128 replies to this topic

[Bloodycrow]

What really bothers me about this community is all the talk of being huge fans of MechWarrior or the tabletop game, and then those same people constantly talk down the one game that has already been around for years, AND actually emulates the tabletop aspect by having combined arms play.

A group of guys work their *** off to bring a MechWarrior game into existence after the drought of nothing, and these so called "true fans" scoff at their work, or worst; talk crap about it without even playing it.

I'm just as excited for MWO as the next guy. But to blow off MWLL "because it's a MOD" or "because it's not being made by paid developers" or even "because it's not a published game" is pure [REDACTED] through-and-through. Those guys love MechWarrior and Battletech just as much as we do, and they deserve both praise and recognition for not only all the hard work put into getting out such a high-caliber piece of work, but for paving the way for MechWarrior games as well.

[ManDaisy]

MWLL is the sword of damocles hovering over MWO. Born from the last remaining embers of Battletech fandom, it is the spark that ignited the pheonix that is MWO. MWLL is both a hidden blessing and a curse to MWO. Like bitter rivals and friends they push each other higher and higher to perfection.

[pursang]

Bloodycrow, on 02 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

What really bothers me about this community is all the talk of being huge fans of MechWarrior or the tabletop game, and then those same people constantly talk down the one game that has already been around for years, AND actually emulates the tabletop aspect by having combined arms play.

A group of guys work their *** off to bring a MechWarrior game into existence after the drought of nothing, and these so called "true fans" scoff at their work, or worst; talk crap about it without even playing it.

I'm just as excited for MWO as the next guy. But to blow off MWLL "because it's a MOD" or "because it's not being made by paid developers" or even "because it's not a published game" is pure [REDACTED] through-and-through. Those guys love MechWarrior and Battletech just as much as we do, and they deserve both praise and recognition for not only all the hard work put into getting out such a high-caliber piece of work, but for paving the way for MechWarrior games as well.

Alright, let's get this out of the way: MechWarrior is not BattleTech. It may be closely related and based on BattleTech, but MechWarrior has never been about combined-arms warfare. Why do you think that the video games have been called MechWarrior and not BattleTech? You play a MechWarrior! Not some fighter pilot, or tank crewmember. A MechWarrior - something a lot of purists seem to forget. In fact, it's debatable if MW:LL should have even been called MW:LL and not BT:LL instead.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting this from - but nobody in this thread is canning MW:LL because it is a mod. The point that we're trying to make is that no matter how good a mod it may be - it is still a mod made by a small group of people with limited resources. The fact of the matter is that it stands to reason that such a game as MW:O would be (hopefully!) better then any mod, good or bad. If not, then PGI is a terrible development team and we shouldn't even be here discussing this. However, we know them to be good: We know that they are fans of the genre, we know that they have had previous success with computer games, we know that they actively participate in the community and want the community to form an active hand in its development, and we know that they have certain resources at their disposal.

Now please, do us all a favor and get off your high-horse; you look ridiculous up there.

[TripleAwesome]

The thing I find humorous about all of these MWLL threads is people bashing it for it's lack of consequences. Yes, when you go out and die, you can just respawn and continue fighting. That's because you're playing on a server that doesn't have player tickets turned on, so don't make it sound like MWLL can't be played like that if it's really what you want. MWO is going to be offering similar game modes with instant or round-based respawns to get you back into the action, and I vow to eat my own hair if that isn't going to be what the majority of MWO players spend their time playing, just as in MWLL.

Those who want to do organized drops with their unit against other units are going to do so in both games, but don't act as though MWLL doesn't have the capacity to be played in such a way. No, there isn't a persistant economy, but I don't see that as a damning issue. It's just that your average casual player wants to jump in, make some big 'mechs go boom, and jump out when they've had their fill.

[Nasty9]

-aaa- has a good point. There really isn't a need to bash MW:LL because it has defined a different scope than what MWO has set for itself.

The LL developers have done a damn good job making a modern Mech game. Just because it doesn't fit exactly what you want doesn't mean its crap.

Hell, I bet that PGI has taken notice what has been successful for LL and what hasn't. They would be foolish not to. A the very least thank the LL developers for this.

