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Role Devfare


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#1 Undead Bane

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:20 PM

*WALLOFTEXTMODE=ON*
Ok, with all these posts (and even topics) about how PGI should stop making camos/bobleheads/*insert your varian here* I finally decided to try to explain people, what the development team consists of, which roles each part of team normally has and why the bobbleheads have nothing to do with, say, ***** "webcode".

Here is our dev lance team:
  • Executive staff - these people may not even know, how to start a game. What they must know is overal strategy, which they build basing on info they get from different departments - how to sell, what to sell, how to distribute (limited) resources the team has, how to "grease the wheels" etc.
  • Financial department - and they are actually counting M0NEYZ. How much to pay to employes this month, how much should go to taxes, how much the advertisment will cost and so on and so on.
  • PR department - speaking of advertisment. These people actually find the ways to tell people about the products, how to show better parts of it, when to do it and, well, HOW.
  • Game design department - "this gun should make a big hole, and this one should just be annoying. Oh, and if there is a hole, a *insert very bad thing here* should happen" - that is what this department is about. They actually develop the overal mechanics of how the objects (hm, mechs, for example) should interact and what should be the result; should DPS of this particular weapon be 12.1 or 12.2, should the atlas make haka dance before death, so that everyone could see him dying in rage and so on. Well, I think you got it.
  • Graphical design department - these people make all what we see in the game the way we like it (or not). Sometimes, artists and 3d designers form different departments, but for simplicity I just put them all in one. Also, everybody here does sometimes the tasks together - when, say, we need a nice mech render on the webpage. Oh, and stuff like bobbleheads, camos, skins - they all come out from here.
    • Mech design staff - sketch a mech, draw a mech, model a mech, texture a mech, kick 3d programmer's butts, because shaders are not working properly or get kicked by 3d programmers, as what they want to achieve is not available at current tech level - these guys love all this stuff. And we actually ride the product of their love every day. Oh, and animations too - someone should animate that haka dance, doesn't he?
    • Map design staff - a hill or a mountain? A rock or a tree? Maybe a half-destroyed dropship with burnt mech inside (btw, spoiler)? These people give birth to all these ideas and even more. They try to make the maps look good and immersive. Also, they work in tight cooperation with game designers - we don't want our maps being "LRM ONLY" party, right?
    • Web page design staff - css is the best friend of these guys. They actually make the place we all whine at look pretty and nice.
  • Programming department - these people make the game to be a game. Coding day and night, sometimes even just for food and nothing more.
    • 3d/2d programming staff - well, whatever the designers had drawn, it won't be seen without these guys. C++, glApi and dxApi, shaders and matrices - they have their hands full with it.
    • Database programming staff - SQL. Stored procedures. Selects and updates. Base consistency. Can you live with all these words? Well, they actually do live and make so that your precious xp/cbills levels are stored and updated properly.
    • "Netcode" programming staff - clien-server interactions, buffer encoding, sockets, pipes, schemes, syncs, "OMG, we miss ONE BYTE here!" - all this stuff is these guy's life. In order for client and server to "talk" to each other in a proper way they, sometimes, do not sleep.
    • Internal game logics/math/AI programming staff (not related to 3d) - calculate balistics trajectory, so that it would fall, calculate damage to your mech, calculate... well, lots, lots of calculations. And all of them are implemented by these guys.
    • Security code programming staff - DIE HAX0RZ! Authentication and identification, signing and encryption and also lots of math. Who said, that it is easy to fight HAX0RZ? However, sometimes there is no such thing as a distinct group of programmers, doing only this, so these responsibilities are distributed between the above programmer's groups.
  • Testing department - well, sometimes these guys are not even employed in the company. They are all responsible for catching bad bugs indoors and not letting them out. Unfortunately, they are not supermen, so they cannot catch everything. Oh, and by the way, they also test if what has been actually implemented works as the game designers want it to be. So, basically, it's a hell of a job. So, before blaming them, go and try to find a bug in, say ATM. You found one? Congrats! You are fit to be in this department!
  • Admins and network engineers - these guys actually make so that everybody else could even work. You need some real stuff to run the code at, to draw the designs with, to watch p... Well, for all the tasks you need networks, computers, servers, and they set them all up. Normally, you'll see these guys drinking coffee - then you know, everything is all right. But IF you happen to see them running, well, you may not like the result.
  • Sound producing department - these people actually make the sounds, that we all love. What is an immersion without sounds? Nothing! So, they spend their time doing weird stuff (like, say, mixing sound of hammer hitting a metal plate and kitten's meows) so that the game would be realistic not only for our eyes, but also for our ears.
  • Service personell - do they even have anything to do with the game? Of course! If an important appointment would be missed, or noone talks to angry investor, or noone answers an important call, or (OMG!) Garth won't have his coffe nothing good will come out of it. So never underestimate the role of these people!

