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Discussion: Autocannons


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#1 ShadowVFX

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:14 AM

Alright everyone, please keep this thread civil. I just want to have a discussion on the Autocannon and for people to discuss it civilly. Let's not throw out "QQ" or anything like that, alright?

I'll start by saying that I was taken by incredible surprise with this latest patch. I assume it has to do that there are a LOT of Cataphracts being used by the players at the moment. This is expected, as it's the newest mech and the current "flavor of the week". However, what I was not expecting was how fast I'm being dropped by AC fire (of all kinds).

I'm NOT claiming they need to be nerfed. Since I have been away from the game for almost a week, it's possible that my skills have atrophied, and it's simply a matter of me not playing effectively. However, I do have my opinions on the matter which I'd like to share here.

I feel that AC2's need to have their knock reduced. I felt they were too annoying even before the recent patch. Being hit by 2+ of these simultaneously makes returning fire difficult, if not impossible. 4 AC2's should have the same shuddering effect as 4 machine guns. Right now it feels like you're getting slammed by Gauss Rifles.

Personally, I liked the old unjamming mechanics MWO used for the Ultra AC5's. It felt more skill-based to require a pilot to manually do something to clear a jam, rather than just waiting a few seconds for magic gun gnomes to clear it for you. Removing the manual unjamming challenge of the UAC5 has made them incredibly ubiquitous on the battlefield. For a weapon that can repeatedly deliver 40 damage onto a target within 8 seconds, I think they need to introduce some kind of deterrent If they no longer require any effort to unjam (other than patience), I feel that they should have their automatic jam-clearing time increased to ~10 seconds. Or better yet, make the automated clearing process take a while (~15 seconds) and/or allow the pilot to manually clear the jam themselves, quicker, if they prefer.

So, that's my thoughts on the topic of AutoCannons currently in MWO. What are your experiences or thoughts on the topic?

Edited by ShadowVFX, 21 November 2012 - 09:17 AM.


#2 Doobles

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:20 AM

I'll keep my response short and sweet and it is a clear issue, when I face a 4x ballistic cataphract in 1on1 combat, I lose merely because I cannot keep a lock and the thing rips my torso to shreds in no time without me being able to see what I'm doing. The knock would make sense for AC/10 and 20 but anything less just seems a little overkill. I 100% agree with you there and the manual un-jamming would also give the person a much better chance to retaliate. Glad I'm not alone here.

Edited by Doobles, 21 November 2012 - 09:20 AM.


#3 Taryys

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:23 AM

I think AC2 rocking needs to be reduced too.

I like the new jamming method. It is more elegant.

#4 Aidan Malchor

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:26 AM

These have been like this for a long time, just more obvious now with quad ac's rocking out. There should be a scale for the rocking according to the weapon. Little bit for AC2 (though this would make them near completely useless), and wtf hit me for the AC20 (potential for OP but I think with the more limited ammo, and the cooldown it has, shouldn't be to bad).

I would like to see a more involved unjamming mechanism for the UAC5. I do like this one better then previous but some effort should come from the player. The weapon group shenanigans just made no sense for unjamming and could be done near instantly with the right keyboard.

#5 Purlana

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:28 AM

Seems wierd that an AC/2 would cause so much rocking, yet an AC/20 doesn't seem to effect me much.

I mean an AC/20 should be the same thing as getting hit by 10 AC/2s...

Right?

Edited by Purlana, 21 November 2012 - 09:29 AM.


#6 Apoc1138

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:29 AM

the problem with manual unjamming is that it isn't skill based, it's "have you got a macro mouse / keyboard" based
a random timer is fairer as it's random and lets face it, assuming a gun can reload / unjam itself, it would be automatic, but not gnomes as you refer to them, just an automated racking on the charging handle

if you feel the need to think in terms of gnomes instead of technology then maybe you've wandered in to the wrong game / forum

part of the balancing of the UAC5 will be on setting both the bandwidth and timings of the unjam based on live data

why is it that every time a weapon gets a boost or a nerf we automatically get umpteen threads of "omgz x weapon is now totally OP / pointless" (no question mark because it's a rhetorical question, I know exactly why and it makes we put my head in my hands at the futility of human nature)

#7 Jooky SeaCpt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:29 AM

I agree with the cockpit shake of AC2, and I think the devs are well aware of the problem. I disagree, however, with your statements regarding manual unjamming. The previous system was not skill based. It rewarded people who had macros by allowing them to essentially beat the system while at the same time punishing those who did not use them to a ridiculous degree. I know people who used macros to unjam their UAC5's, and it completely broke the system. On the other hand, I have tried the manual unjam mechanic, and I can tell you straight up that it was not possible to manually clear a jam while in combat.

The new system is much better because it treats all players the same. It may not be as immersive as having to manually clear, but at least it doesn't give a ridiculous advantage to a small segment of the player base.

#8 Jacmac

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:32 AM

View PostShadowVFX, on 21 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:


Personally, I liked the old unjamming mechanics MWO used for the Ultra AC5's. It felt more skill-based to require a pilot to manually do something to clear a jam, rather than just waiting a few seconds for magic gun gnomes to clear it for you.


Skill to press a macro button? Are you joking?

#9 Pendraco

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:32 AM

I think for a 6 ton weapon that only does 2 points of damage that they should at the very least be annoying. And at short range they are difficult to hit with.

I notice much more shake from an AC20 and gauss, it's just not as frequent so it's not as annoying.

#10 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:34 AM

At least without Double Heat Sinks, auto-cannons where generally always better than the high heat energy weapons. Gauss Rifle was just even better. But before the Cataphract came, there weren't enough mechs with solid ballistic slots. 3 Ballitstic slots in one torso are almost meaningless, but 4 spread across 2 sections much better weak.

