339 replies to this topic

[Insidious Johnson]

pcunite, on 13 May 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

For a game like MWO to be fun to me, it has to provide some "suspension of disbelief". What is wrong with giving me the ability to shoot way past 1000m if I have successfully obtained intel on that target? No one is seriously suggesting we can shoot at long range and hit when you can't see a target. LRM's that only travel 630m is dumb. This is the year 3050 for crying out loud! If long range sniping becomes such a huge problem, an onboard computer system could allow time to detect incoming missiles.

Nobody builds mechs on the cheap. Let's stop this silly discussion of balancing to the point of making the game silly. War is not "fair". I favor long range like real life. I don't want a button mashing punch fest game.

Suspension of disbelief, good point. Drive many 30m tall robots?

[DV McKenna]

The best will continue to be the best, the worst will continue to be the worst and blame lags/hacks/cheats/their mothers.

The End.

[Varjen]

I _always_ giggle at ragequitters, regardless of game.

[Kargush]

pcunite, on 13 May 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Nobody builds mechs on the cheap.

[PANZERBUNNY]

pcunite, on 13 May 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

For a game like MWO to be fun to me, it has to provide some "suspension of disbelief". What is wrong with giving me the ability to shoot way past 1000m if I have successfully obtained intel on that target? No one is seriously suggesting we can shoot at long range and hit when you can't see a target. LRM's that only travel 630m is dumb. This is the year 3050 for crying out loud! If long range sniping becomes such a huge problem, an onboard computer system could allow time to detect incoming missiles.

Nobody builds mechs on the cheap. Let's stop this silly discussion of balancing to the point of making the game silly. War is not "fair". I favor long range like real life. I don't want a button mashing punch fest game.

I guess it won't be fun for you.

Of course you'll still download it and more than likely keep playing.

Keep up the whine though. Lots of cheese around to complete the meal.

Funny how you think this game shoudn't be fair. IT'S A GAME! It has to be balanced. Making it so people can be nuked before they even get within engagement range is something that will make it "not fun" to more people than "not fun" for the few that enjoy griefing others constantly across the map.

[Kudzu]

Gremlich Johns, on 13 May 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

One thing I never liked about BT et al is the fact that past 1100m, you can not kill anything. IRL, a tank with modern systems, a 4km kill is normal.

with a 120mm APFSDS round

That is why MW video games suck. In 3049, a mech cannot even shoot something past 2km and hit it.

Bogus. ( id understand that video game physics may limit ranges, but Crysis allows distances out to 8km +.....)

Why even bother with mechs? Obviously it's much more realistic to do a orbital strike, this should be a game where we sit in a chair and press one button to vaporize a city. That sounds like a lot of fun!

[Aegis Kleais]

Gremlich Johns, on 13 May 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

One thing I never liked about BT et al is the fact that past 1100m, you can not kill anything. IRL, a tank with modern systems, a 4km kill is normal.

with a 120mm APFSDS round

That is why MW video games suck. In 3049, a mech cannot even shoot something past 2km and hit it.

Bogus. ( id understand that video game physics may limit ranges, but Crysis allows distances out to 8km +.....)

You DO understand how unfathomably boring this would be right? Bringing real world logic into a fictional world.

For S&G's we did the same thing on THQ's Company of Heroes WWII RTS game, and if Tanks shot at an accurate distance, they would be over 4 WHOLE MAPS AWAY and be picking you off instantly the moment you were on the battlefield.

Real world logic only goes so far in a fiction-based reality.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Kudzu, on 14 May 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Why even bother with mechs? Obviously it's much more realistic to do a orbital strike, this should be a game where we sit in a chair and press one button to vaporize a city. That sounds like a lot of fun!

What part of "dark ghetto future of technology" do people not understand? I support your defense of the "range whiners who need a rangefinder" to do the job for them.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Aegis Kleais™, on 14 May 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

You DO understand how unfathomably boring this would be right? Bringing real world logic into a fictional world.

For S&G's we did the same thing on THQ's Company of Heroes WWII RTS game, and if Tanks shot at an accurate distance, they would be over 4 WHOLE MAPS AWAY and be picking you off instantly the moment you were on the battlefield.

Real world logic only goes so far in a fiction-based reality.

^^^^^

Most games and weapons ranges can be expalined away as "optimal range due to battlefield conditions". These super weapons may be able to shoot 2 miles, but due to conditions on the battlefield will rarely if ever excercise that top ceiling of range. Smoke, disorientation, chaos.

Best to let the game be the game so we can avoid EVERYONE making range fighting rigs, making 60% of the available mechs and loadouts obsolete.

If they wanted a range game they would release 3 mechs and 6 different weapon types and call it a day.