*this list is just an assumption of how it can be, but it should give you an understanding, what a complex organism the development studio is*
*WALLOFTEXTMODE=OFF*

So, after reading the wall of text, do you still want to ask the designers to go and implement socket interaction , or netcode programmers to rebalance a weapon? Or, maybe, PR guys to make new sounds? I really hope, that not. If you still do... Well, I have very bad news for you.

Edited by Undead Bane, 28 November 2012 - 05:58 AM.


#2 stjobe

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

Well written, I smiled a few times in recognition. Also, very very true and hopefully an eye-opener for some people.

Edited by stjobe, 27 November 2012 - 03:27 PM.


#3 Texas Merc

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:31 PM

I signed in only to Like this post.


*thumbs up*

#4 Undead Bane

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

View Poststjobe, on 27 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Well written, I smiled a few times in recognition. Also, very very true and hopefully an eye-opener for some people.

View PostTexas Merc, on 27 November 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

I signed in only to Like this post.


*thumbs up*

Thank you! I tried to make not too boring as hard as I can.

#5 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

this is hilarious, no one needs to know the roles to understand crappy net code, they experience it every time they play. It's funny to watch responses like this to serious criticism about the game like the net code issue. Think back, net code was poor in closed beta, and seems pretty bad in open beta. Every patch either seems to screw it over or slightly improve it. I don't need to know who does what on their team, all I know is that their net code is broken, and they don't seem interested in fixing. If they were really interested there would be a note or two in the patch notes: "sry gaiz but the net code still has us buggered." Just saying that is usually enough to calm people down, but PGI naively thinks that the 'strong and silent' type is good PR. It's only good PR when people have proof that one is strong to justify the silence, and I don't believe PGI has that track record.

case in point: if the net code for my client was bad, and I knew it was bad, even if my team was having a hard time fixing it, there would still be a note or two in the weekly meetings with the client saying yes we are aware. Then the problem would be fixed by us in a decent amount of time.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 27 November 2012 - 03:38 PM.


#6 xRaeder

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

This might be true. But... modders have made a better game in the same amount of time w/ no money.

So while educational it still doesn't negate that.

#7 Undead Bane

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostAaron DeChavilier, on 27 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

this is hilarious, no one needs to know the roles to understand crappy net code, they experience it every time they play. It's funny to watch responses like this to serious criticism about the game like the net code issue. Think back, net code was poor in closed beta, and seems pretty bad in open beta. Every patch either seems to screw it over or slightly improve it. I don't need to know who does what on their team, all I know is that their net code is broken, and they don't seem interested in fixing. If they were really interested there would be a note or two in the patch notes: "sry gaiz but the net code still has us buggered." Just saying that is usually enough to calm people down, but PGI naively thinks that the 'strong and silent' type is good PR. It's only good PR when people have proof that one is strong to justify the silence, and I don't believe PGI has that track record.


Well, did I ever say that netcode is good (actually, it may even be not bad, it's more likely conceptual flaw)? I just want you (and the likes) to understand, that netcode is responsibility of a part of the team. And only this particular part of the team can fix it.
So, when people declare things like "SOTP MAkIN BOBLEHEADZ, FIX DA NETC0DE!!!!!!1111oneone" - they are just being ignorant and I want that ignorance to go away a bit. Designers have nothing to do with netcode, they may not even know C. Should they stop working then?

And believe me, PGI is working on the netcode. It is just hellishly hard to fix, but they will do it eventually.

#8 stjobe

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:45 PM

View PostAaron DeChavilier, on 27 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

If they were really interested there would be a note or two in the patch notes: "sry gaiz but the net code still has us buggered."

How about you read the patch notes?

Quote

Lastly, I want to let everyone know we are working on networking, performance, and bug fixes. This is the heart of any great game and we are committed to getting the best experience we can for our players. Some things take longer to turn around.

