250 replies to this topic

[zirkonflex]

I've been watching the development of MWO since the 3015 days, extensively playing all MW games as of yet aswell as Living Legends, and I'm very glad the entire thing is coming together so well here.
Huge thanks for Piranha for having the balls to attempt to create this very promising looking title, I'm thrilled and convinced they'll do a good job.
Obviously nitpicking threads have popped up everywhere (especially after the trailer), with most of them being rediculously prejudging towards the game only because of a certain thing (a single weapon's design choice or the current map's layout etc.), but I'd really like to discuss an important general gameplay matter here.

The relation between weapon damage and armour is what I'm on about.

There is obviously different fluff to be taken into account for this, we have the TT game (not 100% translatable as we found out), the novels (even less translatable directly into gameplay) and the previous games, ranging from "much damage/low armour" (MW2) to "much armour, low damage" (MW4), with MW3 somewhere in between.

First things first, I'm very much biased towards the MW2 way of doing it, I'd love to see very hardcore and unforgiving damage, with mechs going down quickly under serious pressure.
I did not like the way it was done in MW4 and also MWLL (to some extend).

It's depicted that way in both TT (to some extend) and the novels. Big weapons (AC20, Gauss etc.) are supposed to pack a serious puch against, let's say, a medium mech. It's often told that an AC20 is able to nearly rip off an entire arm or seriously wreck a torso side in a single hit.

This doesn't mean it's going to be an auto-great for the game, but I still think it should be handled a bit(!) like that.

Why?

1. I see a much more engaging, action packed and thrilling gameplay at the end of this route.
It should never be as extreme as in a real FPS, but making single shots more significant will alter the gameplay in a imho good way.
2. Gone would be the days of mindlessly circling around eachother dumbfiring, with the outcome determined by the contenders weight and pure firepower.
3. Gone would be the days of assaults dominating everything, the lighter mechs would benefit from this damage bias being harder to hit but packing some (now more significant) firepower themselves.
Obiously a real direct alpha would mean lights out for them easily, but that's where the skill comes into play I guess.
4. Ambushes and tactics would be way more viable because as the damaging process is sped up, where your mech actually is on the grid becomes more important, people shouldn't be able to "walk away" from some serious fire like nothing happened because their mech can take 10 PPC before it goes critical.

I really don't want to prejudge the game, but in the IGN trailers gameplay really didn't look like that, somewhat more of the "standing infront of eachother shooting our faces" style. It obviously has to be a mix of things, but right now it seemed rather slow and "unfrightening".


I'd really like to hear some opinions on this general thing, and it would be cool to hear how the devs are planning it, as I felt it was rather important for the feeling of the game.


My solution would probably be to add a "hardcore" mode like in modern day's big shooters, with weapon damage being increased by 50-100% from what we have now (a slider for that would be a amazing).
This would leave the "easy" gameplay for starters and turn the game into a simulation for all the serious mechheads out there.

[Grokmoo]

I have to disagree a bit with you here. If a single alpha strike from an Awesome can take out a light mech, it will seriously undermine the effectiveness of those mechs.

Although there will be some skill involved, if you've played Mechwarrior 4 or Living Legends online, you know that many players will have sufficient skill to land an alpha strike on a mech regardless of that mech's maneuverability. Playing a Jenner, Raven, Cicada, or Commando would be pretty useless if a good shot on the enemy team can immediately take you out in a few seconds.

Also, you can multiply the above several times, since MWO will be heavily favoring team oriented play. If the enemy team has a few heavies in their ranks, then the scout mech will not even be able to get close or be instantly taken out.

[Bullwerk]

I advocate the opposite approach as well. In a world where armor is low and weapons damage high destruction of mechs happens too fast to allow for tactics beyond initial contact to come into play. If armor is high (globally) and weapons are well balanced battles will come down to long term team tactics and change with the ebb and flow of battle.

Now powerful weapons will still be powerful and a skilled pilot may still be able to significant damage with one well placed shot (weakened arm, head, etc) but that should not be the deciding factor in every engagement. In the BT universe the mech is a the master of the battlefield, heavily armored, heavily armed, and mobile. They are not glass canons but walking behemoths that one their own represent an amazing force. The game mechanics should show this as the TT did/does. How many times have you taken out a mech in one hit in TT? Yeah it happens but the random distribution of damage really highlights how robust a mech is... hell it can take a lot of firepower to take down a lone Jenner in TT.

[Angelicon]

I guess I don't see Light or Medium mech gameplay benefiting from having their limbs more easily blown off. Sure increased damage is a two way street, but as you scale damage upward vs armor, the smaller guys lose staying power faster than the heavily armored guys.

Another negative is the frequently one-shotted lights are not going to get much XP/c-bill reward. If they can survive longer and spot for a longer duration, do a bit more damage, etc, they will be better rewarded. I don't really like the idea of about 1/3 of a team going down without earning significant rewards, just because they were lightly armored and took early volleys of fire.

[Melissia]

Personally, I like the slower pace when it comes to damage. It makes light 'mechs more useful.

