296 replies to this topic

[Biruke]

Fate 6, on 27 November 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Last I checked none of the vehicles in BF3 had the ability to not have missile lock on to them. They have flares (ACM) and systems which make it take longer to lock on, but nothing as severe as this ECM.

smoke + ecm do it, they prevent missiles form locking. it could be done with the mechs too. with the necessity to reload.

[Roland]

Fate 6, on 27 November 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Are we reading the same thing? Because I clearly read that ECM will make Tag lasers do nothing.

Ya, you're misunderstanding. You should read it again. Specifically:
"If you are not being disrupted by an enemy ECM, any hidden Mech on the other team that you hit with a TAG laser will be revealed as if it wasn’t being hidden. This allows you and your teammates to target and lock on it for as long as you can keep the TAG beam trained on it."

See, if you are inside the ECM bubble, then your tag laser won't work.

But the tag laser has a longer range than ECM... So, for instance, I can run around far away from the ECM mech, and target it with my tag laser (or the other mechs he is shielding). Then you, in your fire support, can lock him up and fire missiles at him. And then blamo.

[Biruke]

and if NARC works, you can send out scouts to plant beacons on the targets.

[Joe Mallad]

You know what's going to happen... We will start seeing full teams of mech with ECM. And this is going to completely allow them to roll over any other team that tries to use any type of missiles and will allow a full team to run one side of the map virtually undetectable on radar because as long as hey don't get within 200 meters, then enemy mech can't see you on radar so that means no target locking either. ECM is going to be way OP.they have messed with it too much and are allowing it to do things it shouldn't.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 27 November 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[New Breed]

I personally wont give them one more cent if jenners get ECM

[Fate 6]

Roland, on 27 November 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

I already explained how it doesn't even approach making LRM's unusable.

And frankly, almost every mech I run that has missile hardpoints runs streaks... Of course, I don't run ONLY streaks.

With ECM, streaks will work perfectly fine.. you'll just have to account for times when they are negated. You won't be able to put all your eggs in the "easy basket". Or, at least, you will have to have members of your team support you and deal with the ECM issue.


ECM as proposed is not going to even approach "ruining missiles". If anything, it'll make missile based fire support a much deeper and more interesting game. Tag suddenly has an actual use. Mechs will be able to spot targets without automatically being seen by the mechs they are spotting. You'll still be able to provide fire support for your team.

The sensor game is just going to be much more complex than it was previously.. which is to say, the sensor game will actually exist, whereas previously there was no sensor model.

Streaks will no longer work against the mechs they were designed to fight. I say that as a blanket statement because significantly more than half the lights encountered in the game are Jenner-Ds. There will be the odd Raven too, I'm sure. But there is a difference between strategics and just plain having to give up combat because your weapon system DOES NOT WORK.

The sensor game and LRMs will be more interesting? You clearly don't use LRMs very often, because they are not easy to use as is. You already need a spotter. Now you will have to rely on spotter with ECM. That's very specific, and means not only is my whole build's usability in a game a die roll, but trial mech light pilots can't do their job. Maintaining a missile lock halfway across a map is already a minigame within the game. If you didn't notice, LRMs had to get buffed this patch because they were already lacking. And this isn't even taking into account that people can just hear "incoming missiles" and walk behind a small building/hill.

As you said, there was no sensor warfare before. But that doesn't mean putting in this ECM is good. There is an in-between. I want ECM, but not this.

Biruke, on 27 November 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

smoke + ecm do it, they prevent missiles form locking. it could be done with the mechs too. with the necessity to reload.

Smoke is nowhere near the same. The smoke is in a static location, meaning if you want to prevent missile locks you have to stay still. The smoke also is a deployable and has a cooldown meaning you have to both actively engage it and you don't have it available all the time.

[Roland]

Quote

The sensor game and LRMs will be more interesting? You clearly don't use LRMs very often, because they are not easy to use as is. You already need a spotter. Now you will have to rely on spotter with ECM.