Or the latest Command Chair, Net Code Roadmap?

Finally, nobody's saying the netcode isn't bad, what the OP is commenting on is the sheer stupidity of people saying everyone in PGI should stop doing anything but work on netcode. It just doesn't work that way in the real world - the only ones qualified and competent to work on the netcode are the netcode programmers.

Edited by stjobe, 27 November 2012 - 03:45 PM.


#9 Undead Bane

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

View PostxRaeder, on 27 November 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

This might be true. But... modders have made a better game in the same amount of time w/ no money.

So while educational it still doesn't negate that.

Modders.
This means these guys have nothing to do with
a) 3d/2d programming - it was all actually made for them
:) netcode - they just used whatever the game gave them

Also, the ones we are (supposedly) talking about made ****** animations, bad balance, questionable mechanics, etc.

For a mod that mod is good. For a game - it is worse than MWO now with all the programming bugs.

#10 Pyrrho

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:50 PM

View PostUndead Bane, on 27 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

And believe me, PGI is working on the netcode. It is just hellishly hard to fix, but they will do it eventually.


I understand the devilishness of it all, but my Dial-Up LAN Doom games in the 90s had this down better. Also, I do understand the difference between getting to the moon and getting to the moon in style. I don't mind waiting for the fixes as long as I get to stomp robots and espouse robot-stomping tactics :)

#11 OneManWar

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

View PostAaron DeChavilier, on 27 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

this is hilarious, no one needs to know the roles to understand crappy net code, they experience it every time they play. It's funny to watch responses like this to serious criticism about the game like the net code issue. Think back, net code was poor in closed beta, and seems pretty bad in open beta. Every patch either seems to screw it over or slightly improve it. I don't need to know who does what on their team, all I know is that their net code is broken, and they don't seem interested in fixing. If they were really interested there would be a note or two in the patch notes: "sry gaiz but the net code still has us buggered." Just saying that is usually enough to calm people down, but PGI naively thinks that the 'strong and silent' type is good PR. It's only good PR when people have proof that one is strong to justify the silence, and I don't believe PGI has that track record.

case in point: if the net code for my client was bad, and I knew it was bad, even if my team was having a hard time fixing it, there would still be a note or two in the weekly meetings with the client saying yes we are aware. Then the problem would be fixed by us in a decent amount of time.


DIRECTLY FROM THE PATCH NOTES YOU ILLITERATE JOBBER:

"Lastly, I want to let everyone know we are working on networking, performance, and bug fixes. This is the heart of any great game and we are committed to getting the best experience we can for our players. Some things take longer to turn around."

#12 xRaeder

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:53 PM

View PostUndead Bane, on 27 November 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Modders.
This means these guys have nothing to do with
a) 3d/2d programming - it was all actually made for them
:) netcode - they just used whatever the game gave them

Also, the ones we are (supposedly) talking about made ****** animations, bad balance, questionable mechanics, etc.

For a mod that mod is good. For a game - it is worse than MWO now with all the programming bugs.


From a game perspective MW:LL is a far better game. Simply the fact that it allows for server browsers makes it so.

PGI could have also used a lot of the stock options that came with the SDK... but they chose to reinvent the wheel and make a still buggy/frustrating matchmaking system from scratch (ie, wasted dev time). Now they are having to deal with all sorts of bad feedback regarding premades and are taking the cheap and dangerous way out by segregating the community. Instead they should have put that decision into the players hands by giving them a choice as to where to play. Facing a premade and unbalanced teams? Leave the server.

It would have been much easier if they had used the built in stuff for a lot of this and customized as needed.

You say that it was unbalanced. Well look at this game. LRMs were OP at one point. So were laser boats (remember the Awesome with like a bazillion lasers?). So are streaks (which have been continually rebalanced and are getting another nerf sometime soon). What is your point?

Stock Crysis 2 MP mechanics are better than what we have now. What we have now results in two teams being able to completely miss eachother and not fire a shot and still someone wins.

Edited by xRaeder, 27 November 2012 - 04:12 PM.


#13 Khavi Vetali

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

View PostAaron DeChavilier, on 27 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

If they were really interested there would be a note or two in the patch notes: "sry gaiz but the net code still has us buggered." Just saying that is usually enough to calm people down, but PGI naively thinks that the 'strong and silent' type is good PR. It's only good PR when people have proof that one is strong to justify the silence, and I don't believe PGI has that track record.


