's 88 damage possible (Not likely) but possible.
Whoever would have thought AC/20 Damage would be considered anemic. Blows my mind.
Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:26 AM
Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:54 AM
Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:55 AM
Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:18 AM
Also the Sword /is/ at the wrong tech level, had forgotten, so hatchet it is. Thanks Sierra.
Also, the PPC's are there because they are nasty. They'll cut right through armor on a lot of mech's and straight into internal structure.
Also: 2 PPC's + 4 Medium Lasers... not sure why I need even more medium lasers. Anyways, thanks for the note Sierra, about the Sword had forgotten when it came out.
Also: Max armor is max armor, dropping tonnage isn't going to get me more armor. With 200 points of Armor I have more armor than quite a few ASSAULT mechs. Heck a Warhammer has only 160 points of armor. Victor's only have like 184 or something like that. I literally cannot fit more armor onto it.
Also, PPC's threaten at 18 hexes compared to 15 for large lasers (To be fair I originally had 3 large lasers on it, but, decided for heat/range/damage 2 PPC's was more efficient since 3 large lasers is 24 heat by themselves).
Thanks for the advice on hatchet/sword though. For the critics: Try building it out, see how many crits and such are left. It's about as strong as it can be. It doesn't have ammo issues. It can't explode, and it packs mean punch at range (while closing), in close, and has good movement versatility with solid speed and jump jets all with as much armor as you can get (max is 201 points, so I'm missing a single point out of max on center torso)
Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:19 AM
The TSM for example becomes a big pain in the arse quick. Soon you have the new player thinking the entire game is about heat management since they spent the whole two-three hour match playing "BattleMath" with the Shutdown chart.
In 3025, without the SLDF tech, the game is a little easier to wrestle with when starting out.
Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:19 PM
I don't imagine the TSM will be an issue, the mech is generally heat neutral you have to really /push/ the heat in order to get it to climb. At range fire two ppc's and run for 22 heat, heat sinks dissipate 24 and you're at a net -2. In close combat, fire all 4 medium lasers, 12 heat, that's half the dissipation of the mech.
It's a real easy mech to be effective at multiple ranges and not be easily trapped in. Which suits the campaign of a young noble fresh faced mechwarrior, testing an experimental mech cuz Daddy said so in the Lyran Commonwealth
Also by adding the hatchet, should she get into close combat she's effective there as well, hatchet + 4 medium lasers is quite some kick.
With the armor of the mech being so heavy (Literally half a ton less than a thunderbolt and more than a crusader) she'll have good survivability. Should be fun for her I hope.
Anyways, that's why I didn't put her in Tech 1 level stuff because at that level, a solitary mech is generally dead meat.
Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:46 AM
Whoa, what? You have standard Medium Lasers in your design. Medium Pulse Lasers are completely different weapons.
And yeah, as mentioned earlier in the thread, you may only EITHER kick OR hatchet in a single physical phase, assuming your 'Mech even MAKES it to that phase still on its feet.
4 Gunnery + 2 for running (+3 for jumping!) to get close to your target + target movement modifier + terrain modifier +1, 2, or 3 for minimum range on PPCs...Do your dice enjoy rolling 12s or something?
"Partial Concealed Hit Location"? Man, you're running some really outdated rules there. Punches hit on the Punch Table, which is exactly like the table that I believe you're talking about, but Hatchet, Sword, and Retractable Blade attacks hit on the full-body table under the most current rules (Total Warfare). That way, TSM-powered weapons aren't ridiculously overpowered. Did you know Partial Cover isn't a +3 penalty anymore?
Maintaining heat on a single 'Mech only requires a little arithmetic, yes. Only of slight difficulty, though somewhat harrying for new players in my experience. Maintaining heat on a single 'Mech while looking like an actual threat to enemies? Yeah, not quite the same thing. Jumping will throw off aim. TSM heat will throw off aim. Minimum range modifiers will throw off aim. Medium and Long Range modifiers will throw off aim. Do you see where I'm going with this? The reason why I suggest Medium Pulse Lasers is because the inherent -2 bonus they get goes a real long way towards make the firing phase more potent for a brawler 'Mech.
"As to difficulty: Hatchet's are -1 to the roll to hit, Swords are -2 to the roll. Thus swords are inherently easier to hit with than a hatchet. That's all I meant."
Both of those are still really bad (+2 and +1 respectively) if you want to use the Punch Table. That's all I meant.
