247 replies to this topic

[Mike Silva]

My guess is that all equipment will be available via pay for dollars and pay for C-Bills. Given that a 'Mech chassis should be painfully expensive via C-Bills, it makes sense that it could be offered for real dollars if you don't have the time to grind away until you have the in-game money.

[Solis Obscuri]

"Packs" made me think of protomechs.

[Maxwell Ironquill]

I think that if the devs add something that can be purchased with dollars, they make it so that it can also be purchased with C-bills, or make it so that everything can only be bought with C-bills, but you can purchase those with real money; If 1 unit of free time is equivalent to 1 unit of money, then someone who has 100 of time and someone who has 100 of money should get the same amount of C-bills, and that would be the same as someone who has 60 of time and 40 of money.

Alternatively, if the devs decide to add some chasis as pay only, there should be another way of getting it, like a gift from someone else, or as a prize for the winer of a championship, etc.

It is ok to have different paths to reach the same goal, as long as no matter what path I choose, I can be sure that I can reach any goal.

On topic: I think it's better to have a mixed system for teh release of new mechs. Some mechs could be released as they are finished, but save some more special ones for a big release, with a lot of fanfare.

[Rejarial Galatan]

lets take a look at something. look at a chassis for say a studebaker, a rolls royce and say a 57 chevy, they are NOT the same chassis, saying mech chassis's are would akin to telling a worker at a rolls royce factory to just use a 57 chevy's chassis, its the same thing... no, they are not. a dire wolf chassis isnt a stone rhinos is it? or is a fire moth chassis the same as a raven? uh no. can we please all stop saying all chassis's in every weight class are the same as the others in each weight class?

[Mike Silva]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

lets take a look at something. look at a chassis for say a studebaker, a rolls royce and say a 57 chevy, they are NOT the same chassis, saying mech chassis's are would akin to telling a worker at a rolls royce factory to just use a 57 chevy's chassis, its the same thing... no, they are not. a dire wolf chassis isnt a stone rhinos is it? or is a fire moth chassis the same as a raven? uh no. can we please all stop saying all chassis's in every weight class are the same as the others in each weight class?

I've read this thread and I'm under the impression that you feel that if something is different that it is automatically better.

[Rejarial Galatan]

<sigh> silva silva silva, i am TRYING to convince the cup full crowd in the 'all chassis's in a weight class are the same' camp that no, they are NOT the same. I mean come on, you wouldnt try to say a Kodiak chassis is the same as a Stone Rhino chassis would you? they are shaped wildly different. While, yes, both are 100 tons, they are NOT the same mech chassis. I hope that gets you back onto the rails of what my post you quoted is getting at.

I mean come on, the chassis for a Kodiak is: Bergan Version 12.6 Endo Steel

the chassis for the Stone Rhino: Star League Monster

Dare you folks who STILL think all chassis's in a given weight class are the same to prove me wrong now.

edit: added direct chassis names for Kodiak and Stone Rhino

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 07 May 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[Mike Silva]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

<sigh> silva silva silva, i am TRYING to convince the cup full crowd in the 'all chassis's in a weight class are the same' camp that no, they are NOT the same. I mean come on, you wouldnt try to say a Kodiak chassis is the same as a Stone Rhino chassis would you? they are shaped wildly different. While, yes, both are 100 tons, they are NOT the same mech chassis. I hope that gets you back onto the rails of what my post you quoted is getting at.

You make some good points, but then undermine them by trying to support those points by comparing a Firemoth to a Raven. What was the one you used earlier? A Dire Wolf and a King Crab?

Your opposition isn't even disagreeing that these 'Mechs are different. They're simply attempting to make the point to you that many different 'Mechs at the same weight are measurably similar enough that any advantage that one might have over another is completely circumstantial at best.

Both sides are right to a degree, but throwing out the "pay2win" statement only makes your side seem more sensationalist and less reasonable.

[Rejarial Galatan]

ok now i am confused. you agree with me that chassis's are NOT the same in ANY weight class or are you trying to argue that they are? and as for P2W, putting weapons are mechs onto a MT system is how P2W starts, even if they CAN be bought in game, the greed of the easy button brigade would soon demand exclusives that can be real cash only attainable, and SOME companies, not saying PGI is one of them, tend to concede to the masses and start the reign of 'gold' weapons and what not. It is far easier to keep the store filled only with fluff to avoid the potential.