[Bloodycrow]

pursang, on 02 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Alright, let's get this out of the way: MechWarrior is not BattleTech. It may be closely related and based on BattleTech, but MechWarrior has never been about combined-arms warfare. Why do you think that the video games have been called MechWarrior and not BattleTech? You play a MechWarrior! Not some fighter pilot, or tank crewmember. A MechWarrior - something a lot of purists seem to forget. In fact, it's debatable if MW:LL should have even been called MW:LL and not BT:LL instead.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting this from - but nobody in this thread is canning MW:LL because it is a mod. The point that we're trying to make is that no matter how good a mod it may be - it is still a mod made by a small group of people with limited resources. The fact of the matter is that it stands to reason that such a game as MW:O would be (hopefully!) better then any mod, good or bad. If not, then PGI is a terrible development team and we shouldn't even be here discussing this. However, we know them to be good: We know that they are fans of the genre, we know that they have had previous success with computer games, we know that they actively participate in the community and want the community to form an active hand in its development, and we know that they have certain resources at their disposal.

Now please, do us all a favor and get off your high-horse; you look ridiculous up there.

I never said anything about MechWarrior being Battletech. I said MWLL emulates the aspect of Battletech. And at any rate, that entire argument is silly, especially if you're such an ardent fan of MWO, seeing how it pulls all the 'mech weapons and loadouts straight from CBT itself. I constantly see threads "will MWO have Battlearmor?", "will MWO have tanks?", "will MWO have aerospace?". It's plain to see that people are wanting and expecting more than just 'mechs in this MechWarrior game.

And do you think this thread is the only place people talk about MWLL? It certainly has been canned for being a MOD, something I feel that is extremely undeserving, considering the quality and effort put behind it. In fact, you go on to claim that that MWO is expected to be better because...? Because it has financial backing? Because PGI is a paid development team? Because they've worked on previously published software? That certainly sounds like something you just said wasn't happening in this thread. :/

I simply think it's unfair that the work the MWLL devs have done gets scoffed at, pushed aside and ridiculed by the self-proclaimed "true" and "hardcore" fans, especially now that MWO is in the pipe. I'm not saying MWLL has to be played and enjoyed. Not everyone likes every MechWarrior iteration. But noone should pretend that it doesn't exist or isn't important. It's arguable that MWO wouldn't be what it is today without the groundwork that the MWLL devs layed out before them.

[AlfalphaCat]

Bloodycrow, on 03 May 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:


It's arguable that MWO wouldn't be what it is today without the groundwork that the MWLL devs layed out before them.


It's not just argueable, it's true! Just last year Bryan Eckman was playing MWLL. Before any of these rabid fans even knew that MWO was even a possibility. You all were still waiting for MW5, and most cried when that wasn't going to happen for them.

I think they all think they can just be suck ups for Beta keys.

The argument that MWLL is made by 'amatuers' is rediculous for the simple fact that many of the original devs got jobs because the worked on MWLL.

What do you think Flying Debris was doing before he came to work for PGI?

[pursang]

Bloodycrow, on 02 May 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

I never said anything about MechWarrior being Battletech. I said MWLL emulates the aspect of Battletech. And at any rate, that entire argument is silly, especially if you're such an ardent fan of MWO, seeing how it pulls all the 'mech weapons and loadouts straight from CBT itself. I constantly see threads "will MWO have Battlearmor?", "will MWO have tanks?", "will MWO have aerospace?". It's plain to see that people are wanting and expecting more than just 'mechs in this MechWarrior game.

Yeah? And I want a golden toilet for my home, even though that makes no sense to have whatsoever. Desires =/= reality.

Bloodycrow, on 02 May 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

And do you think this thread is the only place people talk about MWLL? It certainly has been canned for being a MOD, something I feel that is extremely undeserving, considering the quality and effort put behind it. In fact, you go on to claim that that MWO is expected to be better because...? Because it has financial backing? Because PGI is a paid development team? Because they've worked on previously published software? That certainly sounds like something you just said wasn't happening in this thread. :/

This thread =/= other threads. If you have grievances with what people say in other forums/threads, then perhaps you should voice those grievances there, and not here. PGI has access to better resources then the team that made MW:LL that's not canning MW:LL - that's a simple fact of MW:O. You can state the facts for one thing and not mean that you're putting down another thing - shocker I know.