[CapperDeluxe]

Its interesting you mention MWLL as being "slower", because at its debut release v0.1 the damage/armor values were almost exactly translated from the TableTop, and what resulted was complaints that you just couldn't survive long enough to learn how to play. Sure its satisfying to be on the giving end of a Heavy Gauss Hollander II one-shotting the leg out from under a Shadow Cat in mid-jump and seeing it tumble helplessly to the ground... but on the receiving end it must have been "Seriously! again! This sucks I had no chance I QUIT!" By MWLL v0.2 this got changed because it simply had to.

Now who knows maybe since from what we've seen so far, the so called pinpoint accuracy of previous Mechwarrior games won't be as inherent, so perhaps they can make weapons do more damage because they'll be balanced from not being quite as easy to hit with due to convergence, lining up arms and torso, and the speeds at which the arms and torso move with the crosshairs.

[SilvaDraconis]

Grokmoo, on 11 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I have to disagree a bit with you here. If a single alpha strike from an Awesome can take out a light mech, it will seriously undermine the effectiveness of those mechs. Although there will be some skill involved, if you've played Mechwarrior 4 or Living Legends online, you know that many players will have sufficient skill to land an alpha strike on a mech regardless of that mech's maneuverability. Playing a Jenner, Raven, Cicada, or Commando would be pretty useless if a good shot on the enemy team can immediately take you out in a few seconds. Also, you can multiply the above several times, since MWO will be heavily favoring team oriented play. If the enemy team has a few heavies in their ranks, then the scout mech will not even be able to get close or be instantly taken out.

I have to disagree, slightly. If a light mech is unlucky or unskilled enough to be hit by the entirety of my assault mechs alpha strike and still walks away without limp or flames I'm seriously rethinking my weapons load out because its broken. I don't automatically want to insta-gank lights by making the almighty alpha strike but I do want to reap the rewards in exchange for my heat and lack of speed.

[Melissia]

And why do you need a one hit kill to get that?

hint: you don't.

[Max Grayson]

Grokmoo, on 11 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I have to disagree a bit with you here. If a single alpha strike from an Awesome can take out a light mech, it will seriously undermine the effectiveness of those mechs.

Although there will be some skill involved, if you've played Mechwarrior 4 or Living Legends online, you know that many players will have sufficient skill to land an alpha strike on a mech regardless of that mech's maneuverability. Playing a Jenner, Raven, Cicada, or Commando would be pretty useless if a good shot on the enemy team can immediately take you out in a few seconds.

Also, you can multiply the above several times, since MWO will be heavily favoring team oriented play. If the enemy team has a few heavies in their ranks, then the scout mech will not even be able to get close or be instantly taken out.

Do you mind if i disagree with your position? Not trying to troll you or anything. But here is my counter arguement-----I have no problem with light mechs getting one shottted, if a light mech is in position to be alpha'd then that pilot did something wrong. That being said i do expect a light mech to be able to with stand a shot from a PPC or two. Just not a full on Alpha from a heavy or Assualt

A balanced lance such as below, the job of the light mech is either to egage and destroy the other team scouts or scout for your team. At no time should a light mech be withing firing range of a heavy or assualt unless its a full on rush by that team

12 man lance

2-lights-maybe-Mediums may actually be better scouts depending on map, and electronics
2 to 4-mediums (maybe)
4 to 6-heavies
2 to 4 Assualts

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[Vollstrecker]

Grokmoo, on 11 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I have to disagree a bit with you here. If a single alpha strike from an Awesome can take out a light mech, it will seriously undermine the effectiveness of those mechs.

Although there will be some skill involved, if you've played Mechwarrior 4 or Living Legends online, you know that many players will have sufficient skill to land an alpha strike on a mech regardless of that mech's maneuverability. Playing a Jenner, Raven, Cicada, or Commando would be pretty useless if a good shot on the enemy team can immediately take you out in a few seconds.

Also, you can multiply the above several times, since MWO will be heavily favoring team oriented play. If the enemy team has a few heavies in their ranks, then the scout mech will not even be able to get close or be instantly taken out.

While I agree that scout mechs are liabilities in the sights of an Assault mech, that Jenner or whatever shouldn't be tangling with an Awesome in the first place. You don't use scout mechs on the line, they're either flanking, hitting an objective, or harrying the opponent and then running away to serve as a distraction or to pin them in place while your backup comes for them.

[Melissia]

Quote

if a light mech is in position to be alpha'd then that pilot did something wrong.

So what, if the light 'mech is visible AT ALL the pilot did something wrong?

If an assault 'mech packs itself with tons of large lasers and heat sinks, all its weapons will instantly hit at long(ish?) range. If this kills the light 'mech in one shot, then that means the light 'mech needs to avoid being seen AT ALL in order to survive. Which means the light 'mech basically can't participate in the majority of the game and will not be able to bring any of its weapons to bear except LRMs once the fighting starts.

And who wants to play THAT? If I wanted to play an LRM-only build I'd go play catapult and put LRM-20s on the shoulders.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Ragotag]

I hope nobody confuses the "small 'Mech complex" for low viability -- that being a light 'Mech pilot who fights their light like an assault; all such crying should fall on deaf ears over getting slammed hard if you do that.