"The TSM however with a hatchet though... yeah that's a lot of damage. 20 from medium lasers, 20 from PPC's, 24 from hatchet, 24 from kick. That's 88 damage possible (Not likely) but possible."
Attempting maximum damage in an alpha strike means you're throwing away your speed bonus from TSM as well as making the next turn extremely disappointing thanks to risks of shutdown, smaller movement modifers from slow speed, and horrible accuracy from heat penalties. Also, again I need to mention, no kicking and arm attacks on the same turn, and you don't have an optimal alpha range with those PPC minimums!
"Whoever would have thought AC/20 Damage would be considered anemic. Blows my mind."
Same damage, different effect. Medium Lasers 1.) don't headcap, 2.) don't strip entire side torsos in a single blow, 3.) can't used specialized ammo, and 4.) aren't awesomely giant overcompensating boomsticks. Yes, Medium Lasers are very optimized weapons, but they can not concentrate damage like larger weapons can. You're trying to tout this 'Mech as some sort of machine that can do everything in a campaign with ease, but practice may prove this to not be the case.
Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:30 PM
As for it 'making' it to hand to hand combat... it most definitely should. It has 12.5 tons of armor, on a 60 ton frame, with good speed and jump capability.
I'm not saying you're going to run into melee, fire both ppc's, all medium lasers, and then swing the hatchet. Though you could if you really wanted to get the TSM going.
I'm saying that it can do 2 10 damage hits at up to 18 hexes indefinitely. As it closes it can start adding medium lasers in there to start working it's heat up, then in melee range it can pop off all it's medium lasers for 20 damage, and swing for 24 damage with hatchet, or kick for 24 damage due to triple strength myomer. If it really absolutely needs to, it can also fire off a ppc as well, either for heat or additional damage.
It's a very versatile design, which doesn't have ammo problems, and is a threat at all but extreme range. Am I saying it is invincible? No. No mech is invincible. It /is/ a strong design though and yes I do know that AC/20's apply damage differently than 4 medium lasers. The potential for AC 20 damage is still there. 20 points, it's hardly anemic.
Also, please excuse the 'pulse' I threw on there, dunno what I was thinking in that particular line.
It's supposed to be a balanced and well rounded design that doesn't suffer from extended campaigns (Ala ammunition woes) in a variety of roles.
Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:16 AM
Ah, that reminds me--how are you going to deal with massed infantry or Elementals (aside from retreat with Jump Jets)? You'll need Flamers for one and Inferno SRMs for the other (or both). And Infernos are VERY unsafe to use with TSM.
I'd remove any sort of melee weapon if I were designing a versatile 'Mech. Kicks are the main melee attack of choice for most scenarios, even with TSM, and Punches, while not as easy to hit with, are great for finding that damaged torso to poke a hole in. The tonnage saved from not mounting a melee weapon can be put into upgrading the Medium Lasers to Medium Pulse Lasers (very effective IMO). In this manner, you can also find a "sweet spot" at 4 hexes for maintaining TSM heat by firing one PPC and three Medium Pulse Lasers if you wanted to mix things up.
Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:29 PM
Sorry for the confusion. I meant by 'solo' as in, it will be a campaign based around the character and their small tech group trying to keep their experimental prototype out of enemy hands. They won't have ammo reloads, and armor will have to be salvaged when and where possible. That's what I meant
Easy mistake, lost in translation, sorry for all the back and forth as we're on the same page.
I just designed it so it didn't have to worry about ammunition. The player is going to have to fight defensively, only engage in high risk close combat when it's safe (or at least less dangerous than staying at range) to do so.
Think emphasis just got placed in different spots unintentionally. Will it hold it's own against other mechs? Absolutely. Will it go toe to toe with some assaults, sure, because they're generally less optimized. Other assaults would smash this down. Doesn't matter what mech you're in, always gotta pick your battles smartly and use terrain to your best advantage
Sorry for the confusion, we're on the same page.
Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:47 AM
Your campaign, man.
Posted 07 May 2012 - 09:57 PM
Posted 07 May 2012 - 10:47 PM
Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:20 PM
When you really want to use TSM offensive you have to use more and different weapons - light laser, pulse laser...
It is always a tactic with bad taste an less chance of success to concentrate at TSM and physical only.
so drop the TSM - the sword isn't available in 3050.
Why to create a complete new mech at all? I think the 5K Grand Dragon should be a good start
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users