289 replies to this topic

[random51]

Tarball, on 21 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

I'd love to try all your suggestions but i can't see my screen due to the blur and shake. Otherwise i'd happily give your suggestions a try.

A. you don't have to see your screen to run away.
B. If your screen is blurred and shaken that means the screens of the rest of your lance are not.
C. You can ID a target at much longer range than that of an SSRM2.

Seems like you need to worry more about learning the basics of mech combat than about the balance of SSRM2s.

Complaining that a streakcat has the advantage at his optimal engagement range when he has already targeted you and is hitting is ignorant. If your complaint was valid then the streakcat driver could make an equally valid complaint about how he is helpless to engage anything beyond 270m. Oh noes, nerf lasers, autocannons, gauss rifles, PPCS, and LRMs!

...and before trying to shrug this off as the opinion of a streak cat driver know that I don't have a catapult in my mechbay. I drove the streakcat when it truly was overpowered and mastered it EXP-wise in a single day.

What I AM concerned about is the viability of SSRM2s on every other platform. After the previous nerf streaks were useless and I pulled them off of everything I had them on and replaced them with SRM4-6, and changed the role of my scout-hunter to flanking direct fire support. I also found my viability vs. the jenner disappear entirely in any other light or medium. I don't want to go back there.

Edited by random51, 21 November 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Donnie Silveray]

My two pennies. I am very much amused and find it unduly hilarious how boatable the Cat is. Frankly it makes me angry as well, I often see GaussCats and StreakCats as dishonorable opponents because they don't use the Catapult to how I envison them to perform xP. But I digress, as many in the topic have pointed out the SCat is counterable. It's just that tiny mental stimuli in your brain that says "Cat! Must be LRM..." and then suddenly a Cat jumps into that trench with you on Forest Colony and starts filling you up with Streaks.

This is generally what makes pug battles rather difficult sometimes. A good drop of communicating players can scout those cats and ID their weapons and everyone would know. But in pugs they don't report armaments most of the time and it often ends up with some folk getting surprised and nommed by a hungry kitty kat. This is generally the problem I see in these kinds of games, being surprised by something you don't expect to be done. And the Cat is a pretty good example of a chassis that can surprise xP.

All in all really the best case I can imagine for the devs is to spread damage more (no skill remember?) while tightening up normal SRMs a bit to compensate. Damage seems fine to me, and then repairing the netcode to make everything else a viable tool over this weapon.

[One Medic Army]

TruePoindexter, on 21 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Your sights don't really shake just your view. Stay calm and keep your fire up. I've ruined Streak Cats in point blank combat as their DPS is mediocre for a close combat mech.

If both you and the streak cat are moving, then suddenly the shake matters, more so with smoke obscuring your view as well. I'm not a bad pilot, but with chain-fired streaks on me it's the best I can do to even hit a moving streak-cat (and they can move all they want, since nothing at all will spoil their aim)
If they're not shooting at me, then it's not a problem to ear them while they make life suck for someone else on my team, and if they're not chain-firing the missiles it's only mildly annoying.

random51, on 21 November 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

A. you don't have to see your screen to run away.
B. If your screen is blurred and shaken that means the screens of the rest of your lance are not.
C. You can ID a target at much longer range than that of an SSRM2.

Seems like you need to worry more about learning the basics of mech combat than about the balance of SSRM2s.

A. only works if you're faster than the Catapult is. Streak-cats spend very little tonnage on weapons and heatsinks, so they mov pretty darn fast. To run away you need to expose your back to them and beat them in a contest of pure speed.
Juking will slow you down, but not juking lets the rest of their team have potshots.
In other words this only works if you're in a very fast mech. In almost every medium or heavier mech the speed difference isn't enough to outweigh the fast that you can't shoot at them while running and are exposing your weak armor.

B. This is why Streak-cats aren't a problem when it's just one of them and I'm in a 4-man team.
No build is a problem when it's one of them vs a 4-man team.

C. If they're standing in the open. Only map this happens much on is caustic. All the other maps there's plenty of cover to use to close to effective range.

Edited by One Medic Army, 21 November 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[Nuclear Weapon]

JokerVictor, on 21 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

QQ QQ QQ

QQ QQ...

QQ QQ...

I agree...

