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Skill Vs. Skill


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Poll: Skill Weapons (236 member(s) have cast votes)

Should "lock on" weapons be S-Tier alongside "skill based" weapons?

  1. Yes (121 votes [51.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.27%

  2. No (115 votes [48.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.73%

Should SSRM be worse than SRM in all cases?

  1. Yes (76 votes [32.20%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.20%

  2. No (160 votes [67.80%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.80%

Should LRM be worse than direct fire in all cases?

  1. Yes (76 votes [32.20%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.20%

  2. No (160 votes [67.80%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.80%

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#1 Captain Midnight

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM

Okay, so first off let me make it known that I hate SSRM and LRM. I think they require zero skill compared to a weapon with a ballistic arc (AC/PPC) or a laser beam. A weapon you have to aim takes skill, a weapon that locks on and auto-aims for you does not.

Lately, I've noticed a lot of people saying that LRM/SSRM (From here on out referred to as Lock On Weapon Systems or "LOWS") still require skill, just a different kind... Tell me, can ANYONE consistently get headshots with AC/20s on their second day of playing? No? Hell can anyone except a talented and practiced player nail headshots consistently period? Nope! Can ANYONE get 600+ damage with no-rearm artemis DDCs on his second day? Yes. People telling me that damage is "all spread around" are delusional because I've been running a 3xLRM15+Artemis Awesome all day and I have been nailing mediums for like 20% of their health per volley, assaults for 7-11%, averaging 600+ damage for holding down left trigger on a target someone ELSE locks. Teamwork? yeah right, more like easy street. If holding down left trigger is teamwork then I'm Ryan Giggs. I kill tagged lights in two goes in those 3xLRM15s; Real skillful!

I've played a lot of games, and PPCs are hard to use, AC20 headshots are hard to get, AC2 requires a good sense of how to lead a target, UAC5 requires you to watch your crosshairs and make sure you don't double fire and jam on accident unless you REALLY need to burst someone... Even Gauss requires you to be able to aim at your target and even though the lead isn't terribly hard it's hard enough that not EVERYONE can do it. It takes some skill... Holding down left trigger takes no skill and will provide more damage to a team.

My question, as in the poll, is do you think that a LOWS weapon like an SSRM that can't miss, locks on, and all the kid has to do is point in your direction and brush his mouse of your mech once every 2 seconds before the lock breaks to keep firing his no-miss lock on missiles... Should that be anywhere near as good as lasers that require you to keep the whole beam on the target the whole time? Should it be as good as an AC that can easily miss and frequently does miss thanks to server lag?

Should LOWS weapons be as good as weapons that require skill? Should they? I think a weapon should provide performance that correlates to skill. LOWS require ZERO SKILL, every other weapon requires at least a modicum of skill and some require a great deal. Does this community want zero skill weapons to be rewarded?

In my opinion LOWS ought to be the WORST POSSIBLE WEAPONS, with the only reason to use them being that you are too poor of a player to effectively use any other weapon, and as you improve you move on to actual skill based weapons and the LOWS remain a crutch for new players just getting started.

In closing, please don't vote "we need LOWS because jenners are OP so keep LOWS how they are", instead vote to nerf jenners (fix lag shield) AND fix LOWS (nerf them to ****). An SRM2 takes skill to hit, and SSRM2 doesn't, and they both do THE SAME DAMAGE. That just isn't right. (The heat is so negligable on either that no one cares about heat, so shut up).

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 04:27 AM.


#2 ciller

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:30 AM

I think the position you put your "LOWS" in will cause EVERYONE to stop running lrms/srms. If we do what you want we will basically have 2 more weapon systems unused by the players. I do not want this because these weapons (especially lrms) have an important role to play in combat. Take that role away and its no longer quite the same game, itll be just a bunch of people base racing.

I run both skirmisher and lrm support in my guild. They both take skill. I can get both to the top of the charts and make both roles do incredible damage (considering I run an ac20 wang and do 800+ dmg, yeah I know what it takes skill wise to pilot a mech). A bad pilot in an LRM role does low damage against good opponents. I do not agree with your assessment that LOWS are zero skill based weapons and further, I do not agree that they should be "the worst possible weapons". This is just an unfun, troll-ish thing to want and I feel bad that you got killed by LRMS and Streaks so much lately but please, stop your hate.