Again, dude.. you need to read the post on ECM in more detail. You are missing critical aspects of it.

Anyone who shoots a tag laser at a mech hidden by ECM reveals it, which will allow you to target it with missiles.

I explained this in greater detail in the prior post.

[Dr Killinger]

All you need is a friend with ECM set to countermeasures. Yay teamwork.

Suffer, Streakcats.

[Joe Mallad]

Well... I normally don't use a lot of missiles and or mech that are missile boats. With how it seems ECM is going to make life difficult for the missile guys... This just pushes me more toward not using any type of missiles and saving the weight for other stuff.

[Solis Obscuri]

n3um3th0d, on 27 November 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

How do you know it is OP? Last I checked, there wasn't a magic server where you could play with unimplemented features...

My biggest concern is that while other T2 tech like Artemis, BAP, NARC, TAG, Gauss Rifles, etc. offer strong advantages, they can generally be countered with T1 designs through good use of terrain and good team tactics (arguably some team combinations of BAP and Artemis may not; I still need to examine that further), from the description of ECM, it sounds like the opposing team will have no indirect fire and no information warfare capabilities unless they are making extensive use of ECM and TAG, both of which are expensive T2 systems that are only available stock on one extremely expensive scout 'mech at this time.

If ECM just negated the other T2 LRM targeting gear and BAP bonuses with one convenient 1.5 ton component, plus maybe reduced sensor range or lock time a little bit, it would be reasonably balanced; however, it's going to be damn difficult to counter even a disorganized enemy team of PUGs if they're mostly running ECM-equipped 'mechs that are nearly invisible to sensors and mostly invulnerable to guided missiles.

If the system functions as described, I can see "flocks" of ECM-equipped lights being extremely hard to survive, and groups of heavy/assault sniper builds "turtling" under an ECM unbrella being nearly impossible to engage at all.

[Fate 6]

Roland, on 27 November 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Ya, you're misunderstanding. You should read it again. Specifically:
"If you are not being disrupted by an enemy ECM, any hidden Mech on the other team that you hit with a TAG laser will be revealed as if it wasn’t being hidden. This allows you and your teammates to target and lock on it for as long as you can keep the TAG beam trained on it."

See, if you are inside the ECM bubble, then your tag laser won't work.

But the tag laser has a longer range than ECM... So, for instance, I can run around far away from the ECM mech, and target it with my tag laser (or the other mechs he is shielding). Then you, in your fire support, can lock him up and fire missiles at him. And then blamo.

You're right, I hadn't read into that part correctly. However, this still assumes you can maintain line-of-sight AND hit the target for long enough for the LRMs to reach their target. The TAG range is ok, but you will be in range of pretty much every laser and ballistic on the enemy team while you are tagging the enemy. You will die before your team can put much of a dent in them.

So there is a double gamble here. Missile mechs are gambling on lights which also have TAG (and ECM will probably also be needed), and lights with these measures are praying that the tonnage will actually be put to use.

Teamwork or not, ECM is too strong.

Dr Killinger, on 27 November 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

All you need is a friend with ECM set to countermeasures. Yay teamwork.

Suffer, Streakcats.

Sorry, I thought I was allowed to launch into the game by myself and not be cripplingly handicapped.

EDIT: I think what people are missing is that, while it's good to make people think and come up with a strategy to counter their enemy, ECM has no counter once you are in game. If you do not have TAG and/or ECM on your team, you can not do anything with your guided missiles. That is the problem. There is no counter-strategy. If there was a more sophisticated matchmaking system maybe this would be less of an issue, but as it is right now, ECM breaks the game.

EDIT2: Even as it stands right now, even if you are handicapped by having no spotters for your LRM support mech, you can still function similar to a direct fire mech if you maintain sight of the enemy. You can play around the handicap. There is no playing around ECM if you are a missile mech without the properly equipped teammates.