[Mel Mad Dog Winters]

I think the ease of maintaining the lock once you have it is part of the problem. Even in one of my Jenners with my cockpit view moving like a roller coaster ride, it's fairly easy to maintain lock for perhaps five or more shots in a row.

In the board game, Battletech, the point was not so much that they always hit as much as the advantage was that they would not fire if you missed. Put simply, 'no wasted ammo'. So it was never an 'auto-hit' sort of deal. You could still 'miss' by not getting a lock, and the missiles wouldn't fire. It granted no advantage at all to getting a successful 'to-hit roll' and you had to roll each and every time same as the last.


We have one part of that mechanic already: the missiles won't fire if you don't have a lock.


My suggestion:
Make it easier and/or faster to lose the lock once your targeting reticule moves off of the target.

Somewhere between how it is now and the opposite extreme must be a happy balance where they retain enough of the current 'feel' and enough usefulness to justify them as a good choice.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

A lot of suggestions for dealing with Steak Cats assume the Streak Cat pilot is a copmlete id10ts and will stand still or run directly at you alpha shooting its SSRMs. Suggesting that just because using SRM streaks requires very little skill, that the pilot is skilless is a huge mistake.
Many Streak Cat pilots will move (making aiming more difficult for you), they will also change elevevation by jumping, this has two major effects 1) it makes them difficult to hit due to blur and JJ exhaust 2) it invokes the net code hit box issues. (it seems like adding that 3rd axis really confuses the server).
SSRM are light and cheap, which means that pilot has spare tonnage for max engine, max armor, ams, jump jets, BAP, etc
Steak Cat pilots don't travel alone, they like to stand near other high priority targets (Atlas, K2, Cataphract, Awesome)

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 21 November 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[CannonFodder86]

The streaks are good support weapons if you have one or two of them. The streak actually work better this way than they did in MW4 (instant fire, tracking, and no lockon), more akin to what they were in MW2. As we saw after the previous patch they become useless to everyone if you try to balance them in regard to only one mech. The Streakcat(like a Guasscat and LRMboat) takes the weapons to the extreme, maximizing one aspect of their loadout while skimping on everything else.

I suspect a lot of the outcry we're seeing on the forums are from Jenner pilots who were near unstoppable after the previous nerf to the SSRMs.They now provide a viable counter to the previously demi-godlike Jenners.

[Tarball]

random51, on 21 November 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

A. you don't have to see your screen to run away.
B. If your screen is blurred and shaken that means the screens of the rest of your lance are not.
C. You can ID a target at much longer range than that of an SSRM2.

Seems like you need to worry more about learning the basics of mech combat than about the balance of SSRM2s.

While I agree that I always need to improve my mech combat skills I just haven't seen it play out in the game the way you envision. All the maps we have in rotation allow you to close within 270m of the enemies without getting in line of sight.

And while I wish my lance mates would target the streaks it just doesn't happen all that often. I just can't understand the blur and shake mechanic from 2 missiles hitting me in the center torso. An LRM 20x2 volley doesn't disorient as much as a chain fire streaker.

Oh and did i mention you can't outrun them as it seems everyone puts big engines in the streak cats?

I just think the BLUR and Shake is a bit high for 2 missiles. I guess PGI could always add a flash bang type effect for people who use lasers and rake an enemy cockpit with a laser. But is that the type of game people want for mech warrior where who ever starts a stun lock first wins?

[MWHawke]

Dagger6T6, on 21 November 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

agreed the cockpit shake from srm 2 needs to be reduced alot

Have you fought against AC/2 or 5s?

[random51]

One Medic Army, on 21 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

If both you and the streak cat are moving, then suddenly the shake matters, more so with smoke obscuring your view as well. I'm not a bad pilot, but with chain-fired streaks on me it's the best I can do to even hit a moving streak-cat (and they can move all they want, since nothing at all will spoil their aim)

I don't see why they shouldn't have the advantage in this situation. Are you also advocating the nerfing of any other weapon that causes cockpit shake? The streakcat has you at his optimal engagement range and acquired target first, and fired first. Why shouldn't he win in this scenario if you can't or won't disengage? It is a trade-off for having such a limited engagement range.

You're wrong about the streakcat aim, btw. You can lose lock, particularly when you're being pressured and have to shift so that incoming fire hits a different section of your mech.