Bloodycrow, on 02 May 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

I simply think it's unfair that the work the MWLL devs have done gets scoffed at, pushed aside and ridiculed by the self-proclaimed "true" and "hardcore" fans, especially now that MWO is in the pipe. I'm not saying MWLL has to be played and enjoyed. Not everyone likes every MechWarrior iteration. But noone should pretend that it doesn't exist or isn't important. It's arguable that MWO wouldn't be what it is today without the groundwork that the MWLL devs layed out before them.

And do you think this is the best time and place to voice your opinions to people who have neither pretended nor said that MWLL doesn't exist, nor that it is important? What are you trying to accomplish here? Are you hoping to garner sympathy from some random people on the internet, or are you just trying to vent your frustrations - no matter how relevant or irrelevant they may be to the current discussion?

AlfalphaCat, on 02 May 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

The argument that MWLL is made by 'amatuers' is rediculous for the simple fact that many of the original devs got jobs because the worked on MWLL.

What do you think Flying Debris was doing before he came to work for PGI?

By and large the team that made MW:LL where a group of amateur game developers, yes. As far as I know, Alex hadn't worked on a video game beforehand, although he had done work on one of the later BattleTech TROs (3085, I believe) before working on MW:LL. That's also aside from the fact that Alex was the exception to the rule. Also, getting a professional job after the fact of doing an amateur project still means that the project was by and large made my amateurs - no matter what they moved onto later.

I state again: I am not trashing MW:LL whatsoever - I am merely stating facts as I see them. Unless something goes horribly wrong in the development of MW:O, it will be better then MW:LL. And if you don't think so, then why are you here? To preach to the converted? Or to find fault with nothing?

Edited by pursang, 02 May 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[AlfalphaCat]

Ah, the sure sign that someone on the internets is just arguing for the sake of argument. Multi-Quotes!! Pay attention, boys and girls.

You are not stating facts. You are stating hypothoses.

Have you played MWLL? My guess is no. And if it is yes, you are just another QQer that got blown to bits by a Demolisher or Shiva one to many times to stick it out and learn the counters to such devestating assets.

One fact that you may not have considered, is that because MWLL is a Mod, it can do things that MWO may or may not be able to pull off.


THE UNSEEN!!

Will we see the Whammy in MWO? Who knows? It is a staple of MWLL though. And they are under no pressure to not release more of them because it is absolutely free. Not just F2P.

Also MWLL is not yet finished, but it is playable, and quite enjoyable to those that have the balls to deal with something other than just 'Mechs and two shot kill tanks that other iterations have employed. At least 5 developers now work for Crytek, a very major player in game developing, not just a 'whatever'. Yes, the very company that built the engine that your beloved MWO is being made with.

Facts as you see them are not facts, they are opinions, and we all got them. The mere fact that you are arguing is trashing, when you really know nothing about either product.

I believe the OP was asking if both will be viable upon the release of MWO. Sure MWLLs numbers may drop for a few weeks, but it will hardly die, that is if you knew anything about the community that actual supports it.

have fun out there kids...

Edited by AlfalphaCat, 03 May 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[Bloodycrow]

Yes, I WAS stating my frustrations, that's the very first thing I mentioned. This is obviously a thread about MWLL, on a board for MWO. I'm sorry if you don't think it's relevent to this thread. Quite frankly, I don't see how your responses to me are relevent to this thread.

In fact, you seem to be attacking me directly, and I have to wonder why. You seem to be like the group of people I previously mentioned; claim to be a diehard fan, yet unwilling to give MWLL any due. You insist that MWO can't possibly be worse than MWLL because of a handful of reasons that all point to it's a MOD. You're blindly accepting this as fact without having actually played it. This behaviour both boggles me and frustrates me.

Are you like, trying to defend MWO somehow? You don't have to defend it to me; like I said, I'm looking forward to the game too. I plan on playing both, because I enjoy MechWarrior just that much. But don't try to tell me that people on these boards, that this thread exists on haven't pretended MWLL doesn't exist and/or that it's not important. Don't mistake my small post count with community ignorance.