[Mike Silva]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

ok now i am confused. you agree with me that chassis's are NOT the same in ANY weight class or are you trying to argue that they are? and as for P2W, putting weapons are mechs onto a MT system is how P2W starts, even if they CAN be bought in game, the greed of the easy button brigade would soon demand exclusives that can be real cash only attainable, and SOME companies, not saying PGI is one of them, tend to concede to the masses and start the reign of 'gold' weapons and what not. It is far easier to keep the store filled only with fluff to avoid the potential.

I think you're arguing against a position that nobody is representing or suggesting. I don't think there's a single person in this thread that has recommended the equivalent of "gold" weapons that offer power advantages; I don't even think I've read anybody state that this could possibly even be a good idea.

I don't see what's so wrong with offering equipment in the real money store that can be acquired if you put in the time to earn it using whatever means available to you in the game. Offering shortcuts is a good way for the developers to make money; one that I personally am likely to take advantage of because I'm a real person with a full time job that likes to have time for other activities.

[Vollstrecker]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

<sigh> silva silva silva, i am TRYING to convince the cup full crowd in the 'all chassis's in a weight class are the same' camp that no, they are NOT the same. I mean come on, you wouldnt try to say a Kodiak chassis is the same as a Stone Rhino chassis would you? they are shaped wildly different. While, yes, both are 100 tons, they are NOT the same mech chassis. I hope that gets you back onto the rails of what my post you quoted is getting at.

I mean come on, the chassis for a Kodiak is: Bergan Version 12.6 Endo Steel

the chassis for the Stone Rhino: Star League Monster

Dare you folks who STILL think all chassis's in a given weight class are the same to prove me wrong now.

edit: added direct chassis names for Kodiak and Stone Rhino

What we're saying is that outside of the design's appearance and some hardpoint differences, there really isn't anything else different potentially from two same weight chassis with the same tech level that could not be replicated by another design.

It's when you can get something that is different in that it performs UNIQUELY in relation to other designs that it could be considered "Pay to Win". Take the 3025 Standard Clint and Hermes II. Nearly identical loadouts, except the hardpoints are in different locations. The Clint sacrifices armor for jump jets in relation to the Hermes II.

They're different, but (likely) able to replicate the other design via the Mechlab. That's a difference, not "Pay to Win."

[Rejarial Galatan]

ok, moving PAST the P2W since that is NOT what I just asked you, I shall ask you again. Do you or do you NOT agree, given what I have posted above, using Kodiak and Stone Rhino's as my example, with the Kodiak using the Bergan Version 12.6 Endo Steel chassis and the Stone Rhino using the Star League Monster chassis that, it is infact not true that ALL chassis's in the same weight class are NOT the same, and NOT just cosmetically different?

[Vollstrecker]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

ok, moving PAST the P2W since that is NOT what I just asked you, I shall ask you again. Do you or do you NOT agree, given what I have posted above, using Kodiak and Stone Rhino's as my example, with the Kodiak using the Bergan Version 12.6 Endo Steel chassis and the Stone Rhino using the Star League Monster chassis that, it is infact not true that ALL chassis's in the same weight class are NOT the same, and NOT just cosmetically different?

If the Star League Monster chassis is Standard (I think the Stone Rhino was a non-Endo design), then it's an obvious difference, which I actually did address in my previous post. Standard and Endo Steel are not the same Tech-Level. We're comparing Dire Wolves to King Crabs again.

[Mike Silva]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

ok, moving PAST the P2W since that is NOT what I just asked you, I shall ask you again. Do you or do you NOT agree, given what I have posted above, using Kodiak and Stone Rhino's as my example, with the Kodiak using the Bergan Version 12.6 Endo Steel chassis and the Stone Rhino using the Star League Monster chassis that, it is infact not true that ALL chassis's in the same weight class are NOT the same, and NOT just cosmetically different?

You edited your post after I responded to it *and* you're cherry-picking examples that do not discredit the idea that the people you're arguing against are presenting to you.

Yes, some 'Mechs are better than others, is that all you want to hear? That being true doesn't change the fact that many 'Mechs at the same weight offer very very similar levels of performance.