Edited by ciller, 28 November 2012 - 04:31 AM.


#3 3rdworld

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:32 AM

You can't really compare the SRM2vs the SSRM. The issue arises when assaults that have the tonnage requirements are still picking SSRMs over SRM6s.

IMO, without tag LRMs are still too strong.

Streaks should aim for the body part that the cross-hair is over when they are fired.

I do not like the cruiser-mode weapons being as good as they are. I agree about low/no skill weapons competing with others.

#4 Captain Midnight

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:36 AM

I appreciate that position Ciller but I just don't agree, the only skill required is letting off left trigger before you overheat and letting off left trigger if you don't see hit markers/lose lock.

That's skill? Really? That's not skill at all.

My problem isn't dying to them, it's that I used 3xLRM15s all day long today, won probably 9/10 games in an easy stomp, averaged 500+ damage in a premade where the other 3 guys were running optimal builds as well (If I was teamed with worse people who stole less damage I'd have been averaging 1000+).

My problem is that I want to play a game where the better player wins; the one who aims better. Not the one who holds down left trigger better. Right now with LRMs how they are it's a complete campfest and whoever has the more impatient puggers is very likely to lose, and if the game isn't decided by LRM use it's decided by SSRM use. It takes 10x as much skill to beat a LOWS user than to be a LOWS user and that's being generous to the LOWS user.

The players at the top of the scoreboards who decide the matches are always in LOWS mechs these days unless it was a truly epic pugstomp in which case my single LBX10 Cicada might have top damage (which has happened)

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 04:38 AM.


#5 Redshift2k5

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:41 AM

ECM is going to block all of those targetting locks, while having zero effect on ballistic and energy weapons.

ECM mechs will be everywhere, and that is a big fat counter to all types of lockon-weapons and the mechs that rely on them.

#6 Captain Midnight

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:43 AM

View PostRedshift2k5, on 28 November 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

ECM is going to block all of those targetting locks, while having zero effect on ballistic and energy weapons.

ECM mechs will be everywhere, and that is a big fat counter to all types of lockon-weapons and the mechs that rely on them.


I know, I can't wait. I am so excited for SSRMs to be so useless they are worse than a machine gun, and LRMs won't be much better. It's going to be glorious. The only thing I don't like is that Garth's Jenner is going to get ECM too just because he is a big baby and can't stand nerfing his own mech.

#7 Wolfways

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:44 AM

Thanks for your opinion.

Oh, and in my opinion you're wrong...about everything.

Actually it sounds like you just got killed by missiles so came to the forum to whine.
If you were killed by LRM's then it's your fault for not using cover.
If it was SSRM's then i can understand. They cause too much cockpit shake and smoke to effectively fight back (if they're being boated).

Btw, when using missiles you have to keep your reticle over the target until the missiles hit, which is a lot longer than when firing "skill-based weapons".

#8 Captain Midnight

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:49 AM

View PostWolfways, on 28 November 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Thanks for your opinion.

Oh, and in my opinion you're wrong...about everything.

Actually it sounds like you just got killed by missiles so came to the forum to whine.
If you were killed by LRM's then it's your fault for not using cover.
If it was SSRM's then i can understand. They cause too much cockpit shake and smoke to effectively fight back (if they're being boated).

Btw, when using missiles you have to keep your reticle over the target until the missiles hit, which is a lot longer than when firing "skill-based weapons".


A lot of people said that after the Artemis bug patch, were you one of them? You really think pointing your MOUSE at an enemy mech takes skill? (and it takes 2 seconds of not pointing to lose the lock, and a milisecond of your mouse crossing over them to maintain the lock)

Let me put it this way... I've seen someone with the 4 FPS bug land a volley of missiles. I can't say the same for any other weapon ever because none of the other weapons are so poorly designed and so lacking in skill requirement that even at 4 FPS they could do it.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 04:49 AM.


#9 Bluescuba

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:53 AM

I would vote but i have no idea what the questions relate to.

For example...

WTF is S- Tier???