One Medic Army, on 21 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

A. only works if you're faster than the Catapult is. Streak-cats spend very little tonnage on weapons and heatsinks, so they mov pretty darn fast. To run away you need to expose your back to them and beat them in a contest of pure speed.
Juking will slow you down, but not juking lets the rest of their team have potshots.
In other words this only works if you're in a very fast mech. In almost every medium or heavier mech the speed difference isn't enough to outweigh the fast that you can't shoot at them while running and are exposing your weak armor.

If you're not faster than a streakcat why are you engaging one at his optimal range? Why didn't you pick him apart at longer range with just about any other weapon in the game?

One Medic Army, on 21 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

C. If they're standing in the open. Only map this happens much on is caustic. All the other maps there's plenty of cover to use to close to effective range.

What are you doing while they close to effective range, standing there discussing various species of swallows?

All of your counters seem to begin with giving the streakcat the initial advantage in terms of terrain and engagement range. Why are you doing that?

Now obviously there are times you have to get close to a streakcat, for instance when trying to stop a cap. The streakcat should have the advantage there, though, the mech is specifically built to have an advantage at that range.

Unless you're advocating that all mechs and all builds should have exactly the same capabilities at every range while requiring exactly the same amount of skill to play I don't really understand what you're getting at.

Different != imbalanced.
Specialized != imbalanced.

[Tarball]

MWHawke, on 21 November 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Have you fought against AC/2 or 5s?

Yes and quad ac/2s or 5s needs dialed back on the screen shake to. It's just as crazy as the streak cats, But i can't recall if there is screen blur with the ACs. I know there is big time blur and shake with the streaks.

[MWHawke]

JokerVictor, on 21 November 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

This is what I'm talking about about ruining the damn game.



That in particular. They are EVERYWHERE now, and they are cheap to build... so everyone that is less than stellar at the game is practically encouraged to build one.

Play against AC2/5 mechs.

[MWHawke]

Mel Mad Dog Winters, on 21 November 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

I think the ease of maintaining the lock once you have it is part of the problem. Even in one of my Jenners with my cockpit view moving like a roller coaster ride, it's fairly easy to maintain lock for perhaps five or more shots in a row.

In the board game, Battletech, the point was not so much that they always hit as much as the advantage was that they would not fire if you missed. Put simply, 'no wasted ammo'. So it was never an 'auto-hit' sort of deal. You could still 'miss' by not getting a lock, and the missiles wouldn't fire. It granted no advantage at all to getting a successful 'to-hit roll' and you had to roll each and every time same as the last.


We have one part of that mechanic already: the missiles won't fire if you don't have a lock.


My suggestion:
Make it easier and/or faster to lose the lock once your targeting reticule moves off of the target.

Somewhere between how it is now and the opposite extreme must be a happy balance where they retain enough of the current 'feel' and enough usefulness to justify them as a good choice.

JNRs that take on StreakCats = death.

[random51]

Tarball, on 21 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

While I agree that I always need to improve my mech combat skills I just haven't seen it play out in the game the way you envision. All the maps we have in rotation allow you to close within 270m of the enemies without getting in line of sight.

If there is no line of sight then how does the catapult know you are there in the first place?

Somebody had to have scouted you or you are attempting to hold a strategic position. In both cases you should expect to be engaged. If you don't have scouts and/or skirmishers whose fault is that?

Tarball, on 21 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

And while I wish my lance mates would target the streaks it just doesn't happen all that often.

Lack of teamwork sucks, I agree. I don't agree it is a valid reason to nerf anything.

Tarball, on 21 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

I just can't understand the blur and shake mechanic from 2 missiles hitting me in the center torso. An LRM 20x2 volley doesn't disorient as much as a chain fire streaker.

I don't like the disorientation from any of the shake weapons. If that is a reason to nerf it is a reason to nerf the shake/blur itself, not the weapons. Take the shake and the blur off of everything, I'd be happy.

Tarball, on 21 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Oh and did i mention you can't outrun them as it seems everyone puts big engines in the streak cats?

Not everyone. I know that for a fact. If they are using a big engine that means they made a trade-off of some type.

Tarball, on 21 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

I guess PGI could always add a flash bang type effect for people who use lasers and rake an enemy cockpit with a laser. But is that the type of game people want for mech warrior where who ever starts a stun lock first wins?