OH! YOU MUST MEAN.....something like this...

http://mwomercs.com/...t-code-roadmap/

Where it's stated that they are rebuilding the net-code from the base up. HMMMM. Wonder what's taking so long.

#14 superbob

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

As I've guessed before - focusing on mostly cosmetic items for the near feature means that programmers will spend most of their time fixing bugs.

It's pretty much plastered all over dev responses on the forums - they are constantly working on fixing things. They cannot, however, provide accurate feedback on what they're fixing at the moment or even estimates to post next to the planned features/content list - this stuff is too volatile to put down.

Instead we have their feature and content roadmaps, which appear to leave the programmers a lot of room in the schedule for bug hunting.

#15 OneManWar

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:13 PM

View PostxRaeder, on 27 November 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:


From a game perspective MW:LL is a far better game. Simply the fact that it allows for server browsers makes it so.


Just for the record, MW:LL has been in development for over FOUR years. MWO has been in development for a bit over one. See the difference?

Go play MW:LL if you love it so much then, oh right! All those servers you can browse are EMPTY.

#16 Undead Bane

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:15 PM

View PostxRaeder, on 27 November 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:


From a game perspective MW:LL is a far better game. Simply the fact that it allows for server browsers makes it so.

PGI could have also used a lot of the stock options that came with the SDK... but they chose to reinvent the wheel and make a still buggy/frustrating matchmaking system from scratch (ie, wasted dev time). Now they are having to deal with all sorts of bad feedback regarding premades and are taking the cheap and dangerous way out by segregating the community. Instead they should have put that decision into the players hands by giving them a choice as to where to play. Facing a premade and unbalanced teams? Leave the server.

It would have been much easier if they had used the built in stuff for a lot of this and customized as needed.

You say that it was unbalanced. Well look at this game. LRMs were OP at one point. So were laser boats (remember the Awesome with like a bazillion lasers?). So are streaks (which have been continually rebalanced and are getting another nerf sometime soon). What is your point?

Stock Crysis 3 MP mechanics are better than what we have now. What we have now results in two teams being able to completely miss eachother and not fire a shot and still someone wins.

Crysis MP mechanics is, unfortunately, not suitable for the tasks this game has like community warfare. So they, basically, had no choice but to "reinvent the wheel".
I will write a post with comparison, but that will be later.

#17 xRaeder

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:17 PM

View PostOneManWar, on 27 November 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:


Just for the record, MW:LL has been in development for over FOUR years. MWO has been in development for a bit over one. See the difference?

Go play MW:LL if you love it so much then, oh right! All those servers you can browse are EMPTY.


And perhaps I should have been more specific. MW:LL's open beta in 2009 was a better game.

MW:LL servers are probably empty because a lot of people are here.

Everyone needs to admit to themselves that if the modders had been given the money to start a studio like PGI has been given (by us and by investers) their game would be lightyears ahead of what we have now.

#18 Zanathan

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:17 PM

You forgot to mention the system admins/platform engineers who build the infrastructure, install the OS, perform deployments, monitor the servers 24x7 (or that may even be another operations team but given PGI's size I doubt it), monitor capacity, etc.

Then there are network engineers who actually build and manage the networking side, switches, VLANs, network capacity, etc.

#19 xRaeder

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:18 PM

View PostUndead Bane, on 27 November 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Crysis MP mechanics is, unfortunately, not suitable for the tasks this game has like community warfare. So they, basically, had no choice but to "reinvent the wheel".
I will write a post with comparison, but that will be later.


How is drop in matchmaking going to fit in different with a meta game than server browsers? Your rationale doesn't make sense since you can have faction servers... where one side is always DCMS, or FedCom or whatever and they get a new challenger every week.

#20 Undead Bane

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostZanathan, on 27 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

You forgot to mention the system admins/platform engineers who build the infrastructure, install the OS, perform deployments, monitor the servers 24x7 (or that may even be another operations team but given PGI's size I doubt it), monitor capacity, etc.

Then there are network engineers who actually build and manage the networking side, switches, VLANs, network capacity, etc.

Sorry admins and network engineers =) Will put them in shortly =)





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