Edited by Mike Silva, 07 May 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

YOU Voll DID address it, BUT, silva keeps ignoring it. and, when I made my post, yours was not up yet, it had to come in as i was typing my post in slot 192. and any difference, however minute, makes identical impossible. while YES, you CAN, IF you have the hard points for it, DUPLICATE a loadout, but never make an EXACT copy from 2 differing chassis's.

[Aelos03]

Mike Silva, on 07 May 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

You edited your post after I responded to it *and* you're cherry-picking examples that do not discredit the idea that the people you're arguing against are presenting to you.

Yes, some 'Mechs are better than others, is that all you want to hear? That being true doesn't change the fact that many 'Mechs at the same weight offer very very similar levels of performance.

so what if they are similar ? that doesn't mean its allowed to be only buy-able with mechwarrior credits ...

[Mike Silva]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

YOU Voll DID address it, BUT, silva keeps ignoring it. and, when I made my post, yours was not up yet, it had to come in as i was typing my post in slot 192. and any difference, however minute, makes identical impossible. while YES, you CAN, IF you have the hard points for it, DUPLICATE a loadout, but never make an EXACT copy from 2 differing chassis's.

I'm not ignoring anything. What you're doing is editing posts after people respond to them..... and then claiming the other guy is ignoring you. Not cool.

*edit* based on time stamps you got your edit in before I made my post. But since I can't type 400 words per minute my statement still stands.

Edited by Mike Silva, 07 May 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[Vollstrecker]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

YOU Voll DID address it, BUT, silva keeps ignoring it. and, when I made my post, yours was not up yet, it had to come in as i was typing my post in slot 192. and any difference, however minute, makes identical impossible. while YES, you CAN, IF you have the hard points for it, DUPLICATE a loadout, but never make an EXACT copy from 2 differing chassis's.

So you would say that different weapons hardpoint locations would constitute "Pay to Win" then?

[Rejarial Galatan]

Silva, please listen carefully. The cherry picking you seem soo fond of accusing me of, is me choosing mechs of the same factional alliance, in this case Clan, choosing 2 100 TON ASSAULT mechs, and then listing the chassis each uses. IF you want me to pick say 2 marauders and then try to make my argument, then, YES, BOTH in THAT case are bloody identical, because they are the SAME BLOODY MECH. an apple is NOT an orange, which is NOT a pear, which is NOT a grapefruit which is NOT a pumpkin. While, I am NOT arguing that one mech is better than the other, I AM arguing that NO 2 CHASSIS's UNLESS taken from the SAME mech under DIFFERING variants are NOT the same. Its like saying a Camaro is a Mustang

[Aelos03]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Silva, please listen carefully. The cherry picking you seem soo fond of accusing me of, is me choosing mechs of the same factional alliance, in this case Clan, choosing 2 100 TON ASSAULT mechs, and then listing the chassis each uses. IF you want me to pick say 2 marauders and then try to make my argument, then, YES, BOTH in THAT case are bloody identical, because they are the SAME BLOODY MECH. an apple is NOT an orange, which is NOT a pear, which is NOT a grapefruit which is NOT a pumpkin. While, I am NOT arguing that one mech is better than the other, I AM arguing that NO 2 CHASSIS's UNLESS taken from the SAME mech under DIFFERING variants are NOT the same. Its like saying a Camaro is a Mustang

well you had to draw for them

[Mike Silva]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 May 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Silva, please listen carefully. The cherry picking you seem soo fond of accusing me of, is me choosing mechs of the same factional alliance, in this case Clan, choosing 2 100 TON ASSAULT mechs, and then listing the chassis each uses. IF you want me to pick say 2 marauders and then try to make my argument, then, YES, BOTH in THAT case are bloody identical, because they are the SAME BLOODY MECH. an apple is NOT an orange, which is NOT a pear, which is NOT a grapefruit which is NOT a pumpkin. While, I am NOT arguing that one mech is better than the other, I AM arguing that NO 2 CHASSIS's UNLESS taken from the SAME mech under DIFFERING variants are NOT the same. Its like saying a Camaro is a Mustang

Opening a post with "please listen carefully" pretty much guarantees that I'm not going to read another thing you have to post, thus decreasing your influence on these forums and damaging your ability to convince others that whatever point it is you're making is a correct one.

Have a nice evening.