I agree 100%. I don't agree that this is an SSRM2 issue. It is an issue for autocannons as well. If you're going to tweak it, tweak it on EVERYTHING.

[MWHawke]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 21 November 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

A lot of suggestions for dealing with Steak Cats assume the Streak Cat pilot is a copmlete id10ts and will stand still or run directly at you alpha shooting its SSRMs. Suggesting that just because using SRM streaks requires very little skill, that the pilot is skilless is a huge mistake.
Many Streak Cat pilots will move (making aiming more difficult for you), they will also change elevevation by jumping, this has two major effects 1) it makes them difficult to hit due to blur and JJ exhaust 2) it invokes the net code hit box issues. (it seems like adding that 3rd axis really confuses the server).
SSRM are light and cheap, which means that pilot has spare tonnage for max engine, max armor, ams, jump jets, BAP, etc
Steak Cat pilots don't travel alone, they like to stand near other high priority targets (Atlas, K2, Cataphract, Awesome)

You are describing a smart pilot.

[Tarball]

random51, on 21 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I don't see why they shouldn't have the advantage in this situation. Are you also advocating the nerfing of any other weapon that causes cockpit shake? The streakcat has you at his optimal engagement range and acquired target first, and fired first. Why shouldn't he win in this scenario if you can't or won't disengage? It is a trade-off for having such a limited engagement range.

You're wrong about the streakcat aim, btw. You can lose lock, particularly when you're being pressured and have to shift so that incoming fire hits a different section of your mech.


If you're not faster than a streakcat why are you engaging one at his optimal range? Why didn't you pick him apart at longer range with just about any other weapon in the game?


What are you doing while they close to effective range, standing there discussing various species of swallows?

All of your counters seem to begin with giving the streakcat the initial advantage in terms of terrain and engagement range. Why are you doing that?

Now obviously there are times you have to get close to a streakcat, for instance when trying to stop a cap. The streakcat should have the advantage there, though, the mech is specifically built to have an advantage at that range.

Unless you're advocating that all mechs and all builds should have exactly the same capabilities at every range while requiring exactly the same amount of skill to play I don't really understand what you're getting at.

Different != imbalanced.
Specialized != imbalanced.

**well you addresed the shake while i was typing this below. It's the shake and blur that needs adjusted, not the damage of the weapon and that's what most peoples issue with streak cats are.


Well you didn't address what most people are talking about, which is the blur and screen shake. If you are fine with it, would you be ok if they added a dazzle blinding effect for lasers? So while you're in your streak cat each time i hit you with a laser your screen goes white and you can't see anything. If not then you really can't argue for the screen shake and blur from streaks.

I drive an atlas so i'm not trying to run away, get to cover or any of the tactics you've suggested. I'm just trying to read my screen to shoot at the bad guy. It's like trying play the game while running on a treadmill that's on a trampoline, just doesn't work.

Edited by Tarball, 21 November 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

random51, on 21 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

If you're not faster than a streakcat why are you engaging one at his optimal range? Why didn't you pick him apart at longer range with just about any other weapon in the game?

Think about that one for a second. "If you aren't faster than a streak cat, how did he get within 270" the correct answer is that the streak cat is faster than you, it gets to pick the range, not you.

I would like to point out that Steak Cats move at 78.5 (before speed tweak) and have jump jets. What mechs do you suggesting engaging a Streak Cat with that can outreach 270m and move faster than 78.5 in reverse. There a maybe a couple of mechs that can successfully kite a Streak Cat, and only if they are tailored to do so at the expense of all other functionality.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 21 November 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Hakkukakt]

but ... if this is a problem .. what is for the light coming on ninja style behind you .... hum => nerf because i cant see it huh that's OP ...

stop complaint ... game more ... and aquire experience and better knowledge on how to use perfectly your mech.

if you think i master my mech at 100% .. you are false ... i learn yet more and more i play ...

if you think it is easy to drive a streakcat and to dont be killed in 2 min on first contact ... then go on it and test it in a real fight with a real team ... and you will see that's not so easy to go and come back alive when you are oposed to a good fighter

[w0rm]

SicksGunz, on 21 November 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

It is stupid how much knock/blur streaks cause for how much damage they do.

Ever fought against AC2 Boats?

[Hakkukakt]

yes me i do ... and the shaking is ten more then a SSRM ^^ .... the UAC5 is worse too