[CyberCrist]

I'm not complaining... I'm happy just to get a MW game

[Lord Perversor]

PANZERBUNNY, on 14 May 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

^^^^^

Most games and weapons ranges can be expalined away as "optimal range due to battlefield conditions". These super weapons may be able to shoot 2 miles, but due to conditions on the battlefield will rarely if ever excercise that top ceiling of range. Smoke, disorientation, chaos.

Best to let the game be the game so we can avoid EVERYONE making range fighting rigs, making 60% of the available mechs and loadouts obsolete.

If they wanted a range game they would release 3 mechs and 6 different weapon types and call it a day.

Pretty much last thing i wish it's a masakari/nova cat/awesome online with PPC all over the map :/

[Aegis Kleais]

I usually break down pilots into 1 of 4 types:

Brawler - A heavy hitter who works to close distance and then use punishing weapons to deliver quick knockouts to enemies.
Harasser - A light Mech, often a Scout, who uses speed to their advantage to get them in and out of advantageous positions.
Sniper - A long-range Mech who doesn't actively seek melee engagements but instead has weapons designed to deliver localized damage over range.
Rangers - A heavy hitter who prefers to stay on the fringes and use long range as long as possible but has modest defense for when short range battles are imminent.

I prefer being the latter. Getting up toe to toe with Brawlers is a bad idea, because they'll wreck you quick. Keep range on them and shell them with long range as much as possible until they get into your perimeter; concentrate fire on the areas of their Mech that hold their in-range weapons to take their sting out.

Harassers and nuisances, but not to be ignored, especially when in numbers. They are of utmost importance and if you can quickly dispatch them, do so, because they can be providing not only positional information about where you are, but targeting as well.

As for Snipers, the calling card of a bad Sniper is one who sticks in a single location and just fires away. Once you have triangulated the Sniper's position, use terrain and quickly take on flanking procedures. Though in real life, games have portrayed Snipers have being deficient in melee range in order to balance them, that isn't the case here; they will have powerful sniping weapons at close ranges, so you'll need to destroy those weapons as soon as possible. Once having done that, the Sniper Mech will be significantly less of a threat, and usually due to sniping weapons being "expensive" in tonnage/crits to place, there is usually no more than 2.

[Howling Mad Murdock]

Recently been playing MechWarrior Commander 2 and that really is a LRM your Mech up to the max and range kill everything. MW4:Mercs seemed to have similar failings, Missile Lock.. fire. Who actually wants to play a game like that 10 years on.... been there done that.....This MechWarrior can offer so much more.

Hopefully the Dev's will continue down the path of what we have seen in the videos with a real mix of weaponry and a nicely balanced combat system so everyone has a different role to play in the battle.

[MonkeyDCecil]

Evinthal, on 10 May 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

I agree completely with this. As previous (MW3/MW4) games have made it into a snipe fest with whoever could pack on the most PPCs/LRMs/Gauss. The ranges needed to be cranked down a notch, not only to get back to the CBT heritage but to make for a more diverse or interesting game. It also makes different 'mechs better for different things, and hopefully will lead to people balancing out lances to help cover each other.

It can still be a snipe fest. Just now it is easier to snipe with PPCs, LRMs, and Gausses. They still have the a longer firing range then most of the other weapons. Maybe we will be able to cove the distance now before we are destroyed. But there will still be jump snipers and hill snipers. And they will still cause a lot of damage before you reach them. The short distance were good for tabletop. It kept the maps small and table size. But for a video game that is not a problem. I personally think they should be more realistic. And all the weapons should have longer ranges then they do. I mean hell a M16 has a longer range then some of these weapons. 640 meters is to short. I can hit a tank at that range with a RPG now a days, with good aim and luck. This is not tabletop and there is no need to restrict the ranges to such a short distance for all the weapons. And it is just stupid to have a minimum distance. Missile do not need 200 meters to arm there warheads. I mean think about it. Just look at some of our real world weapons systems. Lets be a little more realistic. This is not tabletop and I was not looking for a tabletop Mechwarrior. I was looking for the next Mechwarrior game. Now I am still looking forward to this game. And I know it will still be fun.

