66 replies to this topic

[Monky]

Good call PGI. See, I even give you credit for it!

[3rdworld]

Mercules, on 28 November 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

On the contrary. I understand that you think you had some "Competitive Play" at some point in time in MWO's Betas. As the group function has been random as to who you drop against you really can't be sure you have ever played against an actual team that would be competition. It is remotely possible that once or twice in Closed Beta your 8 man team dropped against another 8 man team that actually played together more than that night/week, but those matches were extremely rare in my experience. Most of the time when you hopped on Team Speak you grabbed a few people you knew, filled out the rest, and then dropped and saw if you got 8 lonely people, an 8 man team, or something inbetween. Even the 8 man teams were, as I said, PUGs with voice because they gathered on TS 20 minutes ago. Not exactly "competitive".

you have no idea what you are talking about.

Well lets ignore that my last match was barely a month ago and entertain your diatribe. Which to your own admittance you have very little experience in scheduled planned drops, but yet presume to have full knowledge of what I have and have not done.

So as you say they were just pug matches between two groups of people, which everyone by then had realized the raven was inferior. Since then the raven has been nerfed (285 or 245 if you want JJs) and the jenner has been buffed.

What makes you believe the paradigm has shifted? Also quit presuming to know my experience with your apparent lack thereof.

[3rdworld]

Agent of Change, on 28 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

If you read my post you would have known that i said i would run it anyway. because i like ravens, simply asking the question doesn't make me think they weren't before I'm just putting it out there because of how many people i have heard tell me (when i say i use them) that they not.

Running ravens is fine, I am just answering the poll question of is the raven going to be competitive with ecm. I do not believe so as the raven would not be used now in a competitive match, and simply having a slow mech mount ecm in defense is all that is required to nullify the single advantage compared to a laundry list of disadvantages.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 November 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[Kousagi]

Agent of Change, on 28 November 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

biased, hell yeah i'm biased but absolutely in favor of the raven already being viable and this just makes it more so. I even said as much in my OP. The poll simply asks a straight forward question with a yes/no/maybe format, I'm wondering where you got your conclusion from?

Its Biased because the raven 3L is already viable without ECM. Your question is if the raven is now viable due to it getting the ECM, which implys that you currently think the 3L is not viable at this time.

I just never personally liked using the raven, cause I think its got a fugly cockpit. Sadly, I'm now being pushed to use a ugly mech cause of ECM.

[hammerreborn]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Its Biased because the raven 3L is already viable without ECM. Your question is if the raven is now viable due to it getting the ECM, which implys that you currently think the 3L is not viable at this time.

I just never personally liked using the raven, cause I think its got a fugly cockpit. Sadly, I'm now being pushed to use a ugly mech cause of ECM.

Just use a cicada, it's pretty much better in all respects (unless you really want the missle hardpoints).

[Aquilus]

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Running ravens is fine, I am just answering the poll question of is the raven going to be competitive with ecm. I do not believe so as the raven would not be used now in a competitive match, and simply having a slow mech mount ecm in defense is all that is required to nullify the single advantage compared to a laundry list of disadvantages.

The Raven is a whopping 3 km/h or so slower than the Jenners. No ECMs invalidates the latter, so I'd say the Raven or the Ciccada are the optimal choices for the fast mechs come next patch. It'll be annoying to leave my mastered Jenners in the bay, but eh, not much time to play these days anyway

[3rdworld]

Aquilus, on 28 November 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

The Raven is a whopping 3 km/h or so slower than the Jenners. No ECMs invalidates the latter, so I'd say the Raven or the Ciccada are the optimal choices for the fast mechs come next patch. It'll be annoying to leave my mastered Jenners in the bay, but eh, not much time to play these days anyway

[color=#959595]Your ECM in counter mode will:[/color]

• Cancel the effect of one enemy ECM on Mechs (friendly or enemy) within range of your ECM (180 m)
  • However, two enemy ECMs affecting the Mech would require two counter ECMs, three would require three, etc.
• Completely cancel all effects of an ECM in disrupt mode equipped on an enemy Mech that is within range (180 m)
  • Mechs countered in such a way have their ECM symbol replaced with a crossed out version.
    
  • You can only counter one enemy ECM in this manner.
    • I.e. If there are two enemy Mechs with disrupt mode ECMs in range, one will be countered while the other will function normally. But two counter ECMs will counter two disrupt ECMs, etc.

[Aquilus]

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

[color=#959595]Your ECM in counter mode will:[/color]

• Cancel the effect of one enemy ECM on Mechs (friendly or enemy) within range of your ECM (180 m)
  
  • However, two enemy ECMs affecting the Mech would require two counter ECMs, three would require three, etc.
• Completely cancel all effects of an ECM in disrupt mode equipped on an enemy Mech that is within range (180 m)
  
  • Mechs countered in such a way have their ECM symbol replaced with a crossed out version.
    
  • You can only counter one enemy ECM in this manner.
    
    • I.e. If there are two enemy Mechs with disrupt mode ECMs in range, one will be countered while the other will function normally. But two counter ECMs will counter two disrupt ECMs, etc.

Yes, I know how ECM works. How does that have a bearing on Jenners being competetive or not after the next patch?

[Mercules]

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

you have no idea what you are talking about.

Well lets ignore that my last match was barely a month ago and entertain your diatribe. Which to your own admittance you have very little experience in scheduled planned drops, but yet presume to have full knowledge of what I have and have not done.