Edited by Fate 6, 27 November 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Roland, on 27 November 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Ya, you're misunderstanding. You should read it again. Specifically:
"If you are not being disrupted by an enemy ECM, any hidden Mech on the other team that you hit with a TAG laser will be revealed as if it wasn’t being hidden. This allows you and your teammates to target and lock on it for as long as you can keep the TAG beam trained on it."

See, if you are inside the ECM bubble, then your tag laser won't work.

But the tag laser has a longer range than ECM... So, for instance, I can run around far away from the ECM mech, and target it with my tag laser (or the other mechs he is shielding). Then you, in your fire support, can lock him up and fire missiles at him. And then blamo.

Youre not dumb because I can see you know how to type and respond intelligently.. Your head is just in the sand bro. You dont have to test something to know its ging to be over powered. At least I dont, and yes, Ive worked in the industry and specifically on P&P strategic and tactical sims(but also on card and other board games).


Lets all face it here bro, If PGI had put out a blurb before the patch before detailing the changes to Streak SRMS BEFORE the actual patch, I would have been(and so would everyone else) saying Hey There PGI, slow down Partner! The community only wanted the annoying misses fixed, yall better REALLLLY think about increasing the damage on them, even if it were a bug fix and not an actual Buff.

We all know the pre-fix damage was fine, but the missing was certainly not.


I dont have to mount or play against there version of ECM, as described, to know that its far far from canon and far from being balanced, especially compared to the BAP which is, as another poster said, quite lackluster.

Dr Killinger, on 27 November 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

All you need is a friend with ECM set to countermeasures. Yay teamwork.

Suffer, Streakcats.

Fine for organized 8 mans...what do you think this will do to solo Q though sir? Think about that did ya?

[hammerreborn]

Yoseful Mallad, on 27 November 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

You know what's going to happen... We will start seeing full teams of mech with ECM. And this is going to completely allow them to roll over any other team that tries to use any type of missiles and will allow a full team to run one side of the map virtually undetectable on radar because as long as hey don't get within 200 meters, then enemy mech can't see you on radar so that means no target locking either. ECM is going to be way OP.they have messed with it too much and are allowing it to do things it shouldn't.

Practically impossible to happen, unless one team is relying heavily on awesomes (and missle awesomes at that), or the non-ecm atlas. The matchmaking system won't allow for all 8 to have an ECM to get paired against a catapult, and would more than likely be paired against another team running all mechs with ECM...making the entire match into a wash with a ton and a half disadvantage across the board.

[SpiralRazor]

Solis Obscuri, on 27 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

My biggest concern is that while other T2 tech like Artemis, BAP, NARC, TAG, Gauss Rifles, etc. offer strong advantages, they can generally be countered with T1 designs through good use of terrain and good team tactics (arguably some team combinations of BAP and Artemis may not; I still need to examine that further), from the description of ECM, it sounds like the opposing team will have no indirect fire and no information warfare capabilities unless they are making extensive use of ECM and TAG, both of which are expensive T2 systems that are only available stock on one extremely expensive scout 'mech at this time.

If ECM just negated the other T2 LRM targeting gear and BAP bonuses with one convenient 1.5 ton component, plus maybe reduced sensor range or lock time a little bit, it would be reasonably balanced; however, it's going to be damn difficult to counter even a disorganized enemy team of PUGs if they're mostly running ECM-equipped 'mechs that are nearly invisible to sensors and mostly invulnerable to guided missiles.

If the system functions as described, I can see "flocks" of ECM-equipped lights being extremely hard to survive, and groups of heavy/assault sniper builds "turtling" under an ECM unbrella being nearly impossible to engage at all.

People that have been grinding under the Founders increase are going to take nothing but those mechs capable of ECM, dominate the ECM counter war, and faceroll. That my prediction if it stays that way.

[Captain Midnight]

I'm so glad that the "nerf them out of existence" option on my poll won in the end after all.