[MaddMaxx]

MonkeyDCecil, on 14 May 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

It can still be a snipe fest. Just now it is easier to snipe with PPCs, LRMs, and Gausses. They still have the a longer firing range then most of the other weapons. Maybe we will be able to cove the distance now before we are destroyed. But there will still be jump snipers and hill snipers. And they will still cause a lot of damage before you reach them. The short distance were good for tabletop. It kept the maps small and table size. But for a video game that is not a problem. I personally think they should be more realistic. And all the weapons should have longer ranges then they do. I mean hell a M16 has a longer range then some of these weapons. 640 meters is to short. I can hit a tank at that range with a RPG now a days, with good aim and luck. This is not tabletop and there is no need to restrict the ranges to such a short distance for all the weapons. And it is just stupid to have a minimum distance. Missile do not need 200 meters to arm there warheads. I mean think about it. Just look at some of our real world weapons systems. Lets be a little more realistic. This is not tabletop and I was not looking for a tabletop Mechwarrior. I was looking for the next Mechwarrior game. Now I am still looking forward to this game. And I know it will still be fun.

Terrain my good man terrain. If I can move between hillocks and dart between mounds, your Sniper will have a hard time getting a shot off. The old games had limited terrain really. Rolling hills where one was forced to crest hill after hill to get near the high ground, or the 900m of open space between the forces made any attempt to get to them a suicide mission.

What an MWO sniper based Mech should face is indirect missile barrages from a Mech he cannot see nor shoot at and when the missile start to land, they should be very wary that he/she is obviously being watched...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 14 May 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

MaddMaxx, on 14 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Terrain my good man terrain. If I can move between hillocks and dart between mounds, your Sniper will have a hard time getting a shot off. The old games had limited terrain really. Rolling hills where one was forced to crest hill after hill to get near the high ground, or the 900m of open space between the forces made any attempt to get to them a suicide mission.

What an MWO sniper based Mech should face is indirect missile barrages from a Mech he cannot see nor shoot at and when the missile start to land, they should be very wary that he/she is obviously being watched...

Well put.

A great tactic to take on Snipers is to have ECM-equipped Scouts spot the Sniper and relay that to Indirect Fire Support Mechs who can reign on death without need of LOS.

Too many people put emphasis on Heavies and Assaults because they are the power that can bring down an enemy, but Scout lights and Mediums will pose a very mobile threat which I more times often than not will take the opportunity of disengaging my current enemy and killing a Scout when I can just because their ability to propagate data is a tactical Achilles Heel that I want to sever.

[Insidious Johnson]

MaddMaxx, on 14 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Terrain my good man terrain.

Spoken by a true light speed demon driver, amen. To that point I'd like to add TREES! More trees that are their own entity and not a one hit grove of wonders. I always considered trees as part of armor for the mechlab and encourage the use of RAC2 to quickly clear a forest so heavier ordinance is not wasted on wood. Hopefully MWO will enhance that ballistic prerequisite need to mow the forrest of individual trees which are the best transit between hard covers. May the deforrestation be so great that they quit protesting in the real world to come play and protest here.

[Garth Erlam]

Terrain is a big deal. While snipers might love that open water part you've seen of the map we showed, how much do you think they love the 'S' turn other side there? I'll tell you right now that K2's alpha is a lot less intimidating at 50 metres with an Atlas.

[Roh]

I was complaining about the range of LRMs. But that is before I was aware that pretty much all weapons are shorter range going by canon. Which is fine with me. So long as they are along a scale.


Though 630m for giant robots when humans with a simple optic scope can shoot farther and have been able to since LONG before BT ever existed... Seems kinda silly. But that is cool. Should still make for a really fun game.

[Squigles]

As far as I'm concerned, any argument based around making a fictional world cleave more to reality in a video game while forsaking balance is just silly. If you absolutely need to feel that you're driving a super futuristic war machine with realisticly ranged weapons, I have an idea for you...add a 0 to everything in your head. Now your missiles travel 6300 meters, your medium lasers reach 2700 meters, and your super futuristic battlemechs run an easy 600 KM/h+, while your enhanced optics makes everything look closer. =)

As for balance, those saying 630 meters isn't long range are just ignoring the technology (of the fiction) of the time. Figure an average speed of 64.8 KM/h for most mech's not fit to be speed demons. Now hand them a decently hard hitting "longish" range weapon of the era, AC5, AC10, Large laser, PPC.

These weapons will strike from 450-540M. Assuming 2 mechs of equal speed (64.8KM/h), 1 charging and the other equiped with LRM's backpeddling, you'll have a closure rate of aproximately 7m/s, this gives you just over 12 seconds of time on target before someone can respond with an AC 5 or PPC, and a whopping 25 seconds on target before an AC 10 or Large Laser can return fire, and a damn sight longer than that before they can bring the majority of brawling weapons to bear.

Given that it appears you can launch a salvo of LRM's roughly every 3 or 4 seconds, this means you can easily disgorge 25-100% of your missile payload on a target before it can even begin to return fire, depending on how you're loaded. If you're unable to get that kind of time on target because of terrain, it wouldn't have mattered if you had a 1000m range in the 1st place, seems pretty balanced to me.