So as you say they were just pug matches between two groups of people, which everyone by then had realized the raven was inferior. Since then the raven has been nerfed (285 or 245 if you want JJs) and the jenner has been buffed.

What makes you believe the paradigm has shifted? Also quit presuming to know my experience with your apparent lack thereof.

Ah yes, the mystical "everyone". Stand back... Everyone has decided. Was this peer reviewed and validated in the scientific method these tests that allowed Mr. Everyone to come to this conclusion? Can I read the thesis paper online?


I had experienced in drops that were rigged to try and get two particular groups to play each other. From that experience I know it was frustratingly hard to achieve and thus nearly non-existent. The few you likely got in were most likely not what I or most people would consider "competitive play". When Matchmaker version 3 comes out, then we might see that, but up till now, it just didn't exist in a reasonable manner.

[Kousagi]

With speed tweak a raven with a 280 can go 141, which is 1 kph over the speed cap of 140.. so, the 3L is just as fast as a jenner. So its not a slow mech. The Only thing the jenner has over the 3L raven is jump jets... thats it. If you really want to count it, laser hardpoints, but you can work with fewer, ya just have to use slightly bigger lasers, or use them missile hardpoints to their max.

[3rdworld]

Mercules, on 28 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Ah yes, the mystical "everyone". Stand back... Everyone has decided. Was this peer reviewed and validated in the scientific method these tests that allowed Mr. Everyone to come to this conclusion? Can I read the thesis paper online?


I had experienced in drops that were rigged to try and get two particular groups to play each other. From that experience I know it was frustratingly hard to achieve and thus nearly non-existent. The few you likely got in were most likely not what I or most people would consider "competitive play". When Matchmaker version 3 comes out, then we might see that, but up till now, it just didn't exist in a reasonable manner.

Does your rear get soar from you talking out of it?

Aquilus, on 28 November 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Yes, I know how ECM works. How does that have a bearing on Jenners being competetive or not after the next patch?

1 D-DC running in counter mode stops the raven from having any upside compared to a jenner.

[Aquilus]

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

1 D-DC running in counter mode stops the raven from having any upside compared to a jenner.

That's a trivial issue if you're playing in a team. If it's in counter mode, it has no protection from your teams LRMs, simply focus fire it down. If that's not possible, just move to scramble someone else. The D-DC isn't exactly a quick mech.

[Mercules]

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Does your rear get soar from you talking out of it?

Yes, my rear flies... like a jump jet.

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

1 D-DC running in counter mode stops the raven from having any upside compared to a jenner.

Yes, those AS7-D-DCs... damn them being able to run down Ravens with their really fast engi... oh... wait.


While ECM isn't all powerful it does have uses and while an AS7-D-DCs can carry ECM and flip modes, they still have to get close enough to negate the faster mech's ECM. We will have to see how it all breaks down, but I think it more likely the Raven's ECM will be set to Counter mode to block the AS7s Disrupt mode so that their teams LRMs can rip the AS7 to pieces.

[Kousagi]

Mercules, on 28 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I think it more likely the Raven's ECM will be set to Counter mode to block the AS7s Disrupt mode so that their teams LRMs can rip the AS7 to pieces.

If the raven is that close, and not being wreaked by the other team, then why would he wait for LRM support? He would just core out its back faster then the atlas can respond...

[Scytale]

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Does your rear get soar from you talking out of it? 1 D-DC running in counter mode stops the raven from having any upside compared to a jenner.

Ad hominems aside, how did you play competitively in any sort of consistent way?

[3rdworld]

Mercules, on 28 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yes, my rear flies... like a jump jet.




Yes, those AS7-D-DCs... damn them being able to run down Ravens with their really fast engi... oh... wait.


While ECM isn't all powerful it does have uses and while an AS7-D-DCs can carry ECM and flip modes, they still have to get close enough to negate the faster mech's ECM. We will have to see how it all breaks down, but I think it more likely the Raven's ECM will be set to Counter mode to block the AS7s Disrupt mode so that their teams LRMs can rip the AS7 to pieces.

They don't have to run down the raven. The raven isn't needed to provide cover for his own team so what is he going to be doing? ECMing the enemy correct? where it is really easy to strap it on a atlas to protect the brawlers.

Scytale, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Ad hominems aside, how did you play competitively in any sort of consistent way?

Get into a unit that has a team, sign up for RHoD or set up something with other units.

[DraigUK]

PGI finally makes a swift and decent decision. Thumbs up.

[Scytale]

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Get into a unit that has a team, sign up for RHoD or set up something with other units.

I don't follow, though - how could you get consistent competitive play with that sort of set-up?

[3rdworld]

Scytale, on 28 November 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

I don't follow, though - how could you get consistent competitive play with that sort of set-up?

Well you lost me. I don't really know what you're asking.

[dal10]

p00k, on 28 November 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

and i kill commandos all the time in my jenner. not sucking at the game still makes a difference.

but, in the time it's taken me to master 3 jenners with an extra ~80k exp to spare (plus finish basics on 2 jenner variants in closed beta with ~100k exp to spare), i have never been killed by a commando. ever. not even once. in any jenner variant. can you say, in your commando, you've never been killed by a jenner, ever? if you can, my apologies and congratulations

back in closed beta, I regularly would take anywhere from 2-4 jenners by myself, in a commando, and win. 2 I could win about 90% of the time, 4 was a stretch but I have pulled it off before.