I agree with Capper on this one, and choose to play the "Wait for Beta" card here. While past MW titles have had issues, let's see how PGI handled this in open beta and *then* begin posting our concerns -- I'm sure the Dev's will be more receptive then.

[Max Grayson]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

So what, if the light 'mech is visible AT ALL the pilot did something wrong?

If an assault 'mech packs itself with tons of large lasers and heat sinks, all its weapons will instantly hit at long(ish?) range. If this kills the light 'mech in one shot, then that means the light 'mech needs to avoid being seen AT ALL in order to survive. Which means the light 'mech basically can't participate in the majority of the game and will not be able to bring any of its weapons to bear except LRMs once the fighting starts.

And who wants to play THAT? If I wanted to play an LRM-only build I'd go play catapult and put LRM-20s on the shoulders.

Well thats exactly my point, its called role warfare, if a player acutally wants to fight other mechs better drive a medium, heavy or assualty. Either play a scout like you should or play a heavier mech........or there is always hello kitty online

as someone mentioned this is NOT TT, or the MW series this is MWO with role warfare

Edit: at first i was going to fix the spelling of "assault" but assualty appeals to me for some reason

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[Melissia]

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Well that exactly my point, its called role warfare

There's a difference between "role warfare" and "hey, you picked a light mech, so **** off".

Only a very miniscule number of light 'mechs are designed to be pure non-combat scouts. None of them have been introduced yet.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[Kargush]

I love the unspoken assumption that every light will be alone, that all fights will be one on one, and that the lights won't have a team to back them up.

Sure, it sucks to be taken out because your Raven took 3 ppcs to the CT. But why is said Raven going up against an Awesome instead of hanging back and waiting? Because the pilot is an *****. This is a team game, we're not Clanners in a Circle of Equals. "Oh, but if the light is spotted, he's dead!" Yes, and? He's got terrain, he's got his smaller size. If he's dumb enough to crest a hill and skyline himself, he deserves to get shot down. Same with an assault who thinks he can take on a lance of heavies on his own. Or a heavy who thinks that a pack of lights can't damage him.

Some heavies and even assault are pitifully armoured, no more than mediums in some cases. They're slower than lights. They'll have to take some care too. And that is fine. That's how it is in the tabletop game, that's how it is in the fiction.

Lights have speed. They have smaller size. They should learn to use it, instead of getting a get-out-of-jail card just because someone decided to cry about "being viable." Lights are for recon, for spotting, for intel, not for tanking or assaults.

This is supposedly a game that is going to reward skill. Let it stay that way.

[Max Grayson]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

There's a difference between "role warfare" and "hey, you picked a light mech, so **** off".

Only a very miniscule number of light 'mechs are designed to be pure non-combat scouts. None of them have been introduced yet.

And I hope you are right, I hope light mechs do have a place in game, like really good enemy spotting electronics and probably very low radar signatures to get close to enemy without being spotted. and also hunting the other teams scouts will involve combat

I hope though that the balance in the game never allows for a light mech to go toe to toe with a heavy lance; thats not how it was in cannon or the mech warrior series. If a player wants to fight head to head pick a medium, heavy or assualt and go to town

I is confused on the last part as lights have been introduced but maybe i lost something in translation

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Sure, it sucks to be taken out because your Raven took 3 ppcs to the CT. But why is said Raven going up against an Awesome instead of hanging back and waiting?

Because the PPCs are very long ranged, high damage, spammable weapons. combined with poor game deisgn to allow for easy one-shotting when people have only one "life" per match.

You try to claim light 'mech pilots are whining, but all I see from you is whining from an assault 'mech player that wants to play the game in easy mode.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Because the PPCs are very long ranged, high damage, spammable weapons. combined with poor game deisgn to allow for easy one-shotting when people have only one "life" per match.

I swear, sometimes it's like people think there will be no heat, no flight-time, no cool downs, and the entire battlefield will be a large open plain.

Yes, that'd be poor design. They aren't doing poor design, however.

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

You try to claim light 'mech pilots are whining, but all I see from you is whining from an assault 'mech player that wants to play the game in easy mode.

Curious, I wasn't aware that Hunchbacks were assaults.

Edited by kargush, 11 May 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yes, that'd be poor design. They aren't doing poor design, however.

Right, that's why there's been no evidence of one hit kill alpha strikes either-- they're trying to avoid bad game design.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[Max Grayson]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Because the PPCs are very long ranged, high damage, spammable weapons. combined with poor game deisgn to allow for easy one-shotting when people have only one "life" per match.

You try to claim light 'mech pilots are whining, but all I see from you is whining from an assault 'mech player that wants to play the game in easy mode.

You can not honestly be saying you want light mechs to be able to withstand 2 or 3 alphas from a heavy or assualt mech and keep going?......are you?

I think you may have a difference of opinion on the correct play style for a light mech then a few of us in these forums, but thats your right. However you may find driving a medium or fast heavy more to your play style

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 12:50 PM.