[Thorn Hallis]

I am amazed (from a technical point of view) what the developers of MWLL have created in their free time and with the resources available.

And I see no reason why both games could not coexist.

[Andar89]

hmm MW:LL made me read novels and redownload Mechwarrior 4 as I liked to know more about the BattleTech lore and Fluff.
So it made me impressed by the deep fluff people created, and a fan of the Clan, because I do not like the Houses^^

[Spooky]

Zakatak, on 02 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

..., using an engine that isn't suitable for simulating mechs.

Yet it is the best BattleTech Mech Simulator in MechWarrior style that ever existed, at least until MWO comes out .



I also love MWLL and I am excited about MWO as well.

Edited by Spooky, 03 May 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[Striker1980]

jesus, on 02 May 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Personally, the respawn mechanic turns me off of most current shooters, including mwll. You feel the weight of your actions a great deal more when a mistake means your match is over.

You hit the nail on the head for me with that one for me. More specifically, the whole method of spawning then jump jetting into the 'mech was very 'Mech assault-ish, it just didn't 'feel' right, I'm sure people have had a blast with MW:LL and long may they continue doing so but I'm really hoping the MWO has more of a 'sim' type feel and less of a battlefield/Modern warfare fps feel to it.

(Oh and supports my Joystick better, mechs + mouse and keyboard just kills mechwarrior for me).

-Striker.

[SirDenOfYork]

M.M.O., way to Go...

[Scar]

MWLL is the best free mod since Counter-Strike. And playing in MWLL is the best way to prepare yourself for MWO.

Neither TT/Megamek nor MW3/4 - only constant true PvP skirmishes with the pilots from the most successful and combat proven units, like ELH, KoS, CJW, and many of others. And i predict it - these untis will dominate in the MWO as well, so the only way to compete with them is to fight with them, or against them in MWLL.

Edited by Scar, 03 May 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[pursang]

Quote

Ah, the sure sign that someone on the internets is just arguing for the sake of argument. Multi-Quotes!! Pay attention, boys and girls.

As apposed to what you're doing? I wonder if you have you heard of a little thing called ad hominem? Because you are most assuredly a culprit of it right now. Allow me to educate you on the matter:

Quote

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.^[1] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy.^[2][3][4]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem

Does that sound familiar to you?

Quote

You are not stating facts. You are stating hypothoses.

I am, in fact stating facts and hypothesizing at the same time. If you would care to dispute the matter, then perhaps you can quote a specific example of me stating a hypothesis over a known fact? It shouldn't be hard for you, right?

Quote

Have you played MWLL? My guess is no. And if it is yes, you are just another QQer that got blown to bits by a Demolisher or Shiva one to many times to stick it out and learn the counters to such devestating assets.

As I have mentioned more then once in this thread, I have not played MW:LL - nor do I wish to play it. I do not need first-hand knowledge to use facts to come to a conclusion about a certain thing.

Quote

One fact that you may not have considered, is that because MWLL is a Mod, it can do things that MWO may or may not be able to pull off.



THE UNSEEN!!

Will we see the Whammy in MWO? Who knows? It is a staple of MWLL though. And they are under no pressure to not release more of them because it is absolutely free. Not just F2P.

Also MWLL is not yet finished, but it is playable, and quite enjoyable to those that have the balls to deal with something other than just 'Mechs and two shot kill tanks that other iterations have employed. At least 5 developers now work for Crytek, a very major player in game developing, not just a 'whatever'. Yes, the very company that built the engine that your beloved MWO is being made with.

Alright congratulations are in order for this straw-man argument. I do not care if MW:LL has the "unseen" in it, nor do I care that it is fully finished yet. That doesn't change the facts that I stated: That MW:LL is a mod and MW:O is a fully fledged F2P AAA game. You're comparing apples to oranges here and arguing things that I haven't even brought up. Also, I fail to see the point in you telling me that "at least 5 developers now work for CryTek" - what does that have to do with my argument? How does that change the fact that MW:LL is a mod (a good mod by all accounts) made by a team of amateurs? Has CryTek secretly bought MW:LL? No?