Streaks are the WORST part of this game except for LRMs (maybe a tie). The faster they are pushed to the margins of the game (like machine guns and flamers) the better the new player experience will be :-)

[Roland]

Quote

You're right, I hadn't read into that part correctly. However, this still assumes you can maintain line-of-sight AND hit the target for long enough for the LRMs to reach their target. The TAG range is ok, but you will be in range of pretty much every laser and ballistic on the enemy team while you are tagging the enemy. You will die before your team can put much of a dent in them.

Honestly, it won't be much different from just spotting today. The only difference is that mounting a tag laser suddenly has utility, since it means you can spot targets which are using ECM.

Also, I'm pretty sure that tag actually works from even further than its listed range. I'll have to test this tomorrow, but in the past I've tagged folks from much further than 450m. If it functions like most laser weapons, it's "max" range is twice the listed range... and given that tag doesn't actually do damage, the fact that it's damage drops off doesn't really matter. If that's the case, you'll be able to tag targets from 900m out, which is further than you can currently see them on radar anyway.

Will they have to keep a lock on a target? Yep.. which is exactly what they have to do today for you to get missiles on them.

And seriously, it is not like every mech in the freaking game is gonna have ECM... You think that suddenly everyone in the entire game is gonna drive a Jenner D? No one is gonna drive gauss pults any more? Or Cataphracts with AC's? Or anything else? It's just gonna be Jenners swarming your poor defenseless A1?

Play the game, adapt. If it is horrifically unbalanced, then it will be changed. That's how it works.

But the reality is, you are not gonna be able to run an A1 streak-cat like you can today. That's intended. That mech is currently broken, and it's not going to function as effectively in the future. If you cannot accept that, then you will be unhappy.

Missile support will be a perfectly functional thing though. Honestly, ECM will enable you do to NEW stuff in your missile support mech.. Like get locks on enemy mechs, without them necessarily being able to get locks back on you.

[Joe Mallad]

I also want to add that with he addition of ECM as is. I truly hope they think about lowering the cost of all missile types and reloads... For the guys that will continue to use missiles. People were complaining that the price for rearming missiles was way to high for the little damage that they did. Missiles got a few damage buffs as well as helping **** like tag, Narc and Artemis just to now have an OP ECM system basically kill every other system in the game in some way.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 27 November 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[Biruke]

Fate 6, on 27 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Smoke is nowhere near the same. The smoke is in a static location, meaning if you want to prevent missile locks you have to stay still. The smoke also is a deployable and has a cooldown meaning you have to both actively engage it and you don't have it available all the time.

still it's a mediocre solution for lock losing. I constantly get hit out by LRM and the missiles hit the torso always. arms, legs, torso, everything satys in tact, and the center torso is gone in half a minute.

[Dr Killinger]

Fate 6, on 27 November 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Sorry, I thought I was allowed to launch into the game by myself and not be cripplingly handicapped.

SpiralRazor, on 27 November 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Fine for organized 8 mans...what do you think this will do to solo Q though sir? Think about that did ya?

Or organized 2 mans. It's not that much of a stumbling block. A simple solution to your problem would be to hop onto a public teamspeak/mumble server, it takes a few seconds and you can find plenty of friendly people to play with, with no obligation to meet at a specific time or attend practices.

LRM support is already a role dependent on others, and yes, will be even more so once ECM hits. If you refuse to join a voice chat server, perhaps consider a role that doesn't rely on others, such as a brawler. Maybe even play a scout yourself. Be the change you want to see in the world, I think the saying is.

[hammerreborn]

SpiralRazor, on 27 November 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

People that have been grinding under the Founders increase are going to take nothing but those mechs capable of ECM, dominate the ECM counter war, and faceroll. That my prediction if it stays that way.

As opposed to taking nothing but streak equipped mechs recenty, or guass cats prior to that, or customized mechs even before this when it went open beta.

The players with more resources beat the players without...shocking, I know.