With Double Heat Sinks, the balance has improved a bit. It still favours ACs and Gauss Rifles (and LRMs and SRMs), but it's much closer. If the DHS would work at +0.2 dissipation, the situation would be better. (Note, however, that Small Lasers and Medium Lasers do not suffer the weaknesses of most energy weapons. They are simply so light that they can compensate a lotof weaknesses with that. But LLs, ER LLs, PPCs, LPLs, MPLS and SPLs are all not that great by comparison.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 21 November 2012 - 09:34 AM.


#11 Barushkukor

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

Last night I saw 3 'Phracts, all AC2/AC5/UAC5 loaded, DECIMATE a 'Phract that was incoming in a matter of seconds. I have no desire to be on the receiving end of that kind of firepower...however...there is a valid place on the battlefield for it. Granted an Atlas or Awesome is going to have trouble running into that kind of massed ballistics but anything with maneuverability can get out of the way...speed is the antidote to AC fire.

As far as the screen shake goes, ya it sux lol. Hopefully they will be fine tuning this as we go along.

#12 Aidan Malchor

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

With the amount of AC's getting used now, I hope they don't get nerfed cause they are a fun weapon to use. Boating is always a problem with games like this and I'm sure what ever counterbalance for gets implemented(or not implemented) will cause people to complain about it.

#13 Reoh

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:40 AM

Cockpit shake should be related to damage done, favoring large single strikes over smaller continuous strikes. Thus a single AC20 strike would rock very hard while an LRM20 launched 2 missiles at a time would be somewhat insignificant. AC2's fire very fast resulting in their dps as only slightly behind an AC20 although it is more likely to be spread around than in a focused central area (I believe however that it is too short of a cooldown as the weapons were not that closely comparable in damage throughput. The LBX10 AC requires a toggle for using shotgun\standard ammunition. The Gauss, AC2, and AC5 are missing their minimum ranges. Other than that they seem fairly good where they're at.

I don't think the old UAC5 jam mechanic was very good as almost nobody understood how (I've explained it dozens of times) and is very easily macro'd making it effectively useless when someone can just tap a button and it was fixed. The new unjamming mechanic while less of a skill (or should I say arcane knowledge) factor and one more comfortably and intuitively understood. The duration of the jam may need to be adjusted based on an assessment of damage by the weapons collected from in game actual usage. I was never quite sure why UAC had a shorter cooldown fire rate than the regular AC5.

Edited by Reoh, 21 November 2012 - 09:42 AM.


#14 BDU Havoc

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:44 AM

IMO the AC2 is in a great place right now.

It doesn't do much damage, but it's irritating so is useful for LRM/Gausscat suppression and to make their lives miserable. It's an anti-sniper sniper.

Also, unlike the OMGZOPPWNXME Gausscats (sarcasm), their weapons are located in their arms. Take those out and you take out pretty much all of their weapons.

#15 Kai Lae

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:46 AM

View PostAidan Malchor, on 21 November 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

These have been like this for a long time, just more obvious now with quad ac's rocking out. There should be a scale for the rocking according to the weapon. Little bit for AC2 (though this would make them near completely useless), and wtf hit me for the AC20 (potential for OP but I think with the more limited ammo, and the cooldown it has, shouldn't be to bad).


Reducing knockback for an AC2 wouldn't make it useless. It's something of a sniper weapon (or is supposed to be) designed to engage at long ranges. See Jagermech or blackjack. As for AC20, I wonder what would happen if they put in like it is in tabletop. Getting hit by an AC20 in TT could force a piloting check to see if your mech wasn't literally knocked off it's feet due to the sudden loss of over a ton of armor. Wonder how much whining that would cause :)

#16 Leetskeet

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:47 AM

View PostShadowVFX, on 21 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Personally, I liked the old unjamming mechanics MWO used for the Ultra AC5's. It felt more skill-based


No, get out

#17 Ceribus

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:51 AM

I think the pilot should have to hit a key to initiate the unjam procedure... just 1 key so macro user would have no advantage but it make situational awareness important also yeah increase the unjam time to ~8 seconds

#18 Reoh

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:00 AM

View PostCeribus, on 21 November 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

I think the pilot should have to hit a key to initiate the unjam procedure... just 1 key so macro user would have no advantage but it make situational awareness important also yeah increase the unjam time to ~8 seconds


I think that's an acceptable compromise. The mechwarrior still has to pay attention, and there's no macroing issues involved in its execution. It can then still take a short duration to actually unjam.

[edit]

After hitting post it occurred to me, they can just macro the fire key to automatically hit the unjam after each shot.

Edited by Reoh, 21 November 2012 - 10:00 AM.


#19 Arithion

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:10 AM

I think AC/2s are where they need to be. They are directly in line, and frankly for some pilots they are even more powerful then Gauss/LRM/Lasers. The fact I have a 4 AC/2 Phract that does 16 damage a second, coring any mech within 5-10 seconds is amazing. If you don't like Phracts with AC/2s, shoot of their arms and be done with it. Your going to see this issue come up with the Jagger and Blackjack get put in as well.If you change the ACs too much your going to ruin those battlemechs. Might as well get use to AC/2s rocking you because they hit you that fast and much. The Devs already states AC/2s are perfect right now, AC/20s will be getting a heavy knock around effect as well. Go check the Command Chair thread, they already touched on Autocannons and their future.

#20 Purlana

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:12 AM

View PostArithion, on 21 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

AC/20s will be getting a heavy knock around effect as well.


Two AC/20 should knock a Jenner off it's feet. It's the same as getting hit by 20 AC/2s at the same time!

Edited by Purlana, 21 November 2012 - 10:13 AM.






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