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Facts as you see them are not facts, they are opinions, and we all got them. The mere fact that you are arguing is trashing, when you really know nothing about either product.

I stated both fact and opinion, again you are more then welcome to quote me where you believe the facts that I had written where in (you believe) actuality opinion. For having played neither game, my knowledge is limited to what I can research and second-hand knowledge I will not argue that. To say however that "arguing is trashing" is most absurd in the extreme. We're both arguing with each other right now, does that mean that we're trashing each other? I don't think so.

Quote

I believe the OP was asking if both will be viable upon the release of MWO. Sure MWLLs numbers may drop for a few weeks, but it will hardly die, that is if you knew anything about the community that actual supports it.

I am quite aware what the OP said, as you should be aware that nowhere did I say that MW:LL "would die". That is a pure fabrication on your part.

Quote

have fun out there kids...

Oh, how mature of you, leaving such a snide remark at the end of your post smacks of childishness. I'm twenty-four years old - how old are you... grandpa?

Edited by pursang, 03 May 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[Spooky]

Striker1980, on 03 May 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

You hit the nail on the head for me with that one for me. More specifically, the whole method of spawning then jump jetting into the 'mech was very 'Mech assault-ish, it just didn't 'feel' right, I'm sure people have had a blast with MW:LL and long may they continue doing so but I'm really hoping the MWO has more of a 'sim' type feel and less of a battlefield/Modern warfare fps feel to it.

It's a BattleTech combined arms multiplayer game. How else would you envision it? And you can still have this "sim type feel" that you mean in MWLL in organized team matches (no respawn). MW:O's dropship mode won't feel that different probably. Except of course you only have Mechs there and you are awesomly dropped into the battle again on respawn (possibly).

And it wasn't any different from MW3 or MW4 multiplayer in the modes were you simply respawned.

Edited by Spooky, 03 May 2012 - 02:51 AM.

[pursang]

Quote

Yes, I WAS stating my frustrations, that's the very first thing I mentioned. This is obviously a thread about MWLL, on a board for MWO. I'm sorry if you don't think it's relevent to this thread. Quite frankly, I don't see how your responses to me are relevent to this thread.

Specifically this is a thread over whether MW:O can coexist with MW:LL - not about disagreements you may have with certain people who as far as I know, do not exist on these forums.

Quote

In fact, you seem to be attacking me directly, and I have to wonder why. You seem to be like the group of people I previously mentioned; claim to be a diehard fan, yet unwilling to give MWLL any due. You insist that MWO can't possibly be worse than MWLL because of a handful of reasons that all point to it's a MOD. You're blindly accepting this as fact without having actually played it. This behaviour both boggles me and frustrates me.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are wrong. No where have I "attacked you directly" I have merely tried to counter your argument with an argument of my own. Furthermore, I have never claimed to be a diehard fan - that would be an inccorrect charicature of myself. No where did I "insist that MWO can't possibly be worse then MWLL" I only stated that logic dicates that a team that has more resources at its disposal will in all likelyhood (but with no full certainty) creat a superior product then the team that had more limited resources, no?

Quote

Are you like, trying to defend MWO somehow? You don't have to defend it to me; like I said, I'm looking forward to the game too. I plan on playing both, because I enjoy MechWarrior just that much. But don't try to tell me that people on these boards, that this thread exists on haven't pretended MWLL doesn't exist and/or that it's not important. Don't mistake my small post count with community ignorance.

I am not so much defending MW:O as arguing the misconceptions surounding MW:O. You seem to have a habbit of inffering things that I have never written nor even alluded to for I have never told you that "people on these boards, that this thread exists on haven't pretended MWLL doesn't exist and/or that it's not important". I believe what I said was that I do not believe anyone in this thread had pretended that MW:LL doesn't exist or isn't important. Unless you can point me to an exact quote, I'm going to be waiting here in slight bemusement as you jump at aparent shadows.

I apologize for the double post, but I couldn't fit everything in one post unfortunately.

[Romeox]

You ****** can´t be real Mechwarriorfans without played MW:LL . So **** up, please ^^

I´ll play both games : D

Edited by Romeox, 03 May 2012 - 03:01 AM.