Should ssrm be worse than srm?... in what way? the best way to kill a ssrm boat is to get in close with a couple of srm6s and the rest of your weapons... the damage output of 2 x srm6 together with some MLs is greater than the damage output of a streakcat

LRMs are a pain its true but I do not think that nerfing them in the manner you suggest is true... ams simply needs to be improved. the best way for this to happen is for mechs in close proximity should beable to data link... so that their ams works together ie no double targeting of incoming missiles.

Edit.

As for ecm... this should only be for specific mech variants... the Atlas DDC, the Raven etc. Not all mechs should be able to mount this. In this regard I think that LRM artemis should only be available for canon long range mechs

Edited by Bluescuba, 28 November 2012 - 04:58 AM.


#10 Tarskin

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:58 AM

The fact that LRM's are getting a 0.1 damage increase kinda says enough *shrug*

#11 3rdworld

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:01 AM

View PostWolfways, on 28 November 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Btw, when using missiles you have to keep your reticle over the target until the missiles hit, which is a lot longer than when firing "skill-based weapons".


So hoping your teammate can keep visuals on a target is personal skill for the lrm boat? neat.

View PostTarskin, on 28 November 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

The fact that LRM's are getting a 0.1 damage increase kinda says enough *shrug*


If you look at the current state of weapon balance I think you will find this statement to be false.

#12 Wolfways

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:03 AM

View PostCaptain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:


A lot of people said that after the Artemis bug patch, were you one of them? You really think pointing your MOUSE at an enemy mech takes skill? (and it takes 2 seconds of not pointing to lose the lock, and a milisecond of your mouse crossing over them to maintain the lock)

Let me put it this way... I've seen someone with the 4 FPS bug land a volley of missiles. I can't say the same for any other weapon ever because none of the other weapons are so poorly designed and so lacking in skill requirement that even at 4 FPS they could do it.

Actually when the Artemis was introduced it was overpowered, and they fixed it asap.
Also, you're the one who's saying that " pointing your MOUSE at an enemy mech takes skill". You're just choosing a weapon system to single out because you don't like them.

And i have had the 4fps bug a few times in my K2 and have stayed on the base to protect it as best i can, which meant hitting enemy mechs with my ERPPC's.

I don't use LRMs anymore (had to to get master xp on my K2) but now they are balanced imo, maybe even a little UP.

#13 Wolfways

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:06 AM

View Post3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:


So hoping your teammate can keep visuals on a target is personal skill for the lrm boat? neat.

As i pug 100% i rarely trust teammates to keep a lock on a target and so nearly always fired on an enemy i was targeting myself. Being able to fire while hidden is just a small bonus imo.

#14 Asmosis

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:08 AM

It doesnt take as much skill to start using lrm/ssrm vs other weapons. It takes just as much skill to master using them effectively as it does other weapons. The A1 streakcat requires you master jumpjet twists, altitude management etc to be a good pilot. Being able to hover in front of a gausscat just above its gauss angle takes about as much practice as leading targets with ac cannons.

To be fair lasers require LESS skill than lrm/ssrms with the exception of PPC's assuming your ping isnt horrible.

ssrms do weigh 50% more than srms, which might not seem like much right now, but thats only because we're stuck with the smallest ssrm launcher.

Edited by Asmosis, 28 November 2012 - 05:10 AM.


#15 Captain Midnight

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostBluescuba, on 28 November 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

I would vote but i have no idea what the questions relate to.

For example...

WTF is S- Tier???

Should ssrm be worse than srm?... in what way? the best way to kill a ssrm boat is to get in close with a couple of srm6s and the rest of your weapons... the damage output of 2 x srm6 together with some MLs is greater than the damage output of a streakcat

LRMs are a pain its true but I do not think that nerfing them in the manner you suggest is true... ams simply needs to be improved. the best way for this to happen is for mechs in close proximity should beable to data link... so that their ams works together ie no double targeting of incoming missiles.

Edit.

As for ecm... this should only be for specific mech variants... the Atlas DDC, the Raven etc. Not all mechs should be able to mount this. In this regard I think that LRM artemis should only be available for canon long range mechs


S-Tier is fighting game terminology for "the best character" usually. Or really any sort of game with imbalance where you sort things on tiers so you can get an even fight (for example an S tier will stomp a D tier just because of imbalance regardless of the skill of the players involved unless there is a HUGE disparity). Usually you pit like tiers against one another, and if you want a low-tier game with two D tier characters you and your buddy know you're on an even playing field. I think a lot of racing games use the terminology too.

Anyways, the reason I didn't list specific nerfs is because I don't care HOW they do it, but what I want is a game where there is absolutely no reason for a player who can land shots with a PPC to pick an LRM over a PPC, period. Or any skill weapon for that matter. I want the only reason to pick a LOWS weapon to be that you can't hit with anything else. Right now, that is the main reason to pick LOWS, but the other reason is that LOWS are actually legitimately better than every other weapon really. LRMs and SSRMs top the damage charts constantly in every match they appear unless they suicide charge solo.

I know ECM is going to nerf LRM/SSRM out of existance and pretty much give me exactly what I want, but this poll is more philosophical. Do you think a weapon that locks on should be as effective as a weapon that doesn't? IMO there should NEVER EVER EVER be a circumance where a LOWS weapon outperforms a skill-based weapon with the sole exception of when a player can't actually land a shot with his skill based weapon because he has no skills, then he would choose a LOWS for the extremely low but guaranteed damage.

ED: Wolfways, LRMs *underpowered*??? hahahahaha you troll! You got me, 5/10 but only because you got me.

As for LRMs taking as much "skill" as a skill weapon? you're lying to yourself to make you feel like an elite mechwarrior when you are in fact total trash. LRMs take zero skills. Not firing when you see them hitting a cliff isn't skill and I'm hard pressed to think of anything else you have to do.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 05:10 AM.


#16 3rdworld

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostWolfways, on 28 November 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

As i pug 100% i rarely trust teammates to keep a lock on a target and so nearly always fired on an enemy i was targeting myself. Being able to fire while hidden is just a small bonus imo.


And the fact that a pilot staying in complete cover from a target and does the same amount of damage as you do, does not gripe you at all?

I only think LRMs need a nerf when fired indirectly. Low risk low rewards. Fired directly I do not have an issue with the damage.

#17 Belorion

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:10 AM

SSRMs and LRMs are fine... SSRMs are getting a slight nerf which should align them more with other weapons. Just wait until SSRM 6 s come out. I predict many intertears will be shed that day.

#18 Kernfeuer

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:14 AM

Lolz another crying tread about those ´Low skill weapons`

So..let us go make things clear..They arent much easier then other weapons...Lrm as example..at long range easy to cover..even on mid range is it possible..and ur have to build in an enorm ammount of amo to be usefull

..so let us look on the baaad baad streaks..are they easy?..yeah an bit..but only dangerous if its more then 2 of it (as intended?)
soo ur complaining about the wrong thing...its not the weapon..its the player who boating this

And By the way..why ur thinking an Laser (as example) where be more difficult to use then rockets?..point..fire..get damage on enemys (exept lagshielding mechs like jenner)

And Ak´s /Gaus Leading is difficult? c´mon seriousley??..dont get it

In fact iam in since mid of closed Beta and have used all of the weapon types (still using ak/gaus in some mechs) and every weapon class has its own strenght and handling..not good or Bad just..different

#19 Asmosis

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:15 AM

^^ dont forget clan LRMs are streak missiles. thats a streak lrm 20 hitting you from 1m - 1000m. the tears that will fall.

Its easy to get a lock with lrms. its HARD to hit a mech 500m+ away, that takes skill unless the pilot is stupid. Skill is more than twitch response, which is what the OP seems to think skill is. Skill is as much about knowing WHEN to fire and WHERE to fire from as it is to click fire.

we've all seen new players firing constant volleys of lrms into upward inclines on caustic or buildings on the other maps. IF lrms were easy, those missiles wouldnt be bouncing around my feet. Lasers are super easy on the other hand. you dont even need a lock! just point click instant damage. you need to hold a ssrm lock down on a target longer than it takes to fire a large laser beam. ssrm lock needs to be dead on as well, none of this "half in circle" bullcrap (which is a laser hitting your arm btw) so intially needs much greater accuracy than lasers. You often need to require lock if your target is a decent pilot.

Edited by Asmosis, 28 November 2012 - 05:20 AM.


#20 Stone Wall

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:15 AM

I can't wait for people use more Brawling mechs. Then we can see who